Universal 10-string, no bottom

Jon Kostal · From: Westmont, Illinois, USA

Has anyone made a U10, minus the 2 bottom strings? I have a U12 and find I just don't use those 2 strings. It would be fairly simple to add a few pedals, and a knee and be good to go. I just was curious to see if anyone has done this, and how do you like it?

Jon

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Jon
Uncle Jons Music

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

I would suspect, from your comments, that you don't really play much sixth tuning. You'd most likely find where those low notes come in really handy if you did. I am amazed at how many players who only play E9 lug around a double 10. By the same token, if you don't really play the low notes it doesn't make sense to have them there.

Since I play a lot of sixth tuning on my U-12 I use those strings all the time and would not want to lose them. I did add a C#/D in the 9th string position and dropped the bottom B for a while, but went back to the tuning that let me play the C6/B6 style I'm accustomed to, in addition to having many of the E9 patterns available in a lower octave.

If you pull two strings off your U-12 it will NO LONGER BE A UNIVERSAL TUNING. The whole point is to be able to play both E9 and C6 on a single tuning -- at least that's what my dictionary says.

There are people who have experimented with 10 string 'universal' tunings -- most notable being Jan Visser in Europe. I do not consider his tuning a true universal setup, since the C6 end of things suffers from losing the low chord voicings and low tonic notes for the B6 and E9 chords.

That's how I see it.

If you want to play a 10 string E9, get a 10 string guitar. You'll probably have little trouble selling your U-12.

Good luck.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

This a neat discussion:
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/010449.html

Ernie Pollock's setup is

here

Ernie Pollock · From: Mt Savage, Md USA

Yeah, guys, my E9th tuning is great, it give you the 'power chords' like the guitar player use, put some distortion on that & you got some great rock & roll backup chords. I wonder for many years why the 9th string was not taken out & the 10th moved up, opening up the addtional bass note. Of course, I still have the 9th note 'D' as you can see in my tuning above. Try it, if you want to do so chord backup for the rock & roll stuff, your gonna love this tuning!! OH, by the way I do this with a GFI Economy 'Pull Release' changer, works great!

Ernie Pollock

ERNIES MUSIC http://www.hereintown.net/~shobud75/stock.htm

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Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Yeah Ernie. I play 12 string universal and I DO use the universal but if I were to consider 10 string I just wouldn't want to do without the bottom that I have come to rely on for R & B vamps. I have an old 10 string that I am considering trying your setup on. The biggest problem is that I am torn----on my things-to-do list is "spend time on the 10 string to stay familiar with the traditional setup." So I'm not sure what I will do. But your setup really got me to thinking.

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Jon,
I have an S10U and and an S8U, and play swing on them all the time.
Whatever you think you want, go for it!
Universal rules!

Ernie Pollock · From: Mt Savage, Md USA

Jon
You can always set it up & then change it back if you don't like it. as far as playing the standard with the usual setup, I do it all the time with no problem. Since you are a universal player you should be at ease with my tuning.

Ernie Pollock

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Marco Schouten · From: Amsterdam, The Netherlands

Jan Visser of The Netherlands developed a 10-string universal tuning.
You can see it on his website. http://www.promotamusic.com/

Click on Jan Visser, and than on VI Tuning and setup.

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Steelin' Greetings
Marco Schouten
Sho-Bud LLG; Guyatone 6 string lap steel; John Pearse bar; Emmons bar; Evans SE200 amp

T. C. Furlong · From: Lake County, Illinois, USA

Marco,

Thanks for the link. Once I figured out which zijn pedalen and which zijn kniehefbomen, the coolness of Jan's tuning became apparent. I could probably translate the Dutch comments (very slow going for a monolinguist like me) but it would be great if someone could supply English text.

Jon,

Years ago, Ron Elliot showed me a simple change that might get you part of the way there. One pedal (or knee) lowers 10 to an A, 9 to a D, and raises 6 to an A, 5 to a C# and 3 to an A. It sounds totally cool while changing. the lower strings are moving down while the higher strings move up.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, Buddy Emmons played C6th type stuff on E9th for a while on sessions during the 80's. At the time, I remember thinking that the voicings stood out in the mix better than if the same things were played on C6th.

TC

Nic du Toit · From: Milnerton, Cape, South Africa

OK, HERE IS THE TRANSLATION:

Jan Visser’s 10-string universal tuning and pedal set up

A, B, C, 4, 5, 6 and 7 are pedals.
D, E, F, H, J, K and L are knee levers.

(SEE THE DIAGRAM ON THE WEB SITE)

(E) means, pedal 5 raises to E if the E-lever is engaged.

E* means: low E (one octave lower than the 8th string).

-4 (minus 4) means, the A-pedal lowers 7th string 4 Hertz.

Jan uses the J-lever for modern licks using the 1st string.
With A and B pedals engaged (this is open A6) the J-lever creates effects on string 7 similar to the first pedal use on standard C6th.

Jan uses the K-lever with the A-pedal to create an A7 open tuning on strings 4,5,6,8,9 and 10.

Jan uses a .010 for the 3rd string. String 10 needs a .050W although a .048 might sound a bit better. Not all changers can lower A to low E with a thinner string.

Jan developed and invented this tuning in 1989 and had it registered without the J and K levers. With the J and K levers Jan calls this the “Universal-10 Extended” tuning.

Translation: Peter

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Nic du Toit
1970 Rosewood P/P Emmons D10 Fatback 8x4
Peavey Session 500 unmodfied

My CD "Nightmare on Emmons Steel"
Click here to E-mail us.

[This message was edited by Nic du Toit on 05 September 2005 at 12:13 PM.]

Jon Kostal · From: Westmont, Illinois, USA

Thanks for all your comments. After getting slapped around by Larry Bell, I realize he is right. I'll keep my U12, and work on the 6th portion of it. I was just plunkin' around on it, using the LOW strings, and I see what you mean. Thanks, Ernie. Your tuning is cool, but is not really what I was looking for. Jan Visser's tuning is interesting also, but as long as I have my U12, I'm gonna use it. I realize now it has all I ever wanted. My tuning is very similar to Danny Naccarato's. I removed a lot of hardware when I changed to 6 pedals, cleaned up the underside nicely, and it's really fun to play. Thanks again to everyone.

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Jon
Uncle Jons Music

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

It was tough love, Jon

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Jon Kostal · From: Westmont, Illinois, USA

And I took it like a man. Thanks, Larry.

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Jon
Uncle Jons Music

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

Ernie, your tuning encouraged me to try an extended bass on my S10 and I love it.
Mine goes down to lo E, but after looking at Visser's and Naccarato's tunings, I'm wondering what I'm missing without the F#, which had seemed useless to me, as a beginner.
Can anyone explain why the F#? Silly question, maybe, like 'what can you do with a B...?'

David Doggett · Posted 6 Sep 2005 8:11 am

F# is the II of the E scale. With that string, and the D# (or 7th note of the scale) on string 2, and the A and B pedals you can play an entire scale at any given fret, without moving the bar. That is useful for all sorts of melodies and harmonies. The most obvious harmony is a 9 chord. A simple and beautiful ending is a Sus2 or Sus9 that resolves to the I. The F# also becomes the root of the IIm with the B and C pedals. Also, that F# on the 7th string becomes the 6 of an A6 chord with the A and B pedals down. This is how you play Western swing on E9. If you have a knee lever that takes the F# to G, that gives you the dominant 7th with the A and B pedals down. One could go on and on. That 7th string F# is an indispensible part of the E9 neck, and in fact gives it its name.

Nic du Toit · From: Milnerton, Cape, South Africa

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Nic du Toit
1970 Rosewood P/P Emmons D10 Fatback 8x4
Peavey Session 500 unmodfied

My CD "Nightmare on Emmons Steel"
Click here to E-mail us.

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

Thanks, David. That gives me a new analysis of my setup, and I'll rethink it.
I get the ninth mostly from the raised 4th string, which along with the raised 5th is more oriental than western, which is where I gravitate to.
I thought the 9th terminology came from the top F#, but I see now it's integrated througout the tuning.
I sure would miss my E on the 7th string though.

David Doggett · Posted 7 Sep 2005 5:40 am

That's why most universals have 12 strings. It's true I don't use the lowest strings much for country lead, but for everything else I play (rockabilly, blues, jazz, classical), they are indispensible.

Incidentally, the 7th string F# was in the E9 tuning from the beginning, when it was only 8 strings, what are now strings 3-10. The F# and D# on strings 1 and 2 came later.

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

I've seen guys string up S14U's as S12U's, but not S12U's as S10U's.
My 8, 10, and 12 string steels are all set up as Uni's, with no less than 5x4.

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