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Author Topic:  Push pull tuning issue
Karen Sarkisian


From:
Boston, MA, USA
Post  Posted 11 Feb 2018 5:07 pm    
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Wondering if someone could help me with a tuning issue I'm having on one of my PP guitars. I'm tuning the 10th string pedals down at the keyhead to C#,then no pedals at the changer to B. When I step on the pedals again the string comes up sharp of C#.
Not sure what's causing this and would appreciate some help. I don't have a B lower on the guita and, this is the only pull the string has. The 5th string is fine also. Thanks !
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Jack Goodson


From:
new brockton,alabama (home of me and don helms
Post  Posted 11 Feb 2018 5:48 pm     Pp tuning?
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Karen, first of all make sure that both fingers touch the body at exactly the same time, also make sure that there is a little slack in both strings when pedal is up....if that doe,s not fix it, instal a new string....thanks jack
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Jack Goodson


From:
new brockton,alabama (home of me and don helms
Post  Posted 11 Feb 2018 5:51 pm     Pp?
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You might also want to check and make sure the bell cranks at tight....jack
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robert kramer


From:
Nashville TN
Post  Posted 11 Feb 2018 5:56 pm    
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Turn the guitar over and loosen the collar on the 10th string. Turn the guitar upright and tune the open 10th string to "B." Now reach under the guitar and pull the 10th string raise finger and tune your "C#" note a few beats sharp with the tuning peg. Let that go and tune the open string to "B" with the Allen wrench. Keep doing that until it's coming back like you want it.

Then turn the guitar over and adjust and tighten the 10th string collar so it pulls the finger evenly with the 5th string raise i.e. both fingers at the changer hit the body at the same time as you pull down on the A pedal with your hand. It might take a couple tries. When it's right you will see it and you also hear it stop at the body.

This is normal maintenance for this guitar and it might take a couple tries at first. It's all good because you can adjust these guitars just like you want them. When everything is right - take a wrench and tighten you Allen screw (tighter than hand tight).

If this doesn't work - follow this procedure with the 5th string, also.
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Tony Glassman


From:
The Great Northwest
Post  Posted 11 Feb 2018 7:27 pm    
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Karen, see The Wilderness Guide for Push-pulls, which is a "sticky" in the Steel Guitar section. It gives you a systematic approach to P/P Maintainance & troubleshooting.

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=205028
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Karen Sarkisian


From:
Boston, MA, USA
Post  Posted 12 Feb 2018 5:16 am    
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Thanks will report back !
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Norman Evans


From:
Tennessee
Post  Posted 12 Feb 2018 8:07 am    
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Make sure the pedal stop is timed with the finger bottoming out on the body also.
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Damir Besic


From:
Nashville,TN.
Post  Posted 12 Feb 2018 1:20 pm    
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buy an all pull guitar...
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robert kramer


From:
Nashville TN
Post  Posted 12 Feb 2018 4:25 pm    
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Mr. Evans mentioned what I forgot to. The pedal stop is part of the overall adjustment. The pedal stop adjusts with the same Allen wrench that tunes the changer. As Mr. Evans said - it should hit at the same time the fingers stop at the body. When it’s right you will hear a “thunk” when you pull down on the pedal with your hand. Also lightly oil with 3 in One Oil oil between the roller nuts. Use a small water color paint brush. Less is more. Is this an S-10? One of the best designed steels ever.
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Jack Stanton


From:
Somewhere in the swamps of Jersey
Post  Posted 12 Feb 2018 5:32 pm    
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Damir,
I have a Legrand and I love it, but if it weren't for splits the thought of buying an all pull guitar wouldn't cross my mind for a second...
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Damir Besic


From:
Nashville,TN.
Post  Posted 12 Feb 2018 5:48 pm    
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I’m not going to get sucked into another endless all pull/push pull debate, if someone has a problem dealing with push pull mechanics, best thing is to buy an all pull guitar and have fun instead of frustration...
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Dave Magram


From:
San Jose, California, USA
Post  Posted 12 Feb 2018 5:58 pm    
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Hi Karen,

I'd highly recommend Clem Schmitz's bargain-priced booklet "Methodology And Practice In Pedal Steel Guitar". Clem used to own a steel guitar store and repair shop in Minneapolis.

The booklet shows how to make simple adjustments or even take the entire guitar apart and put it back together. In his booklet, Clem explains step by step (with photos) exactly how to disassemble, re-assemble, and adjust push-pull guitars with several clever little tricks that would take a very long time to figure out.

He usually sells the booklet on eBay listed as "Pedal Steel Guitar Methodology P/P Guide Booklet" for $15.
He also sells a combo package of the book and 2 DVDs as " Pedal Steel Guitar Methodology P/P Book & DVD's Package" for $20.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pedal-Steel-Guitar-METHODOLOGY-P-P-Book-DVDs-Package-/280598597396?hash=item4154facf14:m:mq3a0o4iYsHWH3NaXQmX_lQ

I almost never need it, but it’s great to have for the rare time when something does go wrong, and you have to leave for a gig in the next 30 minutes.

If you can't find it on e-Bay, you can contact Clem at: freedomsauce@bellsouth.net


-Dave
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robert kramer


From:
Nashville TN
Post  Posted 12 Feb 2018 9:01 pm    
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Miss Karen - I thought of a possible quick fix. You could also try tuning the raise flat and see if that compensates for the note coming back sharp. Worth a try before getting the wrenches out. But ultimately - the raises and the pedal stop should be hitting at the same time.
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K Maul


From:
Mechanicville NY/Hobe Sound FL
Post  Posted 12 Feb 2018 10:23 pm    
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If the problem persists....Tommy Cass.
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Henry Matthews


From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
Post  Posted 13 Feb 2018 9:20 am    
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Jack Stanton wrote:
Damir,
I have a Legrand and I love it, but if it weren't for splits the thought of buying an all pull guitar wouldn't cross my mind for a second...


Push pulls can have splits and they are adjustable. I have on on my 6th string for a half and a whole note lower. They just work a little different.
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LTD amp, Nashville 400 amp, Hilton pedal, BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.
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Jack Hanson


From:
San Luis Valley, USA
Post  Posted 13 Feb 2018 10:09 am    
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Karen, you've likely already checked this, but in case you haven't...

Could there be a broken string end hanging up in the changer? My old '73 #1714D once exhibited a similar malaise and it was fine after I located and removed the ball end of a broken string.
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Jack Stanton


From:
Somewhere in the swamps of Jersey
Post  Posted 13 Feb 2018 11:00 am    
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Henry,
Does your split on the sixth string work independently or do you have to use the A pedal with it?
If it's Independent, could you elaborate on how you do it? Thanks
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Henry Matthews


From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
Post  Posted 13 Feb 2018 11:28 am    
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You have to use A pedal, its what they been calling a fake split but I think its real, lol. There are several moves like minor that you can't get with it but I always use it with A pedal anyway.
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Henry Matthews

D-10 1975 Emmons p/p Black Woodneck Bolt-on
LTD amp, Nashville 400 amp, Hilton pedal, BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.
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Henry Matthews


From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
Post  Posted 13 Feb 2018 11:33 am    
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Damir Besic wrote:
I’m not going to get sucked into another endless all pull/push pull debate, if someone has a problem dealing with push pull mechanics, best thing is to buy an all pull guitar and have fun instead of frustration...


I totally agree 100% with Damir. If you don't have a full understanding how a push pull works and how to work on them, just go to an all pull. I bet I have worked on at least 5 already this year that were screwed up just because someone started twisting on stuff. Another alternative, have a neighbor that does know how to work on them when you mess it up, lol.
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Henry Matthews

D-10 1975 Emmons p/p Black Woodneck Bolt-on
LTD amp, Nashville 400 amp, Hilton pedal, BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.
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Mike Scaggs


From:
Nashville, TN
Post  Posted 13 Feb 2018 11:43 am    
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Your a good man Henry Matthews
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Donny Hinson


From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
Post  Posted 13 Feb 2018 7:19 pm    
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Damir Besic wrote:
buy an all pull guitar...


Bingo! Mr. Green
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Jack Goodson


From:
new brockton,alabama (home of me and don helms
Post  Posted 13 Feb 2018 7:25 pm     Fix a pp?
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I know how to fix the pp problem, just bring them that are hard to play, will not tune right, etc, etc, just dump them all in front of my house and I will dispose of them for free....thanks jack
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Dan Robinson


From:
Colorado, USA
Post  Posted 13 Feb 2018 8:05 pm    
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Damir Besic wrote:
buy an all pull guitar...


Ha, ha! If it's the guitar I saw Karen play a couple of months ago, I don't think that's gonna happen. Laughing
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Tony Prior


From:
Charlotte NC..
Post  Posted 14 Feb 2018 1:05 am    
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while I am not going to join the fray of which is better, a P Pull or ALL Pull, I will say that the Push Pulls are different. Not harder to set up, different.

Each of us have had slight "pitch issues " with the P Pulls, they are easy to overcome. Turn the guitar upside down and visually WATCH whats happening with the strings that are not reaching pitch. More often than not you can see whats happening and WHY it is not. A simple adjustment of a collar may be all that is needed. Maybe even a string change to the proper gauge. This is not brain science but it is Steel Guitar science !

Bob K above states a solution.

recommending an ALL PULL is not a simple solution as we have just as many players asking the same questions with regard to ALL PULL guitars not bringing notes to pitch. They are not exempt.

Not everyone will take the time to learn how a Push Pull works especially if they are used to an ALL PULL.

Instead of telling Karen to get rid of the guitar, how about we offer advice on how to get to a solution !

Me, I say turn it over, watch what happens, pay attention to the string thats causing pitch issues, make slight adjustments that will correct it. Most of us keep turning the end cap adjust screws which in most cases will not resolve the issue because something else is causing the issue, like a collar adjust or a loose bell crank. Maybe even a bad string or wrong gauge.

If a string is not reaching pitch, LOOK to see if the changer finger is actually striking the cap screw, it probably is not, yet we keep adjusting. Many times a slight collar adjust allows for PUSHING the finger a tad further.

Now regarding the guitars, at some point the player of a Push Pull connects with the guitar and is willing to live with some oddity's because once it is set-up it's hard to beat. Now I'm not saying they are better I'm saying that many players can "hear" a sweet spot response from the guitar that they connect with. And they ain't getting rid of that anytime soon. Suggesting to someone to get rid of it is not what they are asking. Find out why your child is crying, don't drop them off at the Bus station ! Very Happy

Personally, my 81 Push Pull has a response from around the 7th fret DOWN which is remarkably different than my 95 Legrande II. The Legrande is not bad, just different. Kinda like a Bass player, they will pick up a Bass and play it unplugged under the 5th fret, if it talks to them, they keep it, if it doesn't, they put it back on the rack.
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Henry Matthews


From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
Post  Posted 14 Feb 2018 9:45 am    
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Great advice from Mr Prior
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Henry Matthews

D-10 1975 Emmons p/p Black Woodneck Bolt-on
LTD amp, Nashville 400 amp, Hilton pedal, BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.
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