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Author Topic:  E9 4x5 Copedent Thoughts?
Baron Collins-Hill


From:
Maine, USA
Post Posted 8 Feb 2018 6:47 am     Reply with quote

There's a good chance I will be ordering a Zum Encore from Doug when he starts taking orders again, and I will go with a 4x5. Emmons with a Franklin pedal at 0.

Here's what I have so far, with one big question being RKL. I've put a couple options down and would love opinions, along with any thoughts on what looks blatantly like a bad idea or other ideas I should strongly consider.







Thanks very much,
Baron
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Peter Nylund


From:
Finland
Post Posted 8 Feb 2018 7:17 am     Reply with quote

This would be my take on a 4x5 setup

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DG Whitley


From:
Gone
Post Posted 8 Feb 2018 7:17 am     Reply with quote

Just my two cents, but I would go with the RKL3 configuration. That seems to be the most popular these days and opens up a lot of cool licks.
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Richard Sinkler


From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Oakdale, California
Post Posted 8 Feb 2018 10:04 am     Reply with quote

RKL3 for me too.
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Steve Leal


From:
Laguna Niguel CA, USA
Post Posted 8 Feb 2018 2:55 pm     Reply with quote

Hi Baron,

With your P0 setup with the Franklin change, if you step on P0 and P1 together, string 5 and 10 lower and raise should cancel each other out - leaving you with G# to F# only drop. No need for G# to F# to be on another lever, right.

Your RKL3 idea looks like best option ... you can even just raise string 7 a half step along with string 1 whole step and string 2 half step. With proper setup, you should be able to pull string 1 and 7 a whole step - while achieving a half step with the feel stop from string 2 raise.

Personally, I like to lower 5 and 10 Bs to Bb on a knee lever, and put your RKL3 idea on your vertical.

Let us know how it turns out!
Stephen
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Roger Rettig


From:
An Englishman in Naples, FL
Post Posted 8 Feb 2018 3:14 pm     Reply with quote

I like to lower my Bs on RKL and I have your 'RKL option 3' on my vertical.

I don't care for the 'Franklin' pedal and prefer the 'Isaacs' (raising the 5th to C# and the 6th to A). Otherwise yours looks good.

I'd go with option 3, though. It's more useful than it first appears.
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Richard Sinkler


From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Oakdale, California
Post Posted 8 Feb 2018 4:40 pm     Reply with quote

Steve Leal wrote:
Hi Baron,

With your P0 setup with the Franklin change, if you step on P0 and P1 together, string 5 and 10 lower and raise should cancel each other out - leaving you with G# to F# only drop. No need for G# to F# to be on another lever, right.

Your RKL3 idea looks like best option ... you can even just raise string 7 a half step along with string 1 whole step and string 2 half step. With proper setup, you should be able to pull string 1 and 7 a whole step - while achieving a half step with the feel stop from string 2 raise.

Personally, I like to lower 5 and 10 Bs to Bb on a knee lever, and put your RKL3 idea on your vertical.

Let us know how it turns out!
Stephen


I have to disagree with the bolded statement. While they theoretically cancel each other out, the resulting B notes may not be in tune, creating a need for compensators. I just think the 6th string lower is better on a knee lever (and on the other knee from 4th & 8th string lowers).
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Steve Leal


From:
Laguna Niguel CA, USA
Post Posted 8 Feb 2018 5:07 pm     Reply with quote

Hi Richard. I tried it adding the Franklin pedal next to my A pedal and you are correct, the B note wasn’t perfectly in tune. On my guitar, it was somewhat close and served the purpose for a resolve type lick. I didn’t keep that change on my guitar too long. Right now I use my zero pedal to lower G# to F# on string 6, and lower G# to G on string 3 for an occassional Mooney lick.

Roger, what is the purpose of the “Isaacs” change? Why not just press pedals A and B together? I’ve not heard of that change, so curious.
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Roger Rettig


From:
An Englishman in Naples, FL
Post Posted 8 Feb 2018 5:16 pm     Reply with quote

In my opinion, Steve, it's a big asset to E9. If you do as you suggest then both B-strings and both G# strings would be raised.

With the Isaacs pedal I can play an A chord (zero fret/strings 6,5,4) but my 10th string isn't raised and stays a B. That is an extremely useful device - playing a '4' chord over a '5' in the bass.

Equally, engaging my Isaacs pedal and playing 6,5,4,3 gives me a nice major-7th inversion.

It's far more use to me than the 'Franklin' change.
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Baron Collins-Hill


From:
Maine, USA
Post Posted 9 Feb 2018 6:45 am     Reply with quote

Thanks everyone! Looks like option 3 is a clear winner.

Peter Nylund wrote:
This would be my take on a 4x5 setup


Thanks for this Peter. It looks like you have all the same ideas as my 4x5 with some of the changes distributed across different strings. You've taken the F# change out of the Franklin pedal and added it to RKL and taken the low G# change over to the RKR.

Is there a way you can talk about your copedent that would make sense to someone with a good background of theory but new to the instrument?

Thanks again for all your help!
Baron
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John Sluszny


From:
Brussels, Belgium
Post Posted 9 Feb 2018 4:46 pm     Reply with quote

Peter Nylund wrote:
This would be my take on a 4x5 setup

RKR F# to G# ? Why not F# to G ? Thanks.
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Ben Waligoske


From:
Denver, CO
Post Posted 9 Feb 2018 6:19 pm     Reply with quote

FWIW, I have the exact same Encore except I reverse my inward knees, so RKL lowers my E's... and my LKR is the configuration of your RKL3 option listed. No complaints. If anything, I've contemplated adding a 6th string half tone lower instead of the 7th string raise... but I haven't gotten too adventurous with the thought yet.

Great guitars, whatever you decide...
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Jim Morris


From:
Cincinnati Ohio, USA
Post Posted 9 Feb 2018 6:34 pm     Reply with quote

Might I suggest only lowering 5 and 6 with your 0 pedal and lower 10 with 2 and 9... makes for some nice voicing

I also raise 7 a while with the 1 and 2 whole/half raise (respectively)

6 lower, 7 raise... there are different schools of.thought on that.
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Jim Morris


From:
Cincinnati Ohio, USA
Post Posted 9 Feb 2018 6:38 pm     Reply with quote

I would suggest finding Paul Franklin old 1/2/7 lever tutorial tape (I have it if you want to email me)

He explains why he raises 7 with 1 and 2 rather than the 6 lower. If you absolutely have to have it, I suggest a 2nd Rk lever but I seem to get along fine without it... you can always figure a way around not having a change. And fwiw, I have a feel stop half tone raise on strong 1 along with the whole tone raise
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Jim Morris


From:
Cincinnati Ohio, USA
Post Posted 9 Feb 2018 6:40 pm     Reply with quote

I would suggest finding Paul Franklin old 1/2/7 lever tutorial tape (I have it if you want to email me)

He explains why he raises 7 with 1 and 2 rather than the 6 lower. If you absolutely have to have it, I suggest a 2nd Rk lever but I seem to get along fine without it... you can always figure a way around not having a change. And fwiw, I have a feel stop half tone raise on strong 1 along with the whole tone raise... I wouldn't use another lever for the half tone if it were me.

Honeslty, the standard setup Doug does on his 4x5 or 3x5 is plenty to keep you busy forever and a day.
Just get what you want and play the thing.....

Down the road if you want a different swtup, sell the stage one and get a guitar you can change the copedent on
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Richard Sinkler


From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Oakdale, California
Post Posted 10 Feb 2018 9:25 am     Reply with quote

Jim Morris wrote:
I would suggest finding Paul Franklin old 1/2/7 lever tutorial tape (I have it if you want to email me)

He explains why he raises 7 with 1 and 2 rather than the 6 lower. If you absolutely have to have it, I suggest a 2nd Rk lever but I seem to get along fine without it... you can always figure a way around not having a change. And fwiw, I have a feel stop half tone raise on strong 1 along with the whole tone raise... I wouldn't use another lever for the half tone if it were me.

Honeslty, the standard setup Doug does on his 4x5 or 3x5 is plenty to keep you busy forever and a day.
Just get what you want and play the thing.....

Down the road if you want a different swtup, sell the stage one and get a guitar you can change the copedent on


On my Carter D10, I have both the 6th lower and 7th full tone moves. I had a 2nd LKL for the F# to G#. I almost never use the 7th string raise. I find that I can usually use the 6th string lower up to G#. But I have never heard Paul's tape. Might be different if I had.
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Jim Morris


From:
Cincinnati Ohio, USA
Post Posted 10 Feb 2018 10:46 am     Reply with quote

There are some nice voicing to can get with the 1,2,7 on the same levwr....
That being said, I'm about to change it to the 6th lower....... why???? Cause it will fit my style better I thibk.
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Richard Sinkler


From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Oakdale, California
Post Posted 10 Feb 2018 1:38 pm     Reply with quote

If I could only have 3 levers, they would be the E raises and lowers, and the 6th string lower (with or without the 1st and 2nd string raises). The 6th lower is so embedded into my style that I would never ditch it. The 7th raise to G# didn't do what I was doing with the 6th lower. I added the 7th raise because I was learning "Kelsey's Song" by Buck Reid, and he uses it in the tab. I was able to use the 6th string lower for the part.
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Jim Morris


From:
Cincinnati Ohio, USA
Post Posted 10 Feb 2018 1:58 pm     Reply with quote

Yeah Richard the 7th raise is nice and I wish I had somewhere else to put it...but I'm learning and seeing how much I'm missing by not having the 6th string lower there.
With the style I play (southern gospel) there are more uses for the 6th lower than the 7th raise......

Now to learn some more ways to use the frenklin pedal, cause I don't utilize it as much as I wish I could... it's a nice change
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Mike Perlowin


From:
Los Angeles CA
Post Posted 10 Feb 2018 2:18 pm     Reply with quote

I would put the F# to G raise in the vertical, and the B to Bb on the RKL.

I FEEL VERY STRONGLY THAT PUTTING THE B TO Bb ON THE VERTICAL IS A BIG MISTAKE!! In my opinion it belongs on one of the other knee levers.

When I have time I'll start a thread about this.
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Greg Milton


From:
Melbourne, Australia
Post Posted 10 Feb 2018 6:05 pm     Reply with quote

Mike Perlowin wrote:
I would put the F# to G raise in the vertical, and the B to Bb on the RKL.

I FEEL VERY STRONGLY THAT PUTTING THE B TO Bb ON THE VERTICAL IS A BIG MISTAKE!! In my opinion it belongs on one of the other knee levers.

When I have time I'll start a thread about this.


Can't wait to read this post, Mike! I'll keep an eye out for it.
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Jerry Overstreet


From:
Louisville Ky
Post Posted 10 Feb 2018 6:26 pm     Reply with quote

I like Peter's setup. Very modern changes and everything you need is there. It works well. It's basically the same tuning as comes on a new generic tuned guitar. Very friendly.

I've had the Bb lever at the LKV position for over 30 yrs. It works great there with my setup and the way I play. I don't have any reason to consider moving it to another lever. Everything is a trade off. One has to decide which changes are the most important to them and where to place them on their own guitar.
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Peter Nylund


From:
Finland
Post Posted 11 Feb 2018 4:44 am     Reply with quote

John Sluszny wrote:
Peter Nylund wrote:
This would be my take on a 4x5 setup

RKR F# to G# ? Why not F# to G ? Thanks.


F# to G is on another lever on my guitar. Here my copedent with 5 x 7:



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Tommy Mc


From:
Middlesex VT
Post Posted 11 Feb 2018 10:17 am     Reply with quote

[quote="Greg Milton"]
Mike Perlowin wrote:
I would put the F# to G raise in the vertical, and the B to Bb on the RKL.

I FEEL VERY STRONGLY THAT PUTTING THE B TO Bb ON THE VERTICAL IS A BIG MISTAKE!! In my opinion it belongs on one of the other knee levers.

When I have time I'll start a thread about this.


I'm also looking forward to your thoughts. It seems to me that since you have to push up on your toes to use the V lever, it makes sense to use it for a change that's mostly used in combination with some pedal. I've been giving serious thought to putting my Bb on a different lever, and moving F#→G to the V position. (As you suggested above)
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John Sluszny


From:
Brussels, Belgium
Post Posted 11 Feb 2018 10:41 am     Reply with quote

Peter Nylund wrote:
John Sluszny wrote:
Peter Nylund wrote:
This would be my take on a 4x5 setup

RKR F# to G# ? Why not F# to G ? Thanks.


F# to G is on another lever on my guitar. Here my copedent with 5 x 7:



Yes,very nice,but as Baron will be ordering an Encore he won't get more than 4&5 (which is more than enough JMHO),so...


Last edited by John Sluszny on 12 Feb 2018 11:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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