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Topic: Compressor effect pedal with steel |
Don Glasrud
From:
British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 1 Feb 2018 8:37 pm |
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| Thinking about using a compressor to increase sustain with my steel. Any suggestions or opinions would be appreciated. Types of compressor effect pedals that are high quality??? |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 1 Feb 2018 10:49 pm
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Isn't that what your volume pedal is for?
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Not in all cases - it depends on the sound you want plus the specific compressor and its settings.
I use an Xotic SP, which can be set to have no "squash" on the attack and provide just mild sustain. While it might be possible to use a volume pedal that way there always seems to be a bit of a "swell" affect with volume pedal due to the physical motion.
I find the volume pedal to be clearly noticeable and I don't care for that sound. If the right compressor is set properly it's totally transparent. mine is attached under the steel - you'd never know if it's on or not.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Per Berner
From:
Skövde, Sweden
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Posted 1 Feb 2018 11:01 pm
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| This topic has been covered many times before. None of the regular compressors that I have tried were any good. But electronic guru Georg Sørtun recommended using a Boss LMB-3 limiter for compression that doesn't squish the tone and attack of a steel. It works! |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 2 Feb 2018 1:46 am
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In addition to being an excellent compressor for those who want clear, natural, and more or less sustained, sounds out of their steels, the BOSS LMB-3 "Bass Limiter/Enhancer" placed as first stage (before VP and other effect units) also does a very decent job as buffer on steel with its 1Mohm input impedance and low output impedance. I use it as pre-amp/eq/compressor all in one, usually followed by a low-impedance (50Kohm) VP since the LMB-3 eliminates the need for for a normal, high-ohm, VPs. Of course no problem using it with any of the regular VPs on the market, being they pot or (more or less) active.
If anything negative: the LMB-3 draws some current, so a 9Volt battery doesn't last all that many hours. Easily overcome with a good power supply. |
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Charlie Thompson
From:
South Carolina, USA
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Posted 2 Feb 2018 6:15 am
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| If you feel you really need one, I suggest getting one with a blend knob allowing you a lot more control |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 2 Feb 2018 8:35 am
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Back in the 70's, I used an MXR Dynacomp for use as an actual effect. I wanted the squashing effect. I used it to get close (well at least what I thought was close) to that Tele popping thwang sound. I have never had a guitar (I have had 8 of them) that needed any help with sustain.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 2 Feb 2018 10:10 am
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| Richard Sinkler wrote: |
| I have never had a guitar (I have had 8 of them) that needed any help with sustain. |
Me neither (have had 7 over the years / have 5 now), but all of mine sure sound more to my taste with the right compressor (BOSS LMB-3) set right than with and without any other effect I have tested. Same for a number of PSGs I have tested (with one of my own LMB-3s attached) at shows etc.
I use my LMB-3s to enhance (not squash) the attacks, add clarity, duck/half-mute single-notes, dynamically (and manually) adjust the tone, buffer the PU, and drive a power-stage (via VP) as it makes the regular pre/eq stages in my amps redundant. Not bad for a unit that at most cost me $85 (I've bought three over the years and they are all in perfectly working order). That these units can be set all the way from no compression, to totally nonsensical sustain as an effect, doesn't hurt. |
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Len Amaral
From:
Rehoboth,MA 02769
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Posted 2 Feb 2018 7:32 pm
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George,
You mentioned using the the LMB-3 before the VP and before the effects. How would the LMB-3 work on a pedal board after a he VP? |
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Nathan Guilford
From:
Oklahoma City
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Posted 2 Feb 2018 9:09 pm
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| Quote: |
| the right compressor (BOSS LMB-3) set right |
Tell us how you have your Boss LMB-3 set and how it's changed for different steels, please?
_________________
'02 Carter S-12 uni
‘76 MSA D-12
www.toothbrushers.com |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 3 Feb 2018 12:30 am
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| Len Amaral wrote: |
| You mentioned using the the LMB-3 before the VP and before the effects. How would the LMB-3 work on a pedal board after a he VP? |
It will counteract the VP and even out levels, if it is set to any degree of compression. Unless I was making a recording and really needed to even out levels from my steel(s), I would not use a compressor after the VP.
Outside studios a compressor should not be used as a kind of "replacement" for riding the VP. I set and use my LMB-3 as an "assistant" to the VP, as it can be quite hard to play so disciplined that every attack and sustained note comes out perfect, while trying to express oneself and not sound like a machine.
The humble VP is still my "expression pedal", and I use it as the music demands. To make that work the VP has to come after the compressor.
| Nathan Guilford wrote: |
| Tell us how you have your Boss LMB-3 set and how it's changed for different steels, please? |
I usually start with settings like in the following picture…
… and adjust slightly* on the Ratio and Treshold depending on how the PSG in question appear to sustain with a given feedback from its own amp/speaker - all without moving the VP away from the about 1/3 position, and with amp-volume set for the job.
* By "slightly" I mean that Ratio and Treshold rarely ever need to be adjusted more than +/- half-an-hour away from that "default" setting, as long as the aim is to make the steel sound its natural self.
As diffent PSGs react differently to feedback, relying on a "fixed preset" for any PSG for all situations/venues doesn't work. Some PSGs can "float" (sustain) on their own acoustic feedback, while others hardly react to feedback.
My GFI Ultra does for instance react totally different on feedback than my Dekleys, so while I may have to adjust LMB-3 settings for the GFI depending on acoustic feedback, my Dekleys behave/sound stable almost regardless of feedback levels.
(FWIW: I prefer to play my Dekleys, but have no real problems adjusting the LMB-3 and amp-volume to make my GFI sound close enough for comfort compared to those old contraptions.)
I do adjust the LMB-3's Enhance control up/down a bit for the degree of "attack bite" I want. "Normal" is as shown in the picture - second knob from left. That knob will by most be used as "tone control" for adjusting treble - it pretty much eliminates the need for further eq'ing in my set-ups.
If I need to adjust overall volume, it's done on the left-most knob on the LMB-3 rather than on the amp. Picture shows it in the position where overall level with active LMB-3 is pretty much the same as with the LMB-3 shut off, but that does of course depend on how hard one attacks those strings on average. |
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Nathan Guilford
From:
Oklahoma City
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Posted 3 Feb 2018 5:38 am
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Thanks for the detailed explanations. I have another question for the Boss LMB-3 users. Since it was originally marketed as a "Bass" pedal, do you notice a drop in the the high end of the eq when engaged?
I've been using a compressors especially for long sustained passages (ambient-style beds) that mimic what a keyboard would do. It never really occurred to me until recently that it could be useful in a traditional steel passage when dialed back to more "normal" settings. My favorite is the Origin Effects Sliderig, but I'd never tested the Boss LMB-3. Hence my curiosity.
Thanks all in advance.
_________________
'02 Carter S-12 uni
‘76 MSA D-12
www.toothbrushers.com |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 3 Feb 2018 6:32 am
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| Nathan Guilford wrote: |
| I have another question for the Boss LMB-3 users. Since it was originally marketed as a "Bass" pedal, do you notice a drop in the the high end of the eq when engaged? |
Noticed, and measured…
• It dips in the high-mid frequencies where many steel players comment about "harshness" in their tone. The resulting "sound-shaping" suits me fine with the number of single-coil and humbucker PUs I have tested … they all sound good, just different.
• It peaks in the higher frequencies, enhancing the part of the attack sound I personally like best.
• The "Enhance" control modifies that peak/dip "non-linearity" in the high-mid to higher frequencies. For bass guitars that knob is used to regulate "slap" effects, while for steel it acts more like a "presence" control.
• As all compressors, it rides on whatever the dominant string-sound may be, which tends to make the sound in the lower frequencies richer while also less muddy, with higher string separation. I like very much to play on that effect with how I pick and mute individual strings.
Note: as I don't have the input and eq stages on my NV-112s in the sound-chain, I run that amp with its original speaker as linearly as it is capable of - natural roll-off at both ends.
Note also: adjusting the LMB-3 for extreme, or hilarious, effects is easy. Emulating E-bow sound across all strings for instance. May throw some who are not good at adjusting effects by ear a little off when they try to find just the right degree of compression/sustain. |
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Len Amaral
From:
Rehoboth,MA 02769
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Posted 3 Feb 2018 9:48 am
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George, thanks for the detailed reply. The reason I asked about placing the LMB-after the VP is I use a Boss 3 pedal case with Reverb & Delay. It would be convenient to remove the chorus pedal and put the LMB-3 in the case.
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 3 Feb 2018 10:46 am
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| Len, it never hurts to try … nothing can go really wrong. Even if you lose some VP-expression, you may find a setting that makes it work to your taste with the LMB-3 after the VP. |
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Len Amaral
From:
Rehoboth,MA 02769
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Posted 3 Feb 2018 1:39 pm
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| Thanks George. I am going to give it a try this week end. I have two of the LMB-3 pedals. One I use with my bass guitar and it makes a huge difference in response and feel. |
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Len Amaral
From:
Rehoboth,MA 02769
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Posted 3 Feb 2018 1:46 pm
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| Thanks George. I am going to give it a try this week end. I have two of the LMB-3 pedals. One I use with my bass guitar and it makes a huge difference in response and feel. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 3 Feb 2018 6:12 pm
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| Len Amaral wrote: |
| One I use with my bass guitar and it makes a huge difference in response and feel. |
Bet it does, and the "responsiveness" and "dynamic enhancement" is what makes the BOSS LMB-3 unique among stomp-box compressors.
Set right - and preferably placed first in the sound-chain - it will add the same very natural and very playable "pseudo-dynamic" effect to steel guitars … making our instruments sound more dynamic than they are while reducing (compressing) their actual dynamic range. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 5 Feb 2018 8:04 pm
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| Quote: |
| the "responsiveness" and "dynamic enhancement" is what makes the BOSS LMB-3 unique |
Devil's advocate -
And exactly what I *don't* like about it and why I quickly eliminated it from my signal chain.
It was "effect-y" sounding. I specifically *don't* want a compressor or limiter to add noticeable responsiveness, and (yikes!) no "enhancement" please! But no matter how subtle the control settings I found it to do either nothing or add a non-miuscial "enhancement" to the sound like most other pedals with "enhance" somewhere in the description or marketing materials.
I use the SP with a 50's Fender 400, which is not a steel known for its endless sustain  It adds just enough "to taste" with a tonal transparency I don't find in any other stompbox-type compressor (especially not a sub-compact type I can mount under the guitar). The LMB-3 is comparatively quite "up front", something of no use to me.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 5 Feb 2018 8:52 pm
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| Jim Sliff wrote: |
| I use the SP with a 50's Fender 400, which is not a steel known for its endless sustain It adds just enough "to taste" with a tonal transparency I don't find in any other stompbox-type compressor (especially not a sub-compact type I can mount under the guitar). The LMB-3 is comparatively quite "up front", something of no use to me. |
Sounds reasonable…
… different taste … different steel … etc. Good thing we do not all want to sound the same. |
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Karlis Abolins
From:
(near) Seattle, WA, USA
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Posted 6 Feb 2018 3:07 pm
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Jim,
Just to clarify your usage of the compressor, do you use it instead of the VP? The reason I ask is that my right ankle is partly fused and I have never been able to properly use a VP.
I play without a VP and I find the initial string attack is too strong to balance against the normal sustain of the steel. Does your setup allow you to better balance the initial attack relative to the sustain? I assume it does but have to ask the question.
Karlis |
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Len Amaral
From:
Rehoboth,MA 02769
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Posted 6 Feb 2018 6:26 pm
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| George, I put the LMB-3 in my Boss 3 pedal case and I dialed in some very usable tones. You are correct about going from guitar to LMB-3 being a better placement but the convienience of placing it in the case is handy. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 6 Feb 2018 9:47 pm
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| Quote: |
| Just to clarify your usage of the compressor, do you use it instead of the VP? |
Not really, as I don't feel the need to use a volume pedal with steel at all. While it seems to have become an almost "required" piece of equipment it's really a stylistic choice more than anything else.
I use pick attack control on the front end of notes and I don't use the "swell" type effect country players do - because I'm not one.
As I explain I use the compressor to add a bit of extra sustain to a type of guitar that's slightly lacking in it. The compressor is left on, but doesn't "squash" the front of notes with a strong mix of "dry" signal.
If it's difficult physically to play with a volume pedal - don't. There are no steel police that will cite you for not using one.
Most places.....
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 6 Feb 2018 11:32 pm
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| Karlis Abolins wrote: |
Jim,
Just to clarify your usage of the compressor, do you use it instead of the VP? The reason I ask is that my right ankle is partly fused and I have never been able to properly use a VP.
I play without a VP and I find the initial string attack is too strong to balance against the normal sustain of the steel. Does your setup allow you to better balance the initial attack relative to the sustain? I assume it does but have to ask the question.
Karlis |
The Electro Harmonix POG2 has a "attack" control that can be used to fade in the note right after you pick it. The device is a polyphonic octave generator, but you can easily program a preset that just uses the natural sound with the attack suppression. It holds 8 presets. Most people use it as an organ effect or to emulate a bass or 12-string guitar, but you don't have to use its octave capability to cut the attack envelope.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 7 Feb 2018 9:41 am
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Karlis- if you find the initial string attack is too strong I have a couple of questions:
Do you always pick in the same place, or do you vary your hand position?
What amplifier do you use, what speaker(s) and how loud do you run it? do you vary your tone control settings based on the room/environment or do you leave everything in one place?
Do you play with vibrato?
Is the problem the same at all volume levels and with/without a band?
Is there anything else in your signal chain?
Nearly every player I've worked with that had attack-based issues solved them by altering their attack and/or left hand technique - not through use of additional gear. If the instrument and amp have reasonable/normal amounts of sustain there should not be a huge imbalance between pick attack and sustained notes - just as with any other instrument.
Some gear-based problems that can appear to be attack-based are 1) using high-powered amp at very low volume, or 2) a low-sensitivity (or inefficient) speaker, 3) an amp that has never been set up or "tuned" properly (especially true of tube amps), and 4) other gear that affects the signal level.
If all of these potential issues have been examined and eliminated I'd look at hand position and attack strength before applying gear-based solutions. Using a single hand position and/or always picking at the same general power level can both be changed to overcome what may appear to be overbearing pick attack.
These are just some of the most-apparent things to take a look at. There are quite a few other variables. It can help to look outside the pedal steel world, as nearly all 6-string techniques regarding pick attack are applicable to pedal steel.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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