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Topic: So you buy a $2500 amp |
Larry Behm
From:
Mt Angel, Or 97362
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Posted 4 Feb 2018 11:01 am |
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Tony yes you are right on the money about this thread. Circumstances can change gig to gig, band to band etc. I have been putting my amp to my left on an amp stand blowing right on me so it does not wash on others. That way I can depend on the amp sound and not the soundman and monitor EQ, I can not control the Mains but everyone faces that.
_________________
'70 D10 Black fatback Emmons PP, Hilton VP, BJS bars, Boss GE-7 for Dobro effect, Zoom MS50G, Flamma Reverb, Planet Wave cables, Quilter 202 Toneblock, Telonics 15” speaker.
Phone: 971-219-8533
Last edited by Larry Behm on 4 Feb 2018 9:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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K Maul
From:
Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL
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Posted 4 Feb 2018 5:47 pm
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I heard Buddy Emmons play with the Everly Bros. He was using a Peavey Nashville 400. I don't know if that is a "cheap one dimensional amp" or not,but that guy sounded JUST like Buddy Emmons through it.
_________________
Kevin Maul: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Decophonic, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 5 Feb 2018 8:59 am
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It seems like there is always a hot new boutique amp being put on the market for big bucks. Some guys buy it and insist that it sounds "better than any amp I've ever owned" but then it seems like a couple of years later it winds up being for sale for about half of what they paid for it.
But you take an amp like the old Nashville 400 and it just keeps going on and on and on. 
Erv |
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Ollin Landers
From:
Willow Springs, NC
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Posted 8 Feb 2018 5:03 pm
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I'm not a full time player but I do gig a few times a month as a weekend warrior. If I was a full time musician I would still hope to have the same attitude about my amps.
My number one requirement is simplicity. Is it easy and quick to setup? Second can I get the tone I want in any setting in just a few minutes.
After that I have to trust our sound person for the front of house.
Lets face it maybe 1 in 100 average people in the audience is going to be able to really hear the difference in a reasonably good amp and an ultimate dream, once in a lifetime, boutique super amp.
If a really expensive $2500.00 amp is what I need to hear to play my best then that's what I'll have. No matter if the audience, sound man or even the band can tell the difference.
Thankfully for my pocketbook that hasn't happened yet.
_________________
Zum SD-12 Black, Zum SD-12 Burly Elm Several B-Bender Tele's and a lot of other gear I can't play.
I spent half my money on gambling, alcohol and wild women. The other half I wasted. W.C. Fields |
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Steve Sycamore
From:
Sweden
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Posted 9 Feb 2018 2:27 am
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| I agree Ollin. What is most important is how it feels to play - the attack of the note, the bloom in how harmonics develop, the dynamics, the right kind of flexibility in shifting between legato and staccato phrasing... |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 9 Feb 2018 2:59 am
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what if there is NO sound person ?
These days bands can barley afford to pay the players and clubs can barely afford to pay the band.
I play approx 50 + gigs a year , last year not one had a sound man or a house system.
WE are our own sound people. Most bands carry there own small system and whoever , (?) sets it up.
We should select and carry gear knowing full well there is no sound crew. If there happens to be one, well then, that can be a plus, ..or..MAYBE NOT 
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 9 Feb 2018 12:02 pm
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| Quote: |
| Could anything go wrong with this concept? |
Yes. Or no.
The price of the amp is completely irrelevant. With any amp (but especially tube amps) there are quite a few variables involved that most players either ignore or simply aren't aware of. Most involve the services of a qualified amp tech to "tune" the amp, ensure it's properly serviced and match the speaker to the amp, style and player. This is essential as it's the "foundation" upon which most of the overall sound is built.
The amp needs to be appropriate for the venue *and* controls adjusted specifically for each location (more on "appropriate" in a minute...). Many newer players ask for "guide settings" for their controls, which are generally useless. Different room sizes, shapes (parallel vs asymmetrical walls), ceiling heights & types (flat, beam, vaulted etc), wall covering types (paint, curtains, glass doors, shelves full of booze  ), stage position/height/construction, physical [position of amp/speaker(s), size and position of audience, size of band, loudness level - and finally mic'd or not mic'd - all change how amp settings are determined - AND what amp should be used.
Many gigging players - again, especially those using tube amps - have found that trying to use only one amp in all situations just doesn't work very well. No matter whether an amp is mic'd or not the best tone is achieved by running it at a level that drives the speaker(s) to their full frequency response (note I did NOT say "loudness level", as that is largely dependent on speaker sensitivity and designed frequency response, total square inches of speaker cone and cabinet type/design. These all have to be factored in, as they - more than "watts" - determine both actual and perceived "loudness".
With most amps - regardless of type - this can't be done at a low output level (note I didn't say "low loudness level"). Example - a Fender Twin Reverb turned up to "2 1/2" will (regardless of speaker) usually sound thin and lack punch. Lower mids will be weak with overall weak tone A much lower-output Deluxe Reverb will provide an excellent clean tone (again, if the amp is "tuned" by someone that knows what they're doing - and the right speaker(s) selected.
Or if more output is needed, a Vibrolux Reverb, Vibroverb, Pro Reverb (I'm using Fenders only as examples. You can use any properly dialed-inamp that has your preferred voicing and can be driven enough for the specific venue.
It's generally best to use the smallest amp (meaning *lowest output* - not necessarily lowest in "watts", or smallest physically) that will get the tone desired at an acceptable volume level.
One higher-output amp of any kind (think Twin Reverb-type output) is usually a bad choice - in small clubs they're usually overkill and "too much amp". Even worse if mic'd in a smaller venue - it's nearly impossible to get a good sound at an acceptable loudness level.
Yes, many players have done exactly this for years and think the sound is great. However, there's almost always an exponential improvement in tone when a well-tuned amp more appropriate to the room/venue/situation is used. The usual bias against lower-output amps results from having tried ones that were not set up properly!
Also - if the amps are mic'd it takes a sound engineer that knows what he's doing to achieve a good mix, which should include knowing how to use/position on-stage baffles to control stage volume.
But that job does NOT include setting the players' amp controls IF the players are using amps appropriate for the venue. sound engineers should not be allowed to touch amp controls, ever.
Forget price and brand and start with output level (again - NOT power, which is a terrible indicator of comparative output).
If you don't know how to determine the output level of a specific amp either test-drive it, learn about it or don't consider it. And if you don't know how to determine/discover the output level of ANY amp you're in trouble. and need to do a lot of reading about and testing of various amps - and find at least one extremely competent amp tech that understands how to "tune" an amp - not just "fix" it (which, unfortunately, is the case with most "techs").
No matter what instrument you play, if you play different types/sizes of venues you undoubtedly need a minimum of two very different "gig" amps - plus at least one "compromise" backup. Players I work with never gig without a backup amp, ever.
Final note - in-ear monitors with individual mix capabilities (becoming much more common) are a huge help in controlling stage volume and making players happy - because they can hear themselves! It takes an hour or so of adjustment for the player - I hated it the first time I tried it - but most players don't want to use anything else after the adjustment period.
Amps are musical instruments and - in the case of modern pedal steel - probably more critical to good tone than the guitar itself.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Dave Diehl
From:
Mechanicsville, MD, USA
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Posted 9 Feb 2018 2:46 pm
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| Jim has made so many good points in his post. I started to quote one but as I kept reading I thought, heck, there are others there that I totally agree with. I too believe it's somewhat useless to ask for someone's amp settings if your objective is to "sound like that". Same goes true for pickups. Which pickups should I use.... well, a particular pickup which sounds great in my guitar may not sound great in someone else's even if it's the same guitar. I usually switch pickups many times in a guitar until I hit the right combination and found that a pickup in one LeGrande of mine sounds different in another LeGrande of mine. So, didn't mean to change the subject of the discussion to pickups, just making an analogy to Jim's points on amps and settings. But getting back to the post discussion, I for one did purchase a Fryette 2902 Power Amp a few months ago and paid nearly two grand for it. I was really hesitant in doing so but after I did, I was totally satisfied with my decision. It gives me so much more control over the consistency of my signal than any other power amp I had ever used and I don't mean loudness. Oh, it'll get loud but I'm talking a nice even volume signal. |
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Bobby Nelson
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 18 Feb 2018 6:46 am
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| Of course I may be getting old and crotchety, but I like offering a sub-par sound man an option of how he wants to proceed for the evening: When he wants to do things to my tone, I step aside and tell him that he can play the show with the tone he wants, or he can operate his end of the room and let me operate mine. Of course I was rarely playing high level shows and usually had to deal with sound men who could screw up the sound from an audiophile stereo playing a CD. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 18 Feb 2018 9:44 am
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This is a timely discussion for me as I'm currently considering a Telonics combo.
I changed from Peaveys to Roland Cubes (80xls) a few years ago because I was beginning to have issues with carrying heavy gear. While I'm not dissatisfied with the Rolands - they've performed faultlessly and give me a satisfactory tone - I can't help wondering what I might be missing.
I have one of Ken Fox' Vintage Bassman-styled tube-amps here. It's amazing but, to be truthful, I've always opted to take the Rolands out with me because I fear for the reliability of a tube-amp on the road. I can always pop a spare 80xl in the trunk as they're so compact but there's no such recourse with the Fox Vintage.
The Telonics seem to have gained an envious reputation and, as yet, I haven't determined their price (north of $2,000, certainly) but they're under the microscope here in this house.
_________________
Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 20 Feb 2018 2:47 am
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| Roger Rettig wrote: |
| here. It's amazing but, to be truthful, I've always opted to take the Rolands out with me because I fear for the reliability of a tube-amp on the road. |
And then the opposite
Over my last 45 years of continued gigging I can only recall two amps ever dying on a gig, both were Solid State !
I played with the exact same twin reverb for over 20 years, yeah sometimes it had a nagging something or other going on but it never failed. that was from 70 to early 90's
since then it's been Fender tube amps of some sort, Hot Rod Deluxe Or Hot Rod Deville, both not known to be the best of fender circuits. Never died, sure there were some overtones that had to be corrected, but they never died. Thats mid 90's to present.
A couple of years back I was doing regular BASS duty with a local artist, had a couple of fine rigs, GK was one of them, it died on the gig.
The only other amp that died on a gig was a solid state Crown 2000 used to run our monitor system
Today I still gig regularly with one of the tube amps and the spare I carry is the GK MB200 which fits in the gig bag.
Opposite universes !
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Ken Byng
From:
Southampton, England
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Posted 20 Feb 2018 3:14 am
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I used a Fender Twin w/ JBL's for some 20 years, then a NV 400 for about the same period. Both were road amps and the Twin was great when the tubes were new, but I always seemed to get through pre-amp tubes at a rate of knots. I then got a Webb amp which still remains superb, but my Telonics TCA500 is on a different level to anything else that I have played through. Great on stage and in the studio, and it is LIGHT.
I first encountered the Telonics amp at Dallas a few years back. I had been invited to perform there by Charles Tilley. I was playing a Carter that I had never played on before, but had no amp. I approached Dave Beaty and asked him if I could borrow an amp for my set and he was kind enough to loan me an amp and volume pedal for my set. By the end of my set I knew that I had to get a TCA500 as the tone was fantastic.
Roger - you should have no fear with the Roland Cubes. They are bomb-proof.
_________________
Show Pro D10 - amber (8+6), MSA D10 Legend XL Signature - redburst (9+6), Sho-Bud Pro 111 Custom (8+6), Emmons black Push-Pull D10 (8+5), Zum D10 (8x8), Hudson pedal resonator. Telonics TCA-500, Webb 614-E, |
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Mike Brown
From:
Meridian, Mississippi USA
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Posted 20 Feb 2018 12:34 pm Buddy's amps
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| ....were mic'd at the St.Louis Convention using PVM 45 microphones. |
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Bobby Nelson
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 20 Feb 2018 5:53 pm
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| Used a 65 (I think - it was a black face anyway)Vibrolux reverb,64 Super Reverb and a 59 Gibson GA-20 for years, gave them a lot of abuse and very little maintenance, and never had one go out. I did have another guy's BF Twin Reverb go out on me one time though. Maybe it's in my head but, I don't get the same sweetness out of anything SS as I do with (hand wired point to point, vintage or otherwise) tube amps. I got a NV-400 w/fox mod, for the steel and thought it sounded fantastic - until I got the Twin. |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Posted 20 Feb 2018 6:18 pm
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| Tube amps seem very fragile but I've never had one fail. I've had two high end solid state amps fail on me though. Even 20 year old tube amps where supposedly the electrolytics have dried out, components have been cooked, tubes never replaced, have never failed on me. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 21 Feb 2018 8:50 am
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Vacuum tubes and their associated components usually have the decency to get sick before they die. Silicon not so considerate.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Mike Scaggs
From:
Nashville, TN
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Posted 22 Feb 2018 8:24 am
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| Greg Cutshaw wrote: |
| Tube amps seem very fragile but I've never had one fail. I've had two high end solid state amps fail on me though. Even 20 year old tube amps where supposedly the electrolytics have dried out, components have been cooked, tubes never replaced, have never failed on me. |
I often do maintenance and repairs on 50+ year old hand wired Fender amps! If properly cared for they will last a lifetime and sound amazing during the journey. Just like your car, you have to maintain it or it will eventually fail, amps are no different. Tube amps are not fragile, but if you warm them up and start banging them around while the tubes are hot you can and will damage tubes prematurely. Those plates are hot and malleable. Let em cool down for a minute when your done playing and your tubes will last a long long time (excluding JJs)... You tube gurus chime in
_________________
I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you
Zum double Hybrid 8x9, 64 Twin (JBLs), p2pAmps Bad-Dawg, p2pAmps Tremendous Reverb, Visit my website www.p2pamps.com |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 22 Feb 2018 8:32 am
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I bought a new Fender Twin Reverb in 1968 and it is still hanging in there and sounding great!
Erv |
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Mike Scaggs
From:
Nashville, TN
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Posted 22 Feb 2018 8:57 am
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| Erv Niehaus wrote: |
I bought a new Fender Twin Reverb in 1968 and it is still hanging in there and sounding great!
Erv |
And there you go. New Filter caps about every 10-12 years, check voltages etc etc. I also like to change plate resistors that have drifted as well as the 1M input resistors which cause hiss and crackling when they go bad. There are other things too but I know Mr Erv gets it...
Cheers
_________________
I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you
Zum double Hybrid 8x9, 64 Twin (JBLs), p2pAmps Bad-Dawg, p2pAmps Tremendous Reverb, Visit my website www.p2pamps.com |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 22 Feb 2018 9:10 am
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I just love old Fender tube amps, I think that I must have at least a half a dozen, from a Twin Reverb to a Quad and even a Super Six, now that's an amp!
I also have a couple of Fender Vibrosonics.
One is the newer model with the steel channel and I just got through re-reconed the speaker, a JBL D130F |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 23 Feb 2018 12:34 pm
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Great points about maintaining tube amps.
It's unfortunate that most players don't read forums and manufacturers do not mention a thing about "maintenance" - so nearly every used tube amp sold need work! And the poor buyers don't usually know either, buy "vintage amps", take them home, play them...
...and they end up in my - or somebody's - repair queue . NONE of the vintage amps I'm working on suffered a "defect-related failure". A couple need regular service after about 15 years - but 3 suffered problems after being purchased because they hadn't been maintained.
The only "defect" issue I have here is a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe with a burnt trace due to tube heat (a design issue). I don't generally work on solid-state stuff and refer them to a tech buddy. I have tried to solve a number of problems when players have had solid state or digital gear fail or "glitch" on stage. It's rarely happened to tube amp users.
Most of my "repairs" (not related to lack of maintenance) are on Fender and Vox PCB boards. Burnt traces are very common as are failed solder joints. And I don't recall ever encountering a failed solder joint on a vintage Fender...or Vox...or Marshall.
But I have on Peaveys. I haven't had one in here for a while because they're just not used much around here. But 15-20 years ago the Vintage series were pretty common - and often in for repair. Far more than any other major brand of tube amp. And in their hybrid amps it was usually the solid-state side that had problems.
Anyway - my point is that well-maintained tube amps are generally problem-free, and more so that solid state amps.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Craig Bailey
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Posted 23 Feb 2018 3:24 pm
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| Hey Jim, just for my own learning and awareness, what are some of the maintenance tips you would suggest for tube amps? |
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Bobby Nelson
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2018 6:03 am
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Hey Mike, on the subject of your "banging hot tubes Around" thing, Some guy told me years and years ago not to start framming the minute you switch the amp on - let it warm up a little bit. Or, Not to cut both switches off right after a long night of playing - cut the standby off and let it sit for a few minutes, and then power down.
Does this seem like good advice to you, or just old wives tales? |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2018 9:23 am
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The Fender amps with two switches, one of which being standby.
I've been told that the only thing the standby switch did was to disconnect the speaker.
What say you?
Erv |
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Ken Byng
From:
Southampton, England
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Posted 24 Feb 2018 10:33 am
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| Erv Niehaus wrote: |
The Fender amps with two switches, one of which being standby.
I've been told that the only thing the standby switch did was to disconnect the speaker.
What say you?
Erv |
Erv
The standby switch allows the amp to be turned on but keeps full voltage from reaching its power tubes until they’ve had sufficient time to warm up, thus protecting them and prolonging their life.
_________________
Show Pro D10 - amber (8+6), MSA D10 Legend XL Signature - redburst (9+6), Sho-Bud Pro 111 Custom (8+6), Emmons black Push-Pull D10 (8+5), Zum D10 (8x8), Hudson pedal resonator. Telonics TCA-500, Webb 614-E, |
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