| Visit Our Catalog at SteelGuitarShopper.com |

Post new topic Overtuning (and Undertuning) an All-Pull Steel
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Reply to topic
Author Topic:  Overtuning (and Undertuning) an All-Pull Steel
John McClung


From:
Olympia WA, USA
Post  Posted 28 Jul 2018 5:30 pm    
Reply with quote

Jon, my understanding of the amount of pull on changer finger holes has always been: the further the hole is away from the changer axle (i.e, the lower the finger as you look at the changer end of an upright steel), the more travel there is, thus more pulling. So a long whole step raise on pedal C would best be run through the lowest hole, or hole 3 in a 3-raise guitar. Am I wrong about that? Question
_________________
E9 INSTRUCTION
Mullen pre-RP D-12 9+10 / Zumsteel S12 7+6 / Rittenberry SD-12 8+5 / Li'l Izzy / Webb amp / Stereo Steel combo amp-preamp / JBL, BW & Telonics speakers in Telonics cabinets / Hilton and Telonics volume pedals / BJS bars / George L strings & cables / StealSeat.com pack-a-seat / Macintosh computers / This Space for Hire / Burma Shave
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Jon Light


From:
Saugerties, NY
Post  Posted 29 Jul 2018 2:47 am    
Reply with quote

You are wrong, John.
Using the hole further away from the changer axle, you will need more travel of the pedal for the same amount of pitch change. If you want more pitch change without changing the actual pedal movement (the start and/or stop points of the pedal) you will use a changer hole closer to the axle (closer to the top of the guitar) or use a bellcrank hole that is farther from the cross shaft.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA
Post  Posted 29 Jul 2018 6:48 am    
Reply with quote

Jon Light wrote:
You are wrong, John.
Using the hole further away from the changer axle, you will need more travel of the pedal for the same amount of pitch change. If you want more pitch change without changing the actual pedal movement (the start and/or stop points of the pedal) you will use a changer hole closer to the axle (closer to the top of the guitar) or use a bellcrank hole that is farther from the cross shaft.

Is that true for both raises and lowers?
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) ♪ Robert P. LeeRecordingsBreatheMeWe.com
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Jon Light


From:
Saugerties, NY
Post  Posted 29 Jul 2018 7:02 am    
Reply with quote

I've been known to get turned around before.
But yes, that is true for both raises and lowers. Think of it as grabbing a socket wrench up the handle near the socket. It requires a lot more effort to turn it but it requires a lot less actual movement or your hand. Grab the wrench at the end of the handle and the leverage is much easier but your hand is going to swing a larger arc, moving a lot more in space. It is always a trade off between leverage advantage vs. economy of motion.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Georg Sørtun


From:
Mandal, VA, Norway & Weeki Wachee, FL, USA
Post  Posted 29 Jul 2018 10:47 am    
Reply with quote

Jon Light wrote:
I've been known to get turned around before.
But yes, that is true for both raises and lowers.

Of course, but … the further up from the lower-return spring the lower-pull-rod is located, the less of a pull it takes to turn the spring into a pivot-point and get an undesirable "lower-return-to-raise" action.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Jon Light


From:
Saugerties, NY
Post  Posted 29 Jul 2018 12:36 pm    
Reply with quote

Georg Sørtun wrote:

Of course, but … the further up from the lower-return spring the lower-pull-rod is located, the less of a pull it takes to turn the spring into a pivot-point and get an undesirable "lower-return-to-raise" action.


What you say is correct but I would prefer to leave this to more advanced discussions or to troubleshoots where everything else in this thread has failed to address an issue.
It is not a necessary component of the subject of Overtuning.

A separate tutorial on this subject would be most welcome.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
James Quackenbush


From:
Pomona, New York, USA
Post  Posted 6 Sep 2018 11:38 pm    
Reply with quote

Jon,
Thanks for the valuable info......I never gave the holes in the changer end of the steel any consideration when adjusting said steel, always the bell cranks.....A new way of looking at tuning now !!......Thanks again......Jim
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Wayne Quinn


From:
Cape Breton.NovaScotia
Post  Posted 30 Sep 2018 10:29 am     Is this right.
Reply with quote

So changing the pull rods to another hole on the changer would give you a different feel on that pedal or knee lever .example . a little stiffer or a more smother relaxed feel. am I right or no.
_________________
D10 Carter, SD10 Mullen .Nashville 400,. peavey 112 Boss DD3., RV5,
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Jon Light


From:
Saugerties, NY
Post  Posted 30 Sep 2018 11:19 am    
Reply with quote

Absolutely. Another hole in the changer or the bell crank. But you are setting up a chain reaction of causes & effects. Other things will change too. As long as you are ready to deal with these results and have really thought it out, and are ready to change it back to where it was, if it doesn't work out, it is definitely one of the ways that you can customize a steel to suit your preferences.

Making a pedal easier/lighter feeling will result in its having a longer throw. Say you want a lighter B pedal and you change holes on the bell crank. Maybe now when you step on A & B, the B bottoms out too low and rolls your ankle the wrong way. So you change the pedal rod length. Now maybe the pedal is too high at rest. This sort of thing can be the unintended consequence of tinkering with the pull train.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Wayne Quinn


From:
Cape Breton.NovaScotia
Post  Posted 30 Sep 2018 12:56 pm     Thanks
Reply with quote

Thanks Jon for this post. I am going to book mark it for further reference Smile
_________________
D10 Carter, SD10 Mullen .Nashville 400,. peavey 112 Boss DD3., RV5,
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Brian Fox


From:
Minnesota, USA
Post  Posted 1 Oct 2018 9:00 am    
Reply with quote

Thank you for this post. I am new to the hobby and recently purchased a little buddy ( I've read it is typically used for fire wood, lol). Any who. I have looked pretty closely at it and after tuning the strings and A and B pedal I can not get my C pedal to "pull" enough. It always seems a quarter step flat. Are you familiar with these guitars at all? The do not use the nylon thumb screws. I have an alin wrench used for pedal and lever adjustments. I tried moving the rod position up a hole (closest to the guitar). To try and gain more "pull" it did not seem to work. Compared to my A and B pedals they seem to have more movement and a "full stroke" so to speak. I have also adjusted the nut that controls the stop to its maximum position I believe. My question is the "at rest" position what should I typically need to look for on this? And is there anything else I can look at ? The tuning and pedal mechanisms look similar to the guitar pictured on page 1 of this thread.Again, I am new to the hobby, please disregard the improper nomenclature. Please help.
Sincerely ,
Out of tune C pedal.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Jon Light


From:
Saugerties, NY
Post  Posted 1 Oct 2018 9:15 am    
Reply with quote

Hey Brian. Good news/bad news. Bad news is that no, I know absolutely nothing about the Little Buddy. But the good news is that here is a manual:

http://steelguitar.com/manual/LittleBuddy_OwnersManual.pdf

....and some Forum discussion here:

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=201971&sid=2002c8e37e68b2360741546dab1a904f

Further Forum searching may give you more info.

I believe your Buddy is what's called a 'pull/release' mechanism and that's a different animal than the all-pull.

I am not sure if they are adjustable (or a factor) but note that bell-cranks are most efficient if their arc runs roughly from, say, 10 o'clock to 2 o'clock. When any part of their sweep is well outside of that wedge, a lot of the motion is wasted in an upward or downward direction instead of straight lateral pulling. If loosening and repositioning the bellcrank on its round cross shaft is doable (and if the shaft doesn't have a flat spot for the set screw to hit), you can gain some extra bit of leverage with optimal position.

If you need more advice, you should make your own post in the Pedal Steel section calling for Little Buddy help. For sure, there are people with the experience.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Dennis Montgomery


From:
Western Washington
Post  Posted 8 Oct 2018 3:04 pm    
Reply with quote

Jon Light wrote:
I've been known to get turned around before.
But yes, that is true for both raises and lowers. Think of it as grabbing a socket wrench up the handle near the socket. It requires a lot more effort to turn it but it requires a lot less actual movement or your hand. Grab the wrench at the end of the handle and the leverage is much easier but your hand is going to swing a larger arc, moving a lot more in space. It is always a trade off between leverage advantage vs. economy of motion.


Thanks for this thread Jon! I've been changing the coped of my Mullen 12 string and everything was solid except I just could not get a full note drop on string 9 without overtightening (even then I still wasn't getting all the way there). I was already using the bellcrank slot furthest from the shaft, then I noticed the rod was in the lowest slot of the 3 up/3 down changer. Moved it up one slot now I have no problems getting there! It seemed counter-intuitive, but putting that rod closer to the center of the changer made the full step flat work great Smile
_________________
Check out my prog rock band, Mutiny in Jonestown at: https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Jon Light


From:
Saugerties, NY
Post  Posted 9 Oct 2018 3:27 am    
Reply with quote

That's great, Dennis!
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
William Holloman


From:
Florida, USA
Post  Posted 12 Nov 2018 12:37 pm    
Reply with quote

Thanks so much Jon. This is what i've been needing. I love a smoother pedal feel, even though the throw is longer. I had to completely disassemble my '82 D-10 Sho Bud and sand, polish, EVERYTHING. Made notes of rod vs hole placement, but upon reassemble, my notes disappeared !! Been struggling ever since. Is there a "rule of thumb" for placements before I tackle this again ? IE) pedals A & B. I want level pedals whether up or down. (sorry for the long post) Thanks, BILL
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Jon Light


From:
Saugerties, NY
Post  Posted 12 Nov 2018 1:11 pm    
Reply with quote

Bill -- it's such a good question but it gets complicated.

It becomes like a 4 dimensional game of chess with the 4 dimensions being:

-- customizing the length of the pedal/lever movement
-- customizing the feel (stiffness) of the pedal/lever movement
-- customizing the timing of the stop/start of the pull (for instance getting strings 3 & 6 to move in unison on E9)
-- customizing the up and down alignment of the pedals

An adjustment to any one of these items will have an affect on all the others.

To aim to adjust every one of these items to your liking is possible (within reason) but it is certainly advanced level work. You will be going back and forth, compromising, possibly settling for something less than you were shooting for in one of these areas, getting the pedal levels to your liking but not liking the timing of the pulls and either saying 'good enough' or going back in and trying again. Years ago I set out to shorten some throws. For a while I liked the results but then I got tired of the stiffer feel. And the unison pulls were not great. It took around a year of tinkering every once in a while, slowly deciding to "go in again" several times until I made the right choices and made some compromises.

Rule of thumb? If you were asking for a rule of thumb about bell crank slots or changer holes for general setup I would say you want to find a rodding chart for several makes of steels to get a general idea--they are available. But from the standpoint of pedal position....you got me there. The only way I know of to work on pedal position (not just adjusting the length of the pedal rod ---actually getting the pedals to have the same amount of movement, up and down) is to add or remove movement from one pedal according to the need to match the other. Which will definitely affect the pull and require bell crank changes. I predict that at some point you will have to choose which of the 4 factors are most important to you and compromise a bit on one or two of them.

That's an awful lot of talking but unfortunately there are no really good answers in this post. Just general concept. Sorry!
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
William Holloman


From:
Florida, USA
Post  Posted 12 Nov 2018 1:37 pm    
Reply with quote

Thanks for the reply Jon. As others have said, I was unaware that opposite holes in changer vs b.crank would give a longer throw. (school of leverage) Maybe that's why I can't get strings 3 & 6 in time. As it is now, 3 comes in WAY before 6. I'll keep trying. Thank you, BILL
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Terry Sneed


From:
Arkansas,
Post  Posted 21 Nov 2018 2:54 pm     Over n under
Reply with quote

man alive, it takes a good mind to
figure out how to build one of these
contraptions! It's all I can do to figure
out how to tune the darn thing!
Thanks Jon for the info on over and
under tuning.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Jon Light


From:
Saugerties, NY
Post  Posted 22 Nov 2018 3:23 am    
Reply with quote

Thank you for the comment, Terry.

My primary mission -- something that I feel I was only partially successful at -- was to make a presentation that was useful to someone who didn't have much interest in mechanical concepts but had the need to troubleshoot their own steel guitar. Some people's brains are wired for this, other people, not so much. I hope that I managed to hold the interest of someone who tends to cross their eyes and say 'nope--this ain't happening'. I know that feeling.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Alan Muir


From:
Colorado, USA
Post  Posted 16 Feb 2019 4:05 pm    
Reply with quote

Your post helped me a lot. Thank you.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Jon Light


From:
Saugerties, NY
Post  Posted 17 Feb 2019 5:02 am    
Reply with quote

Thanks, Alan. I love to hear that.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
FRANK MARIANO


From:
PENSACOLA FL
Post  Posted 20 Apr 2019 6:33 am     Very well done
Reply with quote

Helped a bunch thanks Jon
_________________
Zum,Mullen,Sterio Steel,Little Walter, Fox Vintage,Beard,Fender Lap
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Jon Light


From:
Saugerties, NY
Post  Posted 21 Apr 2019 11:10 am    
Reply with quote

Excellent, Frank. Thanks for posting that.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Jon Light


From:
Saugerties, NY
Post  Posted 21 Apr 2019 11:13 am    
Reply with quote

The forum has more than enough stickies and (imo) it does not need more. So I will post this here and hope it will be seen. With regards to 6th string tuning problems that occur after a string change when everything was ok before:


Before you buy and change strings for the first time, take note of whether the 6th string is wound or plain and be sure to replace it with the same.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Matt Pleasant


From:
Tennessee, USA
Post  Posted 15 Oct 2019 1:23 pm    
Reply with quote

Third time I've read and used the info in this post. Thank you!! A real time and headache saver.
_________________
Oh what a boring old world it would be
If everyone thought and acted like me.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Jump to:  
Please review our Forum Rules and Policies
Our Online Catalog
Strings, CDs, instruction, and steel guitar accessories
www.SteelGuitarShopper.com

The Steel Guitar Forum
148 S. Cloverdale Blvd.
Cloverdale, CA 95425 USA

Click Here to Send a Donation


BIAB Styles
Ray Price Shuffles for Band-in-a-Box
by Jim Baron