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Topic: Lube: am I grinding something away? |
Glenn Demichele
From:
(20mi N of) Chicago Illinois, USA
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Posted 28 Dec 2017 2:22 pm |
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I have a 1995 D10 Franklin I bought new. I lubed it for years with 3 in 1. After a few naphtha rinses, I've been using only fri-flow for the past 3 years. I usually lube it upside down in the case with a paper towel under the changer. At first I think the liquid carrier in the tri-flow was rinsing out old oil gunk. Lately though I might be grinding up aluminum. Attached is a pic of the paper towel. Way more dirt coming out of e9. What do you guys think?
_________________
Franklin D10 8&5, Excel D10 8&5, homemade buffer/overdrive, Moyo pedal, GT-001 effects, 2x BAM200 for stereo. 2x GW8003 8" driver in homemade closed-box. Also NV400 etc. etc... |
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Mike Wheeler
From:
Delaware, Ohio, USA
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Posted 28 Dec 2017 3:17 pm
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I seriously doubt you're doing any grinding. I've used TriFlow for many, many years and have never seen it cause what you are seeing. I've only seen gunk rinsed out like you describe.
Maybe there's still some old gunk washing out. From what I've gathered, Franklin steels have tight tolerances, so it might be hard for the TriFlow carrier fluid to loosen all the gunk...so you see a little at a time coming loose.
But, if I were you, I'd pull the changer, disassemble it and totally clean it. Then drown it all in TriFlow, let it dry, and reassemble. I've done that with several of my Universals with great results...and with TriFlow I don't need to add more as time goes by. It lasts a very long time.
If you don't feel confident enough to do the above on your own, have it done by someone you trust. It's not a job for the faint of heart.
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Best regards,
Mike |
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Michael Yahl
From:
Troy, Texas!
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Posted 28 Dec 2017 4:21 pm
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Whenever you lube any aluminum component and it is in contact with anything else you will get the black residue.
When you polish aluminum, the residue is black. It's just a chemical reaction with the alloys of aluminum whether it's cast or wrought material.
Nothing to worry about. Now if you can see minute shiny flakes in the residue that you've flushed, then you might have a problem.
_________________
"Don't fergit to kiss yer horse!"
'72 Sho-Bud Professional D10, (in pieces .....), '78 MSA Classic XL D10, '69 Emmons PP, Fender 2000
Peavey Session 500 BW, Crate Digital Modeling Amp
PSG PARTS
http://www.psgparts.com/ |
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Glenn Demichele
From:
(20mi N of) Chicago Illinois, USA
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Posted 28 Dec 2017 5:12 pm
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Thanks:
One reason I am worried: I had been seeing less and less dark stuff with every re-flush with Tri-Flow, but this is the darkest I've seen in a long time.
Also, I followed Jack Stoner's Franklin changer rebuild posts, and I don't think I have the stomach for that.
Does everybody still think Tri-Flow's the best, or should I go back to something else?
_________________
Franklin D10 8&5, Excel D10 8&5, homemade buffer/overdrive, Moyo pedal, GT-001 effects, 2x BAM200 for stereo. 2x GW8003 8" driver in homemade closed-box. Also NV400 etc. etc... |
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Bobby Boggs
From:
Upstate SC.
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Posted 28 Dec 2017 5:36 pm
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Thank you Michael Yahl. I wish b0b would make your post a sticky.
b. |
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John Swain
From:
Winchester, Va
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Posted 28 Dec 2017 7:26 pm
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| I'd say not to worry, I've used 3in1 for forty years and the black ooze is the norm. |
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Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 28 Dec 2017 9:09 pm Lube: am I grinding something away
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When you have bare aluminum + human sweat and oils = BLACK GOO. Even some chrome plating if not kept coated or waxed will give off the Black GOO.
I had a friend who wanted a light weight bar. I had an Aluminum bar made, Sent to ship fitting chrome shop on Virginia coast. He took it on tour to New England States in summer. After a few days BLACK GOO covered his hand after every show. Had to go back to his heavy bar. |
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Kevin Fix
From:
Michigan, USA
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Posted 29 Dec 2017 8:09 pm Lube
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| The black deposit will always be there. I use a light weight synthetic oil. Has the best anti friction and the best lubricity qualities. I am a retired HD truck mechanic. It was the best for anti wear properties. More slippery meaning it moved with less effort also. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 30 Dec 2017 1:30 am
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Agree, not to worry. I took apart two 1995 Emmons changers this year that were overcome with black goo , cleaned and polished them, used light 3 in 1 oil, reassembled them and every now and then I still get a trace of black goo at the back of the changer . It's like Michael and others have stated above, chemical reaction. I believe that the two changers I pulled (1995 Legande II) had never been apart but lube has been added way too many times. They were a black goo mess. Actually disgusting !
It is possible that the black goo is overwhelming and a full changer disassembly and cleaning should be done. Many times we just add way too much lube and this amplifies the issue.
You will be quite shocked as to how dirty the changer is should you pull it apart . The rinse can only do so much and in my opinion, the rinse should be done very sparingly . If you see black goo and then try to rinse it with more lube, you are just creating more black goo on top of the existing black goo. The rinse cannot clean the axles or the spacers on the axles, which is the primary location where the black goo is showing it's ugly face. Not the fingers, the axles.
Your Steel is a 1995, if the changers have not been pulled it's probably time as it is now 22 years. A full tear down and cleaning is not out of the question.
best to you !
t
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Glenn Demichele
From:
(20mi N of) Chicago Illinois, USA
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Posted 30 Dec 2017 10:00 am
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Thanks Tony.
_________________
Franklin D10 8&5, Excel D10 8&5, homemade buffer/overdrive, Moyo pedal, GT-001 effects, 2x BAM200 for stereo. 2x GW8003 8" driver in homemade closed-box. Also NV400 etc. etc... |
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Billy Carr
From:
Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)
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Posted 30 Dec 2017 11:09 am psg
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| I like Rem-Oil and sometimes Singer sewing machine oil. Never a problem. Rem Oil idea came from Bobby Bowman and the machine oil idea from Terry Bethel. |
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John N Norris
From:
Georgia, USA
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Posted 30 Dec 2017 11:29 am Black goo
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Any time you rub two pieces of Aluminum together, you will have black residue.
Speaking from almost 50 years in the Aircraft industry. 32 years as a Machinist and sheet metal, the last 16 years as a machine parts Inspector.
If you take Aluminum polish and polish Aluminum, you will always get the black residue. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 30 Dec 2017 4:28 pm
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| John is precisely correct. The black residue (actually aluminum dust) has nothing to do with a chemical reaction, or what you use as a lubricant. It's simply a result of the wearing away of the surface of the metal. |
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Glenn Demichele
From:
(20mi N of) Chicago Illinois, USA
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Posted 30 Dec 2017 4:32 pm
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...so, that's my root question: if I'm wearing away material, is my "lubricant" not working correctly?
_________________
Franklin D10 8&5, Excel D10 8&5, homemade buffer/overdrive, Moyo pedal, GT-001 effects, 2x BAM200 for stereo. 2x GW8003 8" driver in homemade closed-box. Also NV400 etc. etc... |
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John N Norris
From:
Georgia, USA
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Posted 30 Dec 2017 6:07 pm Black stuff
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Glenn, if you are using 3 in 1 oil or simular type of good oil. You are good to go.
And it only takes a small amount of oil.
Quit worrying and start Picking .
John |
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Glenn Demichele
From:
(20mi N of) Chicago Illinois, USA
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Posted 30 Dec 2017 11:09 pm
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I used 3 in 1 for about 17 years, then switched to tri-flow about 3 years ago after some naphtha rinses. Gunk came out at first, then very little gunk as the tri-flow carrier cleaned things up, then lately some gunk after more tri-flow, which prompted my post. Guitar still plays well though.
_________________
Franklin D10 8&5, Excel D10 8&5, homemade buffer/overdrive, Moyo pedal, GT-001 effects, 2x BAM200 for stereo. 2x GW8003 8" driver in homemade closed-box. Also NV400 etc. etc... |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 30 Dec 2017 11:39 pm
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THIS HAS BEEN GONE OVER AGAIN AND AGAIN. IF YOU LUBE STAYS WET, IT GRABS AND HOLDS DUST, WHICH IS NOT GOOD. DUST CAN BE VERY AGGRESSIVE. CLEAN UP AND USE TFE. WHEN I WORKED AT PERFORMANCE GUITARS, WE NEVER USED OIL. OILS FROM YOUR HANDS WILL EVENTUALLY GUNK THINGS UP/ TAKE THE CHANGER APART, CLEAN IT, AND USE MORE TFE.
_________________
Dr. Z Surgical Steel amp, amazing!
"74 Bud S-10 3&6
'73 Bud S-10 3&5(under construction)
'63 Fingertip S-10, at James awaiting 6 knees
'57 Strat, LP Blue
'91 Tele with 60's Maple neck
Dozen more guitars!
Dozens of amps, but SF Quad reverb, Rick Johnson cabs. JBL 15, '64 Vibroverb for at home.
'52 and '56 Pro Amps |
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Bobby Boggs
From:
Upstate SC.
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Posted 31 Dec 2017 8:04 am
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| Quote: |
| Guitar still plays well though. |
Glenn, if it still plays great. Unless you're bored and have a dedicated work area. I vote leave it as it is.
I have a friend who has a 1980 model. The changers have never been pulled out of it. In his own words, it plays better, (Softer with the same amount of changer throw than his new one. Which is one of the last, if not the very last D-10 that Franklin built.
Paul Jr has several guitars from the 95 era. Ask him how many times he's had the changers removed and cleaned? I have no way of knowing. But my guess is 0.
b. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 31 Dec 2017 8:38 am
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well I don't say take the changer apart on a whim, only if necessary. I did both of mine on the Legrande out of necessity as the black goo was oozing out of each changer bridge and my right hand was becoming BLACK each time I sat and played. A rinse was not going to solve that. Clearly the previous owner(s) added lube way to often, and what kind ? who knows. All lube is not equal or compatible .
What I did find however was that the axle spacers were basically stuck in place and the axle was beginning to show grooves. No rinse in the world can resolve that. The guitar still played just fine that was not the issue, the continuous oozing of black goo was the issue.
Not anymore...
The axle required some time on the fine wire wheel brush to smooth it out and the spacers required cleaning on both the inner and outer surfaces. Same with the changer fingers where they mount the axle, some serious scrubbing was required.
Ask me how it plays now ! 
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 31 Dec 2017 7:48 pm
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| Glenn Demichele wrote: |
| ...so, that's my root question: if I'm wearing away material, is my "lubricant" not working correctly? |
You can never really prevent wear, you can only minimize it. The biggest problem (next to never lubing) is lubing too much or too often. Understand that adding lubricant (any kind of lubricant) in addition to freeing things up, does two things - it both carries some dirt out of the changer, and it carries some into the changer. This is why I recommend lubing no more than once every year or two. And even then, do it very sparingly. If "goo" is coming up out of the changer, that tells you there's probably already an excess of lube in there, and no more should be added unless the action is getting stiff or slow.
Every couple of years, remove the strings, and then turn the guitar over and remove the springs. Then, just using your fingers, it will be easy to tell if everything is moving freely. |
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Glenn Demichele
From:
(20mi N of) Chicago Illinois, USA
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Posted 1 Jan 2018 12:13 am
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More good advice
_________________
Franklin D10 8&5, Excel D10 8&5, homemade buffer/overdrive, Moyo pedal, GT-001 effects, 2x BAM200 for stereo. 2x GW8003 8" driver in homemade closed-box. Also NV400 etc. etc... |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 1 Jan 2018 2:20 am
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[quote="Donny Hinson"]
You can never really prevent wear, you can only minimize it. The biggest problem (next to never lubing) is lubing too much or too often. Understand that adding lubricant (any kind of lubricant) in addition to freeing things up, does two things - it both carries some dirt out of the changer, and it carries some into the changer. This is why I recommend lubing no more than once every year or two. And even then, do it very sparingly. If "goo" is coming up out of the changer, that tells you there's probably already an excess of lube in there, and no more should be added .
fully agree...
Or spend about 10 hours taking it apart, inspect it, see what ya got, clean it, lube it and put it all back together.
Now each time you sit and play, each time you look at it, you know exactly what ya got. No more guessing !
A new reference has been set.
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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John N Norris
From:
Georgia, USA
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Posted 1 Jan 2018 5:56 pm Black goo
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What Donny is saying is true. Any time you rub two pieces of metal together, you are going to get friction, thus the wear factor. I don’t know why manufacturers don’t put a .003 or .005 piece of Teflon between each finger. Teflon would last many years.
John |
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Mike Wheeler
From:
Delaware, Ohio, USA
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Posted 1 Jan 2018 8:40 pm Re: Black goo
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| John N Norris wrote: |
What Donny is saying is true. Any time you rub two pieces of metal together, you are going to get friction, thus the wear factor. I don’t know why manufacturers don’t put a .003 or .005 piece of Teflon between each finger. Teflon would last many years.
John |
TriFlow is as close as we can get right now...when applied after a full tear-down and cleaning.
_________________
Best regards,
Mike |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 2 Jan 2018 3:55 pm Re: Black goo
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| John N Norris wrote: |
What Donny is saying is true. Any time you rub two pieces of metal together, you are going to get friction, thus the wear factor. I don’t know why manufacturers don’t put a .003 or .005 piece of Teflon between each finger. Teflon would last many years.
John |
Well, yes, it would. But that would not resolve the issue because there would still be metal-to-metal contact between the fingers and the changer shaft, and this is where the loading (and most of the wear) Is taking place. While it's just a personal opinion, I also think that there are some steels torn down and rebuilt unnecessarily. I tend to not fix things that are operating properly, and I have seen several tear down/rebuilds that left the steel in worse adjustment (playing condition) than it was in previously. It's definitely not a job for someone with little mechanical aptitude. |
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