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Post new topic C6 copedent suggestions?
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Author Topic:  C6 copedent suggestions?
Dave Stroud


From:
Canyon, TX
Post Posted 5 Dec 2017 7:23 pm     Reply with quote

I'm C6 illiterate, but I'm going to start learning it using Paul's method in a month.

I've got a 9x6 D10 to work with, and I'm about to start rodding the C6 neck.

Here's a few questions I have:

1.) Since I'm new at C6 and learning from the Franklin method, should I just change my copedent to his while I learn? It could always be changed later...

2.) If I should try Paul's copedent, is that 4th pedal more useful on the C6 neck or as the Franklin pedal on the E9th neck? I'm not sure if Paul's guitar really is this way.... but according to his posted copedent, he has 9 changes in that one pedal. Not sure if my Fessy can handle that kind of sorcery!!

3.) Or I could just go standard emmons C6 with franklin pedal at 4, or trade that 4th pedal for a John Hughey on p9 (lowering strings 4 & 8 a 1/2 step).

I know these copedent questions are a little silly since my tastes will develop and change with time. But I'm hoping to have the best starting point I can get.

Any thoughts?
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b0b


From:
Northern California
Post Posted 5 Dec 2017 8:03 pm     Reply with quote

Buddy Emmons C6th with the 4 levers doing one change each is absolutely brilliant, IMHO. People (including myself) try to improve on it, but I don't believe that anyone has ever come up with anything better.
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Lane Gray


From:
Topeka, KS
Post Posted 5 Dec 2017 10:37 pm     Reply with quote

With 9 and 6, you haven't made clear where knees 5 and 6 are.
Do you have 4 on each neck, or 5 E9th and three C6th? If you only have 3 C6th, I'd seriously think about adding one or two more.
Because I don't like double-footing, I have P5 on my LKR. Because one pedal became a knee, pedals 6-8 moved over 1, and P8 raises 3 and 7 to C# (if you want an occasional high G and still want the D, hitting P5 and raising the Cs gives you the top 9 strings of C6th, but in A (you go up 3 frets to get back to C).
Raising and lowering 4 a half tone is right handy (I lower 8 to G and 4 to G#)
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Tony Prior


From:
Charlotte NC..
Post Posted 6 Dec 2017 1:48 am     Reply with quote

While of course if your co-pendant is exactly the same as your instructors, that can eliminate some mild confusion. But whats more important is if the instructor is talking about lower 3 or raising 4 ( C6 for example) you have it on your guitar and know where it is. Exact physical location as your instructors guitar is not the important factor, having it and knowing where it is on your guitar is the determining factor.


I'll use my 2 Steels with C6th as an example. Both only have 2 C6th levers, lower 3 and raise 4, but they are on opposite knee levers on the guitars. If a study requires additional lever pulls, then I need to compensate.

I also prescribe to what Bob says above, 8 + 4 standard Emmons ( 5 and 2 C6) is a brilliant tuning, sure there are more things we can add but at the end of the day it stands the test of time.
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Ian Rae


From:
Redditch, England
Post Posted 6 Dec 2017 2:26 am     Reply with quote

I second b0b and Tony. What Buddy Emmons came up with has never been surpassed, and is even more remarkable if (as legend has it) he devised it under some pressure of time.

Tutors assume 5,6,7,8 and the lever to lower 3 a half step. You'll be a long way in before you need anything else.

Next would be to raise 3 to C#; then lower 4 to G#; and last of all the 4th string raise to Bb. That's fairly redundant on its own because you'll already have got used to making a 7th chord with 5,6 and the first lever. But if you raise 3 to D along with it you have a useful change that John Hughey used.
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Dave Stroud


From:
Canyon, TX
Post Posted 6 Dec 2017 6:11 am     Reply with quote

Thanks for your suggestions.

Knee levers 5&6 are a LKV and a second LKR. I was assuming people just add the C6 lever changes to the existing levers. Should I consider adding a few more levers? If so, where? Is it better to have 4 dedicated C6 pedals?
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John Swain


From:
Newberry,SC
Post Posted 6 Dec 2017 7:02 am     Reply with quote

I believe B0b was referring to Buddy's regular 8+7 guitars that he played from the mid 70s on. So 5 pedals and 4 knee levers for the C6 neck! Buddy sometimes had pedal 4 raise only his 6th string to F.Buck Reid took a start from that to a reverse 6th pedal with whole tone raise on 10. With 9 fl pedals I would use 1-4 on E9 and 5-9 on C6. IMHO, C raises in octaves, A raises and lowers in octaves! JS.
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Ian Rae


From:
Redditch, England
Post Posted 6 Dec 2017 7:07 am     Reply with quote

Dave Stroud wrote:
I was assuming people just add the C6 lever changes to the existing levers.

That's ok for the right knee and the vertical (maybe), but be mindful that on C6 the "home position" for your left foot (and knee) is considerably to the right of where it is for E9.

Dave Stroud also wrote:
Is it better to have 4 dedicated C6 pedals?

I would say so, because that's what works for most people and most guitars. Even though I got ideas of my own later, I started that way and I can attest that copying Buddy Emmons does no harm.
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Richard Sinkler


From:
Oakdale, California
Post Posted 6 Dec 2017 7:17 am     Reply with quote

I would say almost all place C6 changes on their own levers between the left E9 levers and the right knee levers. Having changes on the left E9 Levers might interfere with reaching the C6 pedals easily.

I wouldn't bother rodding your guitar like Paul (unless you think you will figure out how to use them). He will most likely stay with the standard changes that almost all C6 players have. It wouldn't help many if he started teaching for changes that most don't have.
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Herb Steiner


From:
Spicewood TX 78669
Post Posted 6 Dec 2017 7:44 am     Reply with quote

Ian Rae wrote:
I second b0b and Tony. What Buddy Emmons came up with has never been surpassed, and is even more remarkable if (as legend has it) he devised it under some pressure of time.

Tutors assume 5,6,7,8 and the lever to lower 3 a half step. You'll be a long way in before you need anything else.

Next would be to raise 3 to C#; then lower 4 to G#; and last of all the 4th string raise to Bb. That's fairly redundant on its own because you'll already have got used to making a 7th chord with 5,6 and the first lever. But if you raise 3 to D along with it you have a useful change that John Hughey used.


Ian feels the knee lever change of A-Bb on s.4 is the least important knee lever change... for his bag of licks, perhaps so. Alternately, I feel it's the second MOST IMPORTANT change, after C-B on s.3.

I use A-Bb not only for a dominant in open position; I also use it for 11th chords w/p.6, augmented/passing chords w/p.5, and 7b9 chords w/p.8. I also use it melodically and not just chordally. That is, using the moving note in a horizontal melodic line, rather than a vertically voiced chord.

Likewise with p.4 raising s.4 A-B. It's not redundant with either the C-B lever or the s.4 raise on p.7. But that's another can of worms I've discussed more than several times here in Forumland.
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Greg Cutshaw


From:
Corry, PA, USA
Post Posted 6 Dec 2017 8:26 am     Reply with quote

I use the A to Bb lever more than any other knee lever. Getting a dominant seventh out of it is something that's available but I rarely use. Somewhere I've got a bunch of tabs showing its use with P6 and P5.

Another really useful change that requires no extra pedals or knees is the 1st string D to D# when added to P8. It acts a bit like the F# to G change on the E9th first string but also does a lot more things. When combined with the A to Bb change, you can get a lot more altered chord voicings and play a lot more chord melodies!
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Brint Hannay


From:
Maryland, USA
Post Posted 6 Dec 2017 8:30 am     Reply with quote

b0b wrote:
Buddy Emmons C6th with the 4 levers doing one change each is absolutely brilliant, IMHO. People (including myself) try to improve on it, but I don't believe that anyone has ever come up with anything better.
(emphasis added)
In his "Basic C6" course, Buddy recommends having the "C#" lever raise both strings 3 and 7 to C#. I have this and in my attempts at C6 I find it quite useful. I have another guitar that has only the 3rd string C#, and I find myself frustrated by the absence of the 7th string change. I suppose this is because I am so accustomed to having a range of voicing options for chords at a given position, a la E9, with its many changes in both octaves.

Of course the 7th string C# note is available on P8, but combining P8 with the C# on RKL is so far almost prohibitively awkward for me, whether using the left foot or the right foot for P8.

All that said, great players like Paul F. and Tommy W. don't have this lever, so what do I know?
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b0b


From:
Northern California
Post Posted 6 Dec 2017 9:36 am     Reply with quote

Ian Rae wrote:
Next would be to raise 3 to C#; then lower 4 to G#; and last of all the 4th string raise to Bb. ... if you raise 3 to D along with it you have a useful change that John Hughey used.

That may be handy, but it's already there on the split with P7 (3 C to D, 4 A to B) and the lever that lowers 4 A to G#.
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b0b


From:
Northern California
Post Posted 6 Dec 2017 9:48 am     Reply with quote

b0b wrote:
Buddy Emmons C6th with the 4 levers doing one change each is absolutely brilliant, IMHO. People (including myself) try to improve on it, but I don't believe that anyone has ever come up with anything better.
Brint Hannay wrote:
(emphasis added)
In his "Basic C6" course, Buddy recommends having the "C#" lever raise both strings 3 and 7 to C#.

I was not aware of that. Buddy was always right. Smile

Raising both C's is very useful, but most people add that change to a right knee that's also pulling on the E9th neck. It makes for a very stiff lever if you have 2 C6th pulls and 2 (or 3!) E9th pulls on the same lever.

I pull both C strings to C# on a dedicated C6th lever (LKL). It's very useful as it gives a full A6th chord with P5. Having it on LKL makes sense to me because, like the F lever LKL on E9th, it raises the root tones.
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Ian Rae


From:
Redditch, England
Post Posted 6 Dec 2017 11:16 am     Reply with quote

Herb and Greg and b0b know way more than me about C6 (and most other things too) so take note of what they point out that I have missed Smile
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Herb Steiner


From:
Spicewood TX 78669
Post Posted 6 Dec 2017 11:17 am     Reply with quote

b0b wrote:


Raising both C's is very useful, but most people add that change to a right knee that's also pulling on the E9th neck. It makes for a very stiff lever if you have 2 C6th pulls and 2 (or 3!) E9th pulls on the same lever.

I pull both C strings to C# on a dedicated C6th lever (LKL). It's very useful as it gives a full A6th chord with P5. Having it on LKL makes sense to me because, like the F lever LKL on E9th, it raises the root tones.


On all my guitars, both PP and the Infinity, I raise both C strings to C# on the same lever as I raise s.1 and s.7 on E9 neck F#-G. I don't find the pull exceedingly stiff or hard at all. Rather comfortable, in fact. The pulls are actually pretty balanced since they're both 1/2 tone raises on similarly tensioned strings.

If that lever raised s.1 on E9 a whole tone (F#-G#) longer lever travel would be needed and the C6 changes would feel less "immediate." No bueno.

Raising both C strings to C# is important for its use with p.5, which gives a straight A6 tuning on strings 2 through 9 (5th tone on s.2) and an 11th on s.1 (D). If you're one of those who raises s.1 G-G#, you have a Major 7th tone (G#) on that string.
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Jeff Harbour


From:
Western Ohio, USA
Post Posted 6 Dec 2017 12:55 pm     Reply with quote

If I'm thinking of the correct one, then Paul has stated before that his left-most C6 pedal was created to change the entire tuning for one particular song. I think it might have been "We All Remember You" from his 2-CD Collection. Anyway, that pedal with a bunch of changes can definitely be left off.
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Jeff Harbour


From:
Western Ohio, USA
Post Posted 6 Dec 2017 1:02 pm     Reply with quote

Brint Hannay wrote:
b0b wrote:
Buddy Emmons C6th with the 4 levers doing one change each is absolutely brilliant, IMHO. People (including myself) try to improve on it, but I don't believe that anyone has ever come up with anything better.
(emphasis added)
In his "Basic C6" course, Buddy recommends having the "C#" lever raise both strings 3 and 7 to C#. I have this and in my attempts at C6 I find it quite useful. I have another guitar that has only the 3rd string C#, and I find myself frustrated by the absence of the 7th string change. I suppose this is because I am so accustomed to having a range of voicing options for chords at a given position, a la E9, with its many changes in both octaves.

Of course the 7th string C# note is available on P8, but combining P8 with the C# on RKL is so far almost prohibitively awkward for me, whether using the left foot or the right foot for P8.

All that said, great players like Paul F. and Tommy W. don't have this lever, so what do I know?


Yes, raising both C's on a single lever in conjunction with Pedal 5 (and up three frets) actually gives you on strings 2-10 the entire tuning that you would have on strings 1-9 with a G on top. I love this change... Can't live without it!
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