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Topic: Basic tune-up for just tuning? |
Tom Bradshaw
From:
Walnut Creek, California, USA
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Posted 29 Nov 2017 4:34 pm |
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I recently purchased a Korg tuner. For the basic E9th tuning I first determined the amount of cabinet drop in the guitar I was tuning. I did this by depressing the A & B pedals. It was 3 cents. I set the 4th string 3 cents above the pitch I wanted to end up with. I then proceeded to tune all the remaining strings harmonically, obtaining what I felt was a perfect (Just-tuned) in-tune sound on all the remaining open strings.
I ended up charting the strings as follows:
F# - +5 cents
D# - 0
G# - -5 cents
E - +3 cents
B - +10 cents
G# - -5 cents
F# - +5 cents
E - +3 cents
D - +10 cents
B - +10 cents
Question: How does my chart compare to yours? I suspect other guitars will have different amounts of cabinet drop, so compensate for that with your results. ...Tom |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 29 Nov 2017 5:02 pm
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I set my E to 5 cents sharp because it's easy to see the line on the tuner. I tune the rest of the strings like this.
F# - 0 cents
D# - -5
G# - -5 cents
E - +5 cents
B - +5 cents
G# - -5 cents
F# - 0 cents
E - +5 cents
D - +5 cents
B - +5 cents
It's not perfect harmonically like yours, Tom, but it's easy to see and it works for me.
_________________
-ššš- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 2 Dec 2017 10:21 am
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Interesting that your B's are tuned sharper than the E's.
I tune my Stage One according to Doug Earnest's chart. The open string harmonics do not match at all, but chords sure sound pretty.
F# +8
D# -4
G# -4
E +10
B +8
G# -4
F# +8
E. +10
D. +8
B. +8 |
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Rick Abbott
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 3 Dec 2017 7:31 am
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| b0b wrote: |
I set my E to 5 cents sharp because it's easy to see the line on the tuner. I tune the rest of the strings like this.
F# - 0 cents
D# - -5 cents
G# - -5 cents
E - +5 cents
B - +5 cents
G# - -5 cents
F# - 0 cents
E - +5 cents
D - +5 cents
B - +5 cents
It's not perfect harmonically like yours, Tom, but it's easy to see and it works for me. |
So, b0b, what do you tune your F-lever to?
_________________
RICK ABBOTT
Sho~Bud D-10 Professional #7962
Remington T-8, Wakarusa 5e3 clone
1953 Stromberg-Carlson AU-35 |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 7 Dec 2017 2:53 pm
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Tom - I went through this with b0b several years ago and found there were several ways to approach this depending on how your ear perceives "in tune". The tuner doesn't always match hearing, even when "sweetened".
And FWIW string gage, type, wind & tension differences change the picture entirely - as does scale length. So for someone to use exactly what you do they'd best have exactly the same setup, scale length and specific strings.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 7 Dec 2017 5:30 pm
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Bingo, Jim. Which is why sweetened tuning works best when people make their own charts.
At one point, I was into the perfect sweetened tuning, and each guitar I owned sounded best with a slightly different chart.
I've since gone to a "good is more practical than perfect" of all notes to 0 except for the following, which are all between -4 and -6: A#, C#, D#, E# & G#.
Yes, ideally the E# should be doubly flat since it's the third to another third, but I don't bother (B0b thinks I'm either weird or giving the change short shrift, but the F lever is probably my least used).
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 11 Dec 2017 10:09 am
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Am I missing something on this tuning stuff? I've got Peterson tuners, one flip and the other new one. Though they will get my guitar close, it's not on the money to my ears. I just tune E's to 440 with both pedals down and then I tune beats out of rest of strings, pulls and lowers. That seems more in tune to my ears.
Back during the old Boss TU-15 tuner days, I had a chart to tune to and seemed to work pretty well. Don't remember all settings but I remember the B to C# was a 436.5 to a 438 and the E raise lever to F 433. Looks like your chart Tom is not even close to the old Boss tunings we used but again, I don't know how to convert cents to hertz.
I'm sure everyone has different tunings that work for them just like some tune everything to 440. Tried that and it's not even close as to what my ears hear.
Never done this but I'm going to tune my guitar up to perfect tuning to my ears and then see where it comes in on a tuner. I'll post results.
_________________
Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Jeff Harbour
From:
Western Ohio, USA
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Posted 11 Dec 2017 12:42 pm
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My Open E9 tuning has the following offsets:
F# = -7.5
D# = -12
G# = -15
E = 0
B = 0
G# = -15
F# = -7.5
E = 0
D = 0
B = 0
(NOTE: These are with the Reference A set to 442.7)
Pedals & Levers are:
A = -9
C# = -15
F = -34
G = +7.5
Anything else done by a pedal or lever is the same as the open tuning.
When I made the chart, I didn't consider "cabinet drop" as its own entity... So, any effect it may have was inherently compensated for due to the way I came up with my offsets and reference pitch. |
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Jeff Harbour
From:
Western Ohio, USA
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Posted 11 Dec 2017 12:46 pm
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| Henry Matthews wrote: |
| ...I don't know how to convert cents to hertz... |
4 Cents = 1 Hertz (of the A440 reference). |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 11 Dec 2017 12:49 pm
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| Henry Matthews wrote: |
| Am I missing something on this tuning stuff? |
No Henry, you aren't. I have always tuned musical instruments by ear on the grounds that ears are what people listen to them with.
| Henry also wrote: |
| I don't know how to convert cents to hertz. |
You can't. No-one can. A percentage represents a ratio between two quantities; a number of Hertz is a single quantity.
| then he wrote: |
| Never done this but I'm going to tune my guitar up to perfect tuning to my ears and then see where it comes in on a tuner. |
Why not just tune it up and leave it at that?
To pick up on Lane's point about practicality versus perfection, although the ear is fairly tolerant of fourths and fifths, if a naturally-tuned third goes at all flat it sounds like death. So I keep a margin of safety and tune them all very slightly sharp with a slight beat about the speed of a slow vibrato which masks it.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 11 Dec 2017 4:03 pm
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| Henry Matthews wrote: |
| I don't know how to convert cents to hertz. |
Ian points out that you can't, which is mostly right, and why using the "Hertz" notation is silly, and stupid, and makes those who use it look both. It's a shorthand for (for instance) "I tune my F lever to be in tune if A=433". But in the western world, A=440.
I suppose it IS a handy reminder just how far you deviate from ET, but only when you think about it.
Your tuner almost certainly has a cents scale; use it.
Jeff Harbour then states that it's 1 "Hertz" equals 4 cents.
This SORTA works, as 1 "Hertz" going down is 4.04 cents (see the chart at https://pages.mtu.edu/~suits/notefreqs.html), as AĆ¢ĀĀ“=440, and G#Ć¢ĀĀ“=415.30 a difference of 24.7Hz going down. So 439 is KINDA 4.04% of the way to G#, but it's not ACTUALLY, because it's a logarithmic scale and the lower THE frequency, the more cents (that's hundredths of a semitone/fret.
The step from AĆ¢ĀĀ“ to A#Ć¢ĀĀ“ is 26.16Hz, so going up 1 "Hertz" is close to, but not exactly, 3.822 (it averages that over the gap, but it's more down lower).
So 4 cents per cycle per second is close, but only in the same sense that your thumb is an inch wide. Yeah, more or less.
On most modern digital tuners I've seen lately, the only frequency displays I've seen aren't needle deviations, but the actual frequency. If you tune your Es to 442 and your Fs to 433, then you will be lowering your Es from just sharp of A to noticeably flat of A.
EVERYTHING is A.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 11 Dec 2017 7:21 pm Re: Basic tune-up for just tuning?
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| Tom Bradshaw wrote: |
I then proceeded to tune all the remaining strings harmonically
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Does this mean you used natural harmonics - i.e., matching the harmonic at string 10 fret 5 with the harmonic at string 8 fret 7? No beats? |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 11 Dec 2017 9:13 pm
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Lane, back when I first started playing steel, everyone around here used hertz and those chromatic Boss tuners with a tuning chart that was susposed to straight from Buddy Emmons. I don't know that for a fact but that's what I was told. Don't think the tuners even had cents on them. I have never used cents on any tuner because after about a year playing, I started tuning my E's and everything else by ear therefore I never had a need for the cents on tuners.
I do have two Peterson tuners but only use whichever one I have with me with me just to touch up with either band playing or around other noise.
There are still couple players around here that still use those Boss tuners. They worked quite well and the tuning charts that we had would get your guitar really close.
Ian, you are correct, sharp sounds much better than flat. As a fiddle player also, I learned that in a hurry, in fact, a well known violinist told me that once. I think some of the pro players had different tunings they used. I think Weldon tuned his G#'s a little sharp of what most people do and on the other hand, Hal, tuned them a little flat. Pee Wee Rogers and I were talking about tuning one day and he told me that. Tunings are a mysterious thing and looks like everything should be tuned 440 and it would work but it won't.
_________________
Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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