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Post new topic Keyless PSGs
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Author Topic:  Keyless PSGs
Greg Cutshaw


From:
Corry, PA, USA
Post Posted 1 Dec 2017 5:51 pm     Reply with quote

My Excel 12 string keyless:

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Excel%2012%20String%20Keyless/Excel%2012%20String%20Keyless.html


Changer layout ( the top lower should say 1 slot):

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Hans Holzherr


From:
Bern, Switzerland
Post Posted 2 Dec 2017 7:41 am     Reply with quote

Ian Rae wrote:
Schild are clearly well-engineered, but their keyless tuner misses the point I think, as it's as long as a conventional one and has just as much length of string between the nut and the puller.


It isn't a design flaw. It was a conscious decision based on.....

1) Some people say that the string section behind the rollers plays a part in the tone of the instrument.

2) This section of the strings is more or less equally long for all strings, possibly evening out effect (1).

3) The main reason why the keyless mechanism on a Schild is as long as it is is to offer enough room for a 9th and possibly a 10th pedal. Also, a player may want to have pedal 'zero' at the 'zero' position, not at position 1.
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Ian Rae


From:
Redditch, England
Post Posted 2 Dec 2017 11:10 am     Reply with quote

Hans,

That all makes perfect sense. Sometimes what seem like imperfections from an engineering point of view can lend character to an instrument. And the main objection to keyless PSGs is nothing to do with how they function but the loss of space for the leftmost pedals.

I'm sorry to leave Schild out of consideration but the changer has only three raises which is not enough for me.
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No-name 60s D10 8x5, homebuilt Uni 12 7x5, Hilton pedal, pair of Fender 112s
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Ian Rae


From:
Redditch, England
Post Posted 2 Dec 2017 11:40 am     Reply with quote

Damir and Greg,

Thank you - now I get the picture, literally Smile

It looks as though Excel may be the only choice for what I want to do copedent-wise. I've had a bit of a negative revelation. This is the copedent I have on my homemade uni with the Kline-style changer:-



Taking string 5 as an example, the E9 C#s are different from the B6 one, so to me that's 2 raises and 1 lower. But in Scissorworld that's 3 raises. Now if I also wanted to have another B6 C# on a lever:-



that's four raises. On my guitar it would still be 2 (if I had anywhere to put the lever), but it rules out Williams, Schild and GFI.

Getting back to Excel, I am amazed at their C6 lock. I would never want one as I've only ever learnt B6 and I tend to wander between the two tunings, but it testifies to their skill. I assume they can build one without.
_________________
No-name 60s D10 8x5, homebuilt Uni 12 7x5, Hilton pedal, pair of Fender 112s


Last edited by Ian Rae on 2 Dec 2017 11:43 am; edited 2 times in total
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Hans Holzherr


From:
Bern, Switzerland
Post Posted 2 Dec 2017 11:41 am     Reply with quote

Ian, good point on the 3/3 changer. I keep encouraging Peter Schild to add holes.... so far, to no avail. With slight modifications, there would be room for at least a 4/4 changer.

Good luck in your search!
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Hans Holzherr


From:
Bern, Switzerland
Post Posted 3 Dec 2017 10:57 pm     Reply with quote

Actually, Peter Schild built a 4/4 changer 6 years ago. The reason why he didn't pursue it was lack of demand, and now he has a stock of 3/3 changer fingers he needs to use in his guitars to be profitable.
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Les Wright


From:
Norfolk,England
Post Posted 4 Dec 2017 12:40 am     Reply with quote

Ian, when I purchased my Excel the Eb lock or C6th lock was an optional extra,which I didn't pursue.
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Dan Burnham


From:
Greenfield, Tennessee
Post Posted 4 Dec 2017 5:39 am     BMI in Business? Reply with quote

Ian,
Yes we are still in business. Our website was hacked and Jordan Howell our webmaster is having to rebuild from scratch. The website is done in WordPress and the hackers used one of the plugins to infect the whole site,

Dan
_________________
BMI Jet10 10 string, BMI S14, BMI SD14 Classic Tube 100. Don't know what it is? Ask me about it!
www.danburnham.com
www.classictubesound.com
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Ian Rae


From:
Redditch, England
Post Posted 5 Dec 2017 4:05 am     Reply with quote

Dan - thanks for popping up!

My main question is how many raises the BMI changer has. Three is enough for a totally basic uni, but to include some of the more sophisticated changes it's good to have 4 or even 5.

While I was researching Excel I read a couple of posts about measurements which I will respond to here. One member surmised that the 24.125" scale length was something to do with Japan being metric, but it's no more a round number in millimetres than 24.00" is. It's just a length some makers favour. Also someone who had tried one at a show thought the string spacing was slightly closer than expected, but in fact it's 8.7mm which translates as the 11/32" which has been traditional for a long time.
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No-name 60s D10 8x5, homebuilt Uni 12 7x5, Hilton pedal, pair of Fender 112s


Last edited by Ian Rae on 5 Dec 2017 2:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Ian Rae


From:
Redditch, England
Post Posted 5 Dec 2017 7:38 am     Reply with quote

Les, you set me thinking. That E to C mechanism is a wonder but I'd never go for it as I learned B6 from the beginning.

As for the Eb lock, I've never considered one and I'm quite content without it. But then I think, supposing it was there, it wouldn't mean I had to use it, and you never know, one day...
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b0b


From:
Northern California
Post Posted 5 Dec 2017 9:11 am     Reply with quote

I had a year to work out the D6th copedent for my new 10 string Sierra. Most of my charts had a lock lever on them. In the last month before rodding was to begin, I had a revelation that eliminated the lock lever and simplified the setup. Now I can't imagine what I was thinking - why would I ever need a lock lever? It's a complicated mechanical limitation.
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-b0b- (SGF Admin) a.k.a. Bobby Lee ♪ CopedentsRice & BeanWine Country SwingStella
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Jerry Overstreet


From:
Louisville Ky
Post Posted 5 Dec 2017 9:59 am     Reply with quote

b0b, any links or sound samples of the new keyless Sierra guitar with this copedent?

Interesting set-up. https://b0b.com/wp/?page_id=551
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Pete Burak


From:
Portland, OR USA
Post Posted 5 Dec 2017 2:30 pm     Reply with quote

I look forward to seeing your new Sierra in Phoenix soon, b0b.
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