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Topic: Melody |
Russell Adkins
From:
Louisiana, USA
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Posted 21 Oct 2017 8:09 pm |
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| When you play a melody lets say you play in 3rds (we are in the key of c to simplify that is ) ok playing a harnonized note with that melody and you want to add a third note to bring in more structure and balance and fill , now if you add the third not im guess it has to be from the key or scale that you are playing in right , is playing harmonized melody considered playing chord melody? what about three notes played as melody lines and if so where does that third note come from? and why so ? |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 21 Oct 2017 8:28 pm
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It's a big subject but, yes, i would consider playing 'harmonized melody' to be what guitarists call 'chord melody'. Now that harmonization can be with as few as 2 notes, or many more. If you want to add a 3rd note, there are many choices, depending on how 'inside' or 'outside' you want the sound to be. But, if you are staying very inside, then the note should normally come from the key of the song.
The first step is to think in triads (groups of 3 notes). Taking the key of C, the natural notes are:
C D E F G A B
Basic triads are usually created by playing every other note. For example:
CEG
DFA
EGB
FAC
GBD
ACE
BDF
If you know some chord theory, you'll recognize those triads as representing the following chords:
C Major
Dm
Em
F Major
G Major
Am
Bm(b5)
So those are all chords that one may find in a song in the key of C. Of course, there could be other chords too, but these are the basic, natural choices that don't require alterations or extensions.
So when you're harmonizing a melody in the key of C, before picking your notes, you really should know what the function of the chord is in that song. Is it the I (one) chord? The 4 chord? The 2m chord? If you know that, then you can look at the list above to see what other notes are in that chord. By the way, you don't always have to play the notes in the order shown. You could have a C Major chord, say, with the G in the bass and then E and then C. You might do that, for example, if C happens to be the melody note at that point and you want to keep the melody on top so it stands out.
Hope this is of some help in orienting you and getting you started.
_________________
www.JimCohen.com
www.RonstadtRevue.com
www.BeatsWalkin.com |
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Russell Adkins
From:
Louisiana, USA
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Posted 21 Oct 2017 9:08 pm
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| Thanks for the reply so fast , take this song (take these chains from my heart) e g c c d e g f e d according to what im thinking here is that to make this melody into traids you would use the chords like you would play the single notes e minor g maj c maj c maj d minor e minor g maj f maj e minor and d minor each played as a triad? |
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Bobby Nelson
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2017 9:18 am
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| Having a working knowledge of basic theory, after having force fed it to myself over the yrs, I understand that chord scale, having practiced it many times. I understand it more because it "sounds" right to me, rather than understanding the math of it on paper. I've always been a little puzzled however, by the last chord in the scale. You have it marked as a b5 chord, but a diminished works as well. That's my question: the other 6 chords are either straight major, or straight minor - Why does that dominant 7th tone have to be voiced this way to sound right? Is it just the way it is or is there some theoretical reason for it? |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 22 Oct 2017 9:34 am
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Bobby, you are correct that this is a diminished chord - really a diminished triad (3-note chord), as it has two minor 3rds stacked on top of each other (BDF). If you stacked one more minor third on top of that, (BDFAb), you'd have a "Dim7" chord, but the Ab does not occur in the C major scale, so it becomes an "alteration" of the natural tones (really, it's a double-flatted, or "diminished" 7th tone). That doesn't mean it's wrong or sounds bad - indeed, it often sounds great - I was just providing a basic answer consisting only of triads. Once you start adding a 4th tone to the chords, you have many more options available.
Hope that all makes sense.
_________________
www.JimCohen.com
www.RonstadtRevue.com
www.BeatsWalkin.com |
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Bobby Nelson
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2017 1:09 pm
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| Yeah Jim, it makes perfect sense. I was just wondering why the 7th chord in the scale has to have a diminished sound to sound right within the scale - probably a silly nit-picky question with the answer being that "it just has to" haha. |
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Russell Adkins
From:
Louisiana, USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2017 4:05 pm
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| I was wondering about the diminished also , thanks Jim for the info on that . Russ |
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John Alexander
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Posted 23 Oct 2017 11:34 am
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| Russell Adkins wrote: |
| Thanks for the reply so fast , take this song (take these chains from my heart) e g c c d e g f e d according to what im thinking here is that to make this melody into traids you would use the chords like you would play the single notes e minor g maj c maj c maj d minor e minor g maj f maj e minor and d minor each played as a triad? |
In a three-chord country tune like Take These Chains, you can keep it "country" by taking advantage of the fact that (1) each note of the major scale of the key you are in is contained in at least one of the chords I, IV and V, and (2) you can invert those triads so that the melody note you need is on top.
In the example you gave the first two notes of the melody are pick-up notes, and the first full measure starts on the note c, and the second measure starts on the following note e and ends on the next note e. Hank Williams would sing the pick-up notes and all of the following 7 notes over a C major chord played by the rhythm guitar, bass etc. In that section of the melody there are only two non-chord tones, d and f. All the other notes are contained in the C triad, and for those you could use inversions of the C triad to get the melody notes you need on the top of the chord. On the last note d the rhythm section changes to the V chord (G) so you could harmonize the d note with the rest of the G triad, possibly substituting f for g in the chord to make it a G7 chord.
How you handle the non-chord tones in the first two measures offers some choices. The first non-chord tone d is not very dissonant with the C major background, nor is a G triad very dissonant with it. So you could play a single note d, or harmonize it with the rest of a G major triad, or split the difference by playing the minor third interval formed by the notes b and g.
The non-chord tone f is very dissonant with the C major background, even for the singer, and it works primarily because (1) it's folky and (2) it falls on the third beat of the measure where a rhythm guitar, bass or piano is likely to be emphasizing the bass note g rather than the full C major chord (which contains the note e that is dissonant with the f melody not). Here you could play the f as a single note, or as a minor 6th interval (by adding an a below it), or as a IV triad with the root on top, or as a V7 with the seventh on top, or as a II minor in second inversion with the third of the D minor chord f on top, or as a diminished chord.
There are other possible solutions to all of the above. But the fancier you get with the likes of chord scales (scale-tone chords) using minor chords and diminished chords, the more likely you may be pulled aside and informed by someone that while it may be good, the audience doesn't understand, or more bluntly "It ain't country." As Lou Reed famously stated, once you go beyond two chords you are getting into jazz. Of course if you're playing by yourself, then you can play like Sez Adamson without clashing with anyone. |
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Russell Adkins
From:
Louisiana, USA
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Posted 24 Oct 2017 10:23 am
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John you are right about the two notes being pickup notes and i agree with your analysis of my little sample song and thank you for the info Im a lone musician and getting out of the country into a bit of a jazzy sound is ok with me , my aim is to please my ear and to bring something new to the song , its all in the learning process for me , I can read pretty good for 6 string guitar but the steel is another thing all together I know scales and chords are the same but in a different format for the steel so in effect its all a learning process for me , much thanks for your reply . Russ
( it might even be enteresting to find substitutes chords for the melody also ) |
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Rick Myrland
From:
New Orleans
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Posted 4 Jun 2018 4:31 pm
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I have a question about this aspect of John’s post:
| Quote: |
| ...and (2) you can invert those triads so that the melody note you need is on top...All the other notes are contained in the C triad, and for those you could use inversions of the C triad to get the melody notes you need on the top of the chord. |
I’ve always struggled with for finding the melody, now you say sometimes the melody note goes on top?! How do I know which notes (and by notes I mean strings) are the melody? I can hum melody with no problem but have always had trouble finding and playing it. But this post may be a breakthrough.
If the song goes from a C to an F, for instance, and let’s say we stick with the theory that we are going to play strings 8, 6 and 5 (root, third, fifth), then is the melody found within stings 8, 6 and 5 on the 8th fret then, when the chord changes, on strings 8, 6 and 5 on the 1st fret? Have I oversimplified this? Am I still clueless?
_________________
Mullen G2; Fender Tone Master Twin Reverb; Goodrich L-120 |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 4 Jun 2018 9:28 pm
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Hummm, I don’t play all that triad stuff, I just play the melody like the singer sings it, if swoons, I swoon.
_________________
Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 5 Jun 2018 12:24 pm
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Just as guitars are made of bits of wood, some of them quite small, so are melodies made of bits of scales. I'm from a background of single-note instruments like trombone and clarinet, where if you learn your scales, you can play any tune you need to.
A few years into the pedal steel, I am learning that it sounds most effective playing in two-part harmony and so I know that to achieve the same level I need to know all my scales in 3rds and 6ths. On the modern instrument there are so many ways of achieving the varying major and minor intervals that it's a big task but I'm beginning to achieve some mental fluency. (I no longer have to think about the mechanics of playing - it's my brain that's getting stretched every day - use it or lose it!)
I have Jeff Newman to thank for his philosophy that music theory is only worth the musical result and has no higher purpose than pointing you at some possible right notes.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 5 Jun 2018 3:17 pm
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| Rick Myrland wrote: |
I have a question about this aspect of John’s post:
| Quote: |
| ...and (2) you can invert those triads so that the melody note you need is on top...All the other notes are contained in the C triad, and for those you could use inversions of the C triad to get the melody notes you need on the top of the chord. |
I’ve always struggled with for finding the melody, now you say sometimes the melody note goes on top?! How do I know which notes (and by notes I mean strings) are the melody? I can hum melody with no problem but have always had trouble finding and playing it. But this post may be a breakthrough.
If the song goes from a C to an F, for instance, and let’s say we stick with the theory that we are going to play strings 8, 6 and 5 (root, third, fifth), then is the melody found within stings 8, 6 and 5 on the 8th fret then, when the chord changes, on strings 8, 6 and 5 on the 1st fret? Have I oversimplified this? Am I still clueless? |
There are a lot of people here more knowledgeable than me, but here's how I think of that "inversions... Melody note on top" issue.
Say you start with your 8-6-5 form of the chord. Without moving anything - bar, pedals, nothing - if you move up to 6-5-4 you get the same chord with a different note on top. Move up again, to 5-4-3, you get a third inversion, or flavor, of the chord.
So as your Melody line stays within the same chord, say your 1 chord, you can choose from those 3 positions to get different "Melody" tones. And of course, you've got 10-8-6 also, still the same chord, with yet another sound / Melody feel to it.
You can pretty much do the same trick, or variations on it anyway, with your A&B pedal chord positions too.
Hope it makes some sense.
_________________
Well up into mediocrity
I don't play what I'm supposed to.
Home made guitars |
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Rick Myrland
From:
New Orleans
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Posted 15 Dec 2020 6:18 pm
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So If all 7 notes/intervals of the scale are found on one fret, then theoretically you could play an entire song, via its melody, by selecting the right notes (strings) in the right order and the right duration? Is doing this the best way to find the melody? And once you find the melody among those 7 strings on one fret, then you find other places to play those notes, likely with a harmonic note, elsewhere on the neck?
_________________
Mullen G2; Fender Tone Master Twin Reverb; Goodrich L-120 |
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Oliver Phillips
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 16 Dec 2020 4:28 am Melody
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| This is great stuff from you all. Keep it coming. It’s appreciated |
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Oliver Phillips
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 16 Dec 2020 5:58 am Melody
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| This is great stuff from you all. Keep it coming. It’s appreciated |
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Al Evans
From:
Austin, Texas, USA
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Posted 16 Dec 2020 6:29 am
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| Rick Myrland wrote: |
| So If all 7 notes/intervals of the scale are found on one fret, then theoretically you could play an entire song, via its melody, by selecting the right notes (strings) in the right order and the right duration? |
Absolutely. Well, except for the fact you might have to "wrap around", play some notes an octave lower or higher than they are in the actual melody.
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| Is doing this the best way to find the melody? |
Probably not, since the melody goes with chords that you won't necessarily play in the same fret position. IMO, it's easier to find the melody by playing the chords I'm going to play with it.
--Al Evans
_________________
2018 MSA Legend, 2018 ZumSteel Encore, 2015 Mullen G2, G&L S-500, G&L ASAT, G&L LB-100, Godin A4 Fretless, Kinscherff High Noon |
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Chris Brooks
From:
Providence, Rhode Island
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Posted 16 Dec 2020 7:16 am
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>the last chord in the scale. You have it marked as a b5 chord, but a diminished works as well.
Its a minor seventh flat five, so as Jim says it is a kind of diminished chord. Jazz players term an Fm7b5, for instance, as an F half diminished.
If you are playing in a minor key--C minor, say--then the IIm chord is actually a IIm7b5: a D half-diminished. If you play a straight IIm7 in that minor key, it will sound corny.
Play Black Orpheus (or Blue Bossa) with 2m7b5s.
|Cm |Dm7b5 G7 |Cm . . . . ....
The D minor 7th flat 5 sounds way cooler than a D minor 7th.
How to get it on steel? My 12-string Ext E9 has a pedal that flats the 3rds, and a lever that flats the 5ths, so I can get a half diminished with these. If you don't have these changes, play the Dm7b5 at the 8th fret, B pedal down, A pedal partway down . .. and pray that it sounds in tune, ha ha.
Chris |
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James Sission
From:
Sugar Land,Texas USA
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Posted 16 Dec 2020 7:48 am
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| For what its worth, Paul Franklin teaches a whole section on Diatonic Harmony and how to apply them to musical ideas. He teaches a section called "Next Level Diatonics" that's very informative and opens a lot of doors to the concept you are referring to. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 16 Dec 2020 10:15 am
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
Just as guitars are made of bits of wood, some of them quite small, so are melodies made of bits of scales. I'm from a background of single-note instruments like trombone and clarinet, where if you learn your scales, you can play any tune you need to.
I have Jeff Newman to thank for his philosophy that music theory is only worth the musical result and has no higher purpose than pointing you at some possible right notes. |
Melodies are also made from bits of chords. Chords are made from scale tones, true enough. But knowing how to arpeggiate a chord backward, forward, and inside out goes a long way toward advancing and understanding melodic playing and improvisation, as well as harmonizing if you want to get beyond playing single notes.
I know far more music theory than I can actually put into action on the pedal steel. It is probably the main driving force in my effort to become a better player, other than the sound of the instrument itself. If that’s what Jeff Newman meant, then I agree 100%, for whatever little that’s worth saying.
A little more love for the m7b5 chord on E9...
Strings 10-9-7-6-5-3 open. Root is on string 6 and 3 (An E9 chord is G#m7b5 with a #5)
Strings 6-5-2-1, string 2 lowered a half. Root is string 6
Strings 8-7-6-5, AB and E’s lowered. Root is on string 8
Strings 10-9-8-6-5-4-3, B pedal + E raise. Root on 10 and 5
There are more, but I’m losing interest in my own “weedy†blather. |
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