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Topic: Wood |
Russell Adkins
From:
Louisiana, USA
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Posted 3 Jul 2017 12:59 pm |
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Jimmie , thanks for the headsup Ill keep that in mind for sure , I was thinking about 1/4 inch aluminum angle from end to end to mount the cross rods also , that could also be tied in with the changer plate you mentioned . Im gonna get started on it soon as i get this other stuff finished . thanks again Russ  |
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Russell Adkins
From:
Louisiana, USA
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Posted 3 Jul 2017 1:02 pm
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| John Billings wrote: |
JH,
How do you fasten the aprons to the deck?
JB |
Just glue and a few screws from underneath John Maybe i could post some pic s on here if bobby wouldnt mind me doing it .Russ |
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Terry Barnett
From:
Winnipeg Manitoba, Canada
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Posted 3 Jul 2017 1:30 pm
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These days, good hardwoods are starting to come at a premium. There's lots of maple here in Canada but Japan seems to have dibs on it. I'm waiting for a carbon fibre steel guitar that weighs almost nothing and sounds just fine...that day is coming.
Just look at all the carbon fibre violins, violas, cellos, etc. Even electric and acoustic guitars...they may never sound any better than the day you bought it, but if they initially sound good...
Anyway, that's what my crystal ball tells me  |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 3 Jul 2017 1:57 pm
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| Terry Barnett wrote: |
I'm waiting for a carbon fibre steel guitar that weighs almost nothing and sounds just fine...that day is coming.
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That day has, sadly, come and gone. MSA no longer makes the Millennium. But used ones turn up now and then in the classified ads.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Mickey Adams
From:
Bandera Texas
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Posted 3 Jul 2017 3:03 pm
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I am having 2 MSA guitars built as we speak...The first a new LEGEND D10 from Quilted Maple, and the second, another LEGEND, but in a S10 configuration is being built from timber recovered from Lake Michigan..Ill be happy to post my findings when they arrive..!!!...I find this thread very informative...
_________________
ARTIST RELATIONS: MSA GUITARS
2017 MSA LEGEND XL D10, S10, Studio Pro S12 EXE9
Mullen G2, Rittenberry S10, Infinity D10, Zumsteel 8+9
Anderson, Buscarino, Fender, Roman Guitars, Sarno Octal, Revelation Preamps, BJS BARS, Lots of Blackface Fenders! |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 3 Jul 2017 4:20 pm
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Mickey, I hope you're feeling better and recovering well from your accident.
Will the steels have wood or aluminum necks?
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 3 Jul 2017 4:55 pm Tone test
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Earlier this year, I had an opportunity to test 3 very similar pedal steels for tone. Two were all maple, and one had a spruce top. I was a skeptic going in. I doubted that changing the composition of one board would make much, if any, difference in tone. I held the opinion that 90% of tone was in the pickup. The pickups were identical in all 3 guitars.
Boy was I wrong! The spruce top guitar sounded very different from the maple ones. I now believe that the resonance of the wood used is a fundamental ingredient of the tone of the instrument. I sided with the maple as my own preference and I think most players would agree with me, but another player in the test preferred the spruce top.
Looking back, I knew that most Telecaster players can hear the the difference between alder and ash. I shouldn't have been surprised, but I was.
_________________
-š¯•“š¯•†š¯•“- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Russell Adkins
From:
Louisiana, USA
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Posted 3 Jul 2017 5:15 pm
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| Wood will always be here , problem is when in high demand greed shows its ugly face , to prove it i have a top for a guitar acoustic 3/16 thick and 8 inches wide (2 pieces) 50.00 plus shipping it might weigh a couple ounces , totally crazy and thats not a top quality AA not AAA which would be 100 dollars In high demand yes Greed Yes. Wish i owned a sawmill. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 3 Jul 2017 9:05 pm
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| Russell Adkins wrote: |
| Wood will always be here , . |
Where I live, Ponderosa Pine trees are dying by the millions. I will never take trees for granted, or the wood they provide us.
The fact is, some tonewood trees have been chopped to near extinction. That is one reason for high costs. Luckily there is still plenty of nice tall Sitka Spruce around, so acoustic tops from this wood are still affordable. |
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Steve Sycamore
From:
Sweden
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Posted 4 Jul 2017 3:26 am
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I don't think greed has anything to do with the price of good instrument wood. It's rather demand. There are not a lot of instrument manufacturers that can offer high quality, low price instruments, except possibly in places like China which don't usually have fantastic reputations. Those foreign companies have to compete with the very fine U.S. builders such as Taylor Guitars to buy suitable wood.
What is greed, I think, is for capitalists to buy tracts of fine timber in Central, North or South America or Africa and then strip it all away without replanting or re-cultivating. I would think a smart investor would understand the continuing need for wood for instruments along with the very high sales price to investment factor. Owning a sustainable timber farm would be an exceptionally fine way of making a living.
I wonder now, how would a Pao Ferro PSG sound? American Cherry or Walnut? English Oak? Some of the finest cellos and double basses are fashioned from English Oak. And those species can have a very beautiful appearance. |
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Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
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Posted 4 Jul 2017 5:25 am
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There is a rumor the MSA Studio Pros sound better more consistently because of block construction (Gluelam) as opposed to solid wood which can vary. 
Just a rumor |
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Steve Sycamore
From:
Sweden
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Posted 4 Jul 2017 7:00 am
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| I think you can break up strong fundamental resonant vibrations using ply layers, especially if you use a combination of wood species or grain orientations. So most likely it would shift the harmonic spectrum upwards and make it more complex than a solid piece of wood. But that could depend on the type of glue and how much was used. |
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Russell Adkins
From:
Louisiana, USA
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Posted 4 Jul 2017 10:38 am
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| Opinions do vary dont they,However getting back to my original post , i will build that plywood guitar and get back to ya if enterested . Russ ( just basic common everyday plywood ) |
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 4 Jul 2017 2:30 pm
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I read above about the suggestion to mount a changer through the wood with a metal plate on the underside and the same with the keyhead to speed the load.
There persists the opposite ideas on pedal steel guitar construction. The idea that the changer and keyheads should be mounted as solidly as possible, as in a stop tailpiece of a Les Paul; and the idea use in an Emmons Wraparound where how you place the cabinet in the endplates and how the individual parts work with the cabinet to keep things straight allow what most would call a flimsy means of attaching the changer to the guitar. A Wraparound is the only Emmons where the changer is not attached to the endplates or a tailpiece that is attached to the endplate, and we all know how revered the Wraparound tone is.
Incidentally, in a discussion about cabinet drop a poster mentioned that he can machine any part from aluminum. If you want stiffness, don't use parts machine from aluminum stock. Cast the piece. A cast piece will fight bending and would rather break than bend. A piece milled from stock will bend rather than break. That is why endplates milled from stock are useless on a double cabinet unless they serve no other purposes than being attached to a static cabinet and holding legs.
_________________
Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars. |
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Harry Dove
From:
Michigan, USA
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Posted 4 Jul 2017 5:17 pm
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| Mickey kind of beat me to the punch. When you're talking about differences in woods it can become a very long conversation. The list of things that can change the characteristics of wood is not only differences between species; there are many differences even in the same kind of woods. For example the wood from a tree that is grown in the forest will be very different from one that grew by itself in a field or fence row, due to the way the wind twists the fibers. Trees grown in high dry ground will have a different density than wood grown in low land. Also things like how long the wood has been cut, how it was aged or dried, and the time that has passed since it was worked will make a difference. Usually these things are considered for how the wood will look when made into furniture, etc. But I have to believe they would make a big difference in sound as well. That is not to say that all woods couldn't sound good, but they will sound different. |
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Stephen Williams
From:
from Wales now in Berkeley,Ca, USA
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Posted 5 Jul 2017 9:28 pm
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| There is ply and there is ply. Most ply veneers have holes in them which you can't see. So the sheet of ply is not really solid. You can get structural Microlams which may be much stronger re cabinet drop. |
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David Mitchell
From:
Tyler, Texas
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Posted 29 Aug 2017 10:18 pm
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| I know this is a slightly older thread but I thought I might throw in my tiny bit of knowledge. Sound or tones is nothing more than vibrations. They move around like waves on the sea. The big fat wide waves create low frequencies and the tighter denser smaller waves create high frequencies. Sustain is measured according to how long those waves vibrate.You can view those waves on an oscilloscope. You can also tune the scope to view the harmonics frequencies. From my experience building my personal musical instruments it appears the harder, more dense and extremely dry wood (seasoned) yields the fullest frequency spectrum and most sustain in spite of the type of wood used. Green freshly cut wood regardless of it's price or beautiful figuring is less responsive and deader sounding than hard dry wood. Petrified wood however starts swinging back the other direction because of the weight/mass vs vibration factor. That's why an instrument made of thin wood has more acoustical properties than one made of thicker wood. The finish on a piece of wood plays a role in tone and sustain also because the finish can make the top surface where the pickup gets it's vibrations either soft or hard. Some violin varnish never gets hard. I find that that dampens the tone severely. Cheap hard as rock finishes even add to the tone of an already cured and hard piece of wood. As for plywood vs solid wood these same principles apply. It is possible to have a better sounding instrument made from plywood vs solid wood. Age usually makes a piece of wood great for music because all the moisture is gone. Now think about this. Nearly all the instruments except EMCI AND GFI that players boast of their great tone is older instruments and there is a reason for that. It is because the wood has had time to dry out. Remember trees drink a lot of water too. So to make a long story short you can find the hardest driest laminated wood you can find and build a pretty great sounding steel guitar. You can buy some new cut maple and build a steel and let it sit around 40 years and it will sound great. You could buy an EMCI and GFI made of laminated sheets that are hard as a rock and it will sound great the day you buy it. Are you could just buy an old pre-aged Sho-Bud, Emmons, MSA, ZB or Fender and be done with it. Age makes great guitars even greater. Violins even greater. Basses even greater. Back to the subject of plywood vs solid wood the father of Bluegrass Bill Monroe insisted all his bass players play cheap Kay Englehart plywood basses because they were punchier than expensive carved solid wood basses. Remember Bluegrass relies on the bass for their kick drum. Also the older they got the louder and punchier they got. When an instrument gets so dry and cracked up it's ready to fall apart is when it sounds the best. It's seems both beautiful and great sounding is hard to come by. The worst looking instruments seem to sound the best from my experience in the studio. Every wonder why Lloyd Green toted that old Sho-Bud around everywhere he went for the last few decades? |
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Dale Rottacker
From:
Walla Walla Washington, USA
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David Mitchell
From:
Tyler, Texas
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Posted 30 Aug 2017 7:14 am
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| Muchas Gracias Dale! When it comes to playing a steel I get all my information from you. I just used your track to Nameless Shuffle last night to test my new reverb patch. You make it sound soooo good! |
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Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 31 Aug 2017 4:12 pm
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| Another aspect not to ignore is stiffness. Tests i did with a micrometer measuring deflection of a maple board vs dieboard boh same dimensions showed maple to be the better choice. Some day i'm going to rebuild a psg and try gluing carbon stiffeners the lendth of top wood. |
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David Mitchell
From:
Tyler, Texas
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Posted 31 Aug 2017 7:01 pm
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| 1" laminated butcher block maple strips like EMCI used seems to be the the most rigid. Never had it detune with those boards. Seems to hold for weeks before tuning is needed when just setting idle. |
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J R Rose
From:
Keota, Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 31 Aug 2017 9:06 pm
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My first ever pedal steel guitar I made was a S-10 made from a piece of Birch I got at my local lumber yard. I hand picked it out of the rack. Just was cabinet grade. Nice figured look to it. Did not break the bank then or will it today. Very, very hard wood. I still have the guitar and sounds very good today. Nothing fancy but has the sound. I think different woods do reverberate in a different way. Even solid wood 1/2 inch to 3/4 inch thick used in the top and aprons of steel guitars.That is picked up by the pickup and sent to your amp. But the sound is made from the string vibrating over the pickup as an electrical pulse. I know that this has been talked about here many times by much more learned people than me but just wanted to add my thoughts. I have owned a Performance Steel made by Jerry Brightman with a high grade of laminate plywood that was outstanding. Sounded as good as any with very little if any cabinet drop. I have enjoyed this thread, keep it up. J.R. Rose
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NOTHING..Sold it all. J.R. Rose |
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 1 Sep 2017 12:59 am
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| Jim Pitman wrote: |
| Another aspect not to ignore is stiffness. Tests i did with a micrometer measuring deflection of a maple board vs dieboard boh same dimensions showed maple to be the better choice. Some day i'm going to rebuild a psg and try gluing carbon stiffeners the lendth of top wood. |
If stiffness is important, then string up your asphalt driveway and see what kind on tone you get.
Early Emmons guitars are not stiff. By early, I mean Wraparounds. The changer is not attached to the endplate as they are on all other Emmons guitars. There is a flex and a synergy with every single part with that cabinet that helps the guitar stay straight and full of overtones. Even the control panel, cross shafts -- everything.
This is a Stratocaster sort of thing versus Les Paul.
Emmons guitars, well, the early ones, are not cabinets that parts are added to. Everything works together. Thst changed somewhat when they went to using jigs Rather than hand fitting every part.
Bigsbys are not stiff either.
_________________
Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars. |
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Lonnie Portwood
From:
Jacksonville, fl. USA
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Posted 1 Sep 2017 7:31 am
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A great discussion, which I have enjoyed. My good friend Ed Fulawka (recently passed) built a few plywood guitars, I suppose to lower the costs. My Brother Glenn, had one and I played it in the Fulawka room and it sounded as good as the solid maple bodied ones. His plywood was a high grade multi-ply which I'm sure contributed to the sound quality. I have a Tele-Kicker built for me by David Wallace (Niota, Tn.)in 1999. This guitar is hollow, like an a acoustic, except solid down from end of the neck to the bridge. It is made with birds-eye maple, including the neck, wood which He had owned for 33 years, which makes the wood 51 years old! I can't tell you how many people have come up to me praising the tone and sustain of this guitar! Even tho its hollow, this gtr will "spank" as well as any tele I've ever heard, yet I can crank back on the tone knob, a couple tweaks on the amp, and you'd swear it sounds like an old Gibson Super 400. I'm sure you all know that you can walk down a line of 50 freshly built guitars (any brand) and maybe find 0ne or two that immediatly stand out as to tone, resonance, and playability, even tho built by the same people in the same environment! Go figure!! Lesson learned, "no two pieces of wood are identical"
_________________
Music is probably the most "spiritual of mankinds emotions, and when practised with a pure heart, can lead one into the presence of God, who invented it. Lonnie Portwood |
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Tommy Detamore
From:
Floresville, Texas
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Posted 1 Sep 2017 8:10 am
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One thing I might add to what Chris has said is that in the case of my wraparound, the aluminum necks themselves seem to play an integral role in adding stability to the guitar. The top of my guitar visibly bows a bit under the tension of the strings (either with the necks removed, or with the neck screws totally loosened). The necks, when installed and tightened sufficiently, serve to counteract this bowing. And the end result is that the sustain and response of my guitar actually improves with the neck screws tightened, even quite snugly. I suppose this flies in the face of the widely-held notion that looser neck screws on a PP improves the sustain and response. One characteristic of wraparound necks is that they attach only at their edges, and don't have "ribs" that traverse the top of the guitar. I have wondered if that allows for tighter torque on the screws without dampening the response.
Another upside in this case is that the tighter neck screws lessen the amount of cabinet drop experienced while playing.
Merely my experiences here, maybe not even worth a full $.02 
_________________
Tommy Detamore
Quilter Labs, Goodrich Sound, Source Audio, Neunaber Audio, and Stringjoy Authorized Dealer
www.cherryridgestudio.com
www.steelguitartracksonline.com |
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