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Author Topic:  Day Copedant?
Jay Friedrich

 

From:
Dallas, TX
Post  Posted 5 Jun 2017 12:25 am    
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My limited understanding is that the Day setup has the ABC pedals reversed from their typical order, so you get CBA.

Is there a "typical" setup for the knee levers that correspond to the CBA pedals?

It seems that Mr. Day's actual copedant is still somewhat of a mystery: https://b0b.com/wp/?page_id=725

I was surprised to learn that John Hughey used a CBA setup on his pedals as well.

https://b0b.com/tunings/JohnHughey.html

It's interesting that Mr. Hughey had his raise/lower E's on his left leg, but in the opposite direction of the typical Emmons setup.

I'm curious as to how many people here have at least one steel setup with a CBA Day-style copedant?
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Jeff Mead


From:
London, England
Post  Posted 5 Jun 2017 1:53 am    
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I play Day setup and have the Es on my left leg. Because you most often use the E lower along with the B pedal and the raise with the A pedal, my E lower is left and raise is right. This is also more logical to me as I move my knee in the same direction as I would move the bar to raise or lower the note.

Day also works for me as I find it more comfortable to roll my foot to the right to rock on to the A pedal and it also means my "resting" position, over the A and B pedals is a little to the center and in a more natural position for my leg.

This also means that everything to do with strings 1 and 2 (lower 2, raise 1&2) is on the right knee.

So for me, the Day setup is great from both a logical and ergonomic position but, I guess everyone gets used to whatever setup they have and there are a huge number of Emmons players who wouldn't dream of using any other setup (and it didn't seem to hold Buddy back!). As the saying goes - your mileage may vary.
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Ian Rae


From:
Redditch, England
Post  Posted 5 Jun 2017 2:03 am     Re: Day Copedant?
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Jay Friedrich wrote:
I'm curious as to how many people here have at least one steel setup with a CBA Day-style copedant?


I think you'll find it's an all-or-nothing thing. Polls in the past have suggested that maybe a third of players use the Day setup. I use it because my first guitar came that way and couldn't be easily changed. Now I play a uni I'm glad because having the A pedal next to the B6 pedals is more useful than the C.

Everything Jeff says is good; it's worth pointing out that there is no law that says the E raises and lowers have to go on the left or the right, or indeed on the same knee.
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Mike Wilkerson


From:
Luther Oklahoma
Post  Posted 5 Jun 2017 7:00 pm    
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Jimmy set my very first steel guitar to his set up... The advantage for me is I'm short in the legs and having the CBA setup makes rocking on and off the pedals a lot easier for me.... With all this said it's all about muscle memory and what your most comfortable playing... I love having my 4&8 string lower on my LKL for the simple sliding from the pedals down position down 2 frets and engaging that knee lever and keeping the B pedal engaged gives a nice pretty 7th change.... Slim
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Jim Goins

 

From:
Michigan, USA
Post  Posted 6 Jun 2017 3:35 am     Day Componet
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Jeff Newman also used the Day setup, My first D10 steel had the Day setup ( Walters Steel) Made by, Bobby Walters in Monroe Michigan, about 1971, it was made like the old SHO~BUB finger tip I switched to the Emmons setup in 1974, I bought a new MSA Classic with the Emmons setup. Oh Well Jim Goins.
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Darvin Willhoite


From:
Roxton, Tx. USA
Post  Posted 6 Jun 2017 3:54 am    
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I believe Tommy White and Johnny Cox also use the Day floor pedal setup, and Hal Rugg did if I remember right.

I don't think there ever was a "standard" knee lever setup that goes with the Day floor pedals. I lower my Es with my RKR and I raise them with my LKR.
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Will Cowell

 

From:
Cambridgeshire, UK
Post  Posted 6 Jun 2017 6:02 am    
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I use the Day setup too, for all the reasons set out very ably above. I tried the Emmons setup, but changed after about 6 months, it gave my left ankle a better time of it.

I have the knee levers as Darvin Willhoite - raise E's on LKR, lower on RKR, the latter as Jeff Newman recommended for use with the B6 - I have a U12. It gives me the ability to get a really seamless transition from E's lower to E's raise without the "step" in the middle that you can get with them on the same knee.

I'm so much happier with the day setup, but YMMV.
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Richard Sinkler


From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
Post  Posted 6 Jun 2017 8:48 am    
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I started on an Emmons setup, and played it for maybe 6 months to a year. I was having 3 left knee levers installed on my ZB, and the tech played Day style. He let me play his for a bit and I was hooked. I had him convert it to Day. That was around 1972. I have the E levers on my left knee. Although, if an emmons setup guitar has the E levers on the left knee, I can (somewhat) play it.
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Henry Matthews


From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
Post  Posted 6 Jun 2017 10:51 am    
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No mystery with Day set up to me. I know this has been discussed 100's of time here on the forum and everywhere but still say for a beginner, it's easier to learn cause everything just makes more sense. For a seasoned player, don't think there is any difference so if you learned on Emmons set up or Day setup, it's 6 to one and half dozen to other.

By the way, a lot of big name players play or played Day besides John. Weldon Myric, Tommy White, Hal Rugg and others I can't recall.
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D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
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Ian Rae


From:
Redditch, England
Post  Posted 6 Jun 2017 10:59 am    
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Jim Goins wrote:
Jeff Newman also used the Day setup

Maybe, but not all the time. If you follow the link on this site to his copedents, the E9 and the uni are both Emmons.

and Will Cowell wrote:
I have the knee levers as Darvin Willhoite - raise E's on LKR, lower on RKR, the latter as Jeff Newman recommended for use with the B6 - I have a U12. It gives me the ability to get a really seamless transition from E's lower to E's raise without the "step" in the middle that you can get with them on the same knee.

I do the same. I like to be able to drop the 3rd a whole tone in the A/F position. When I've mentioned this before, several people have chimed in to the effect that they can do it fine on the same knee. Their levers must be very tight together - maybe their ankles are more flexible than mine Smile
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Post  Posted 6 Jun 2017 11:12 am    
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While it may be true that Jimmy Day, like Lloyd Green, didn't lower his 4th string, most players with CBA pedals do. I think that most also raise both E's on LKR and lower them on LKL (direct opposite of Emmons). Jimmy didn't, but that doesn't stop people from calling their CBA arrangement a "Day setup". No wonder people are confused.

Jimmy Day: <center>

</center>
Compare to Lloyd Green:
Tab:
# note  LKL  Ped1  Ped2  Ped3  LKR     RKL   RKR 
1  F# __+G________________________________________
2  D# ________________________________-D/C#_______
3  G# _____________+A_____________________________
4  E  ___________________+F#____+F________________
5  B  _______+C#_________+C#______________________
6  G# _____________+A_____________________________
7  F# ____________________________________________
8  E  __________________________+F___________-D#__
9  D  ____________________________________________
10 B  _______+C#__________________________________

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Last edited by b0b on 6 Jun 2017 11:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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Dick Hitchcock


From:
Wayne, Nebraska
Post  Posted 6 Jun 2017 11:12 am    
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I'm a Day setup also, mainly because the Sho-Bud I bought in 1969 was set up that way....Too old to change now, so I had Fred set mine up like this. RKL drop E's....LKR raise E's.
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Jerry Overstreet


From:
Louisville Ky
Post  Posted 6 Jun 2017 12:32 pm    
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Ian Rae wrote:
Jim Goins wrote:
Jeff Newman also used the Day setup

Maybe, but not all the time. If you follow the link on this site to his copedents, the E9 and the uni are both Emmons.


If you're referring to the tuning charts on Jeff's site, those are not his personal pedal setups. I believe he listed the Emmons copedent as he thought that was the most popular. He didn't dwell on Emmons/Day setups in class. He said it didn't matter and he was right.

His labeling described what action a pedal/lever did, not where it was located.

Unless you have some physical impairment, there is just no logical reason to choose one over the other. You have to use all the pedals if you're any kind of player.

I met him in '79 and saw his complement of single 10's and Uni 12 pedal steels at his school in Nashville. All of them were set up Day, he told everybody that he played Day and from then forward, I've watched him play dozens of times and I've never seen him play anything but Day setup on his own guitars, although he has been known to sit in on someone else's guitar with another setup.

Also all his instructional videos I have show him playing Day.

There are people here that have known him lots longer than me, so I defer to them as to when he began playing the Day setup.

I always thought Emmons/Day setup referred to the pedals anyway and not necessarily the KL's but what do I know.
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Henry Matthews


From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
Post  Posted 6 Jun 2017 1:14 pm    
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Jerry Overstreet wrote:
[quote="Ian Rae
I always thought Emmons/Day setup referred to the pedals anyway and not necessarily the KL's but what do I know.


I think you are correct, it's the pedal arrangement that determines Day or Emmons. The knees just sorta follow along by swapping sides (E raises and lowers) from Day to Emmons, that is if your E raises and E lowers are on left knee. However, J.D. plays a half Day and half Emmons set up, knees one way and pedals other, I heard, I may be wrong.
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Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
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Ian Rae


From:
Redditch, England
Post  Posted 6 Jun 2017 2:30 pm    
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Jerry, thanks for clearing that up.
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Jim Goins

 

From:
Michigan, USA
Post  Posted 6 Jun 2017 3:58 pm     Day Componet
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The last video I got from Jeff he was playing the Day set up, Band stand back up 1 and 2, video 1 he was using a Zum Steel, 2 he was using a Franklin. I now use the old Emmons set up LkL raises the Es RKL lowers the Es, that's the way my D10 MSA 1974 was set up from the factory, pedals 123,ABC on E9 Neck. I have a Emmons SD10 same set up and a SHO~BUD LDG, same set up. Jim Goins.
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Jay Friedrich

 

From:
Dallas, TX
Post  Posted 6 Jun 2017 9:05 pm    
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Thank you all for sharing your wisdom, insight, and experience.

Despite having dabbled with PSG for years, I am barely a beginner.

Initially I just settled with how my MSA S10 came set up. It's an Emmons ABC with 3 & 4, but the raise/lower the E's are both on the right knee (RKL=Lower/RKR=Raise).

I never chose or thought about it much, I just went with how it was.

As I'm getting older (52 now), I'm getting some arthritis in the little toe on my left foot, and I'm thinking it would be more comfortable for me to roll left to right from the B onto the A pedal.

Lately, rolling onto the little toe to tag the A pedal is becoming uncomfortable. I know I'll never be anything more than a hobby PSG'er, but if nothing else, I'd like it to be comfortable.

I am also interested in U12/E9/B6, so Darvin and Will's approach of putting the lower E's on RKR and raise E's on LKR makes sense too.

Ideally I'd like to try a Day copedant first, but my old MSA is in the shop right now waiting on a new LK^... I had plans to adjust the copedant anyway, and there's no time like the present!

Thanks again for all the insight and suggestions.

Jay
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Jeff Mead


From:
London, England
Post  Posted 6 Jun 2017 11:13 pm    
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Before jumping into the deep end, there's a really easy way to see of the Day setup is for you.

On your C pedal, back out the E -> F# raise so it doesn't do anything. You now have an A B A arrangement.

You can play stuff using the A and B pedals the Emmons way and the Day way and see which you prefer.
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Post  Posted 7 Jun 2017 7:55 am    
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The fix for foot comfort might be as simple as adjusting pedal height.
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Jay Friedrich

 

From:
Dallas, TX
Post  Posted 7 Jun 2017 2:34 pm    
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b0b wrote:
The fix for foot comfort might be as simple as adjusting pedal height.


Jeff Mead wrote:
Before jumping into the deep end, there's a really easy way to see of the Day setup is for you.

On your C pedal, back out the E -> F# raise so it doesn't do anything. You now have an A B A arrangement.

You can play stuff using the A and B pedals the Emmons way and the Day way and see which you prefer.


I'll be trying both of these things... The one thing I know I won't like about the Day set up is that it's different from the majority of pedal steels already out there.

Thanks again for all the insight! Much obliged!
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Tony Glassman


From:
The Great Northwest
Post  Posted 7 Jun 2017 5:07 pm    
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I remember reading somewhere that the potential for cabinet drop is greater with the Day set-up as the combined pressure from pressing pedals A&B is closer to the middle of the body. I can't verify that, having never played a Day set-up for any length of time.
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Henry Matthews


From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
Post  Posted 7 Jun 2017 5:53 pm    
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Tony Glassman wrote:
I remember reading somewhere that the potential for cabinet drop is greater with the Day set-up as the combined pressure from pressing pedals A&B is closer to the middle of the body. I can't verify that, having never played a Day set-up for any length of time.


True but not enough to notice, I don't even notice it anyway. Maybe I'm tone deaf, lol
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Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
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Will Cowell

 

From:
Cambridgeshire, UK
Post  Posted 8 Jun 2017 4:02 am    
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I always like it when somebody backs up an assertion with facts, because there is a good reason for the assertion that we can all see. With that in mind, I'd have to take issue with Tony Glassman.

Yes, pressing the A pedal together with the B pedal raises two strings for the A, and two for the B. But swap the pedal arrangement around, so that C is nearer the middle (as opposed to Day) and again you have two raises from C - on 4 and 5 - plus two on B.

So on that basis, there seems no good reason to say "there is greater potential for cabinet drop" with the Day pedal setup (CBA).

An earlier poster said "there is no logical reason" for Day. Actually, I think there is. If you raise the E's you are going up the neck - or you would if you did it with the bar. So raising the E's intuitively seems like a rightward motion. To raise the E's by moving the knee and the foot to the left - the downward motion - is counter-intuitive. I chose Day because of that, and the greater ease of movement dictated by my left ankle for rocking on and off the A while holding the B down. Physiologically, there is every good reason for Day. Logically, there is a sound reason also.

But you do what you feel comfortable with, at the end of the day.
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Sonny Jenkins


From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
Post  Posted 8 Jun 2017 6:08 am    
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Well stated Mr. Cowell!!
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Tony Glassman


From:
The Great Northwest
Post  Posted 8 Jun 2017 6:11 am    
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Will Cowell wrote:
I always like it when somebody backs up an assertion with facts, because there is a good reason for the assertion that we can all see. With that in mind, I'd have to take issue with Tony Glassman.

Yes, pressing the A pedal together with the B pedal raises two strings for the A, and two for the B. But swap the pedal arrangement around, so that C is nearer the middle (as opposed to Day) and again you have two raises from C - on 4 and 5 - plus two on B.

So on that basis, there seems no good reason to say "there is greater potential for cabinet drop" with the Day pedal setup (CBA).

An earlier poster said "there is no logical reason" for Day. Actually, I think there is. If you raise the E's you are going up the neck - or you would if you did it with the bar. So raising the E's intuitively seems like a rightward motion. To raise the E's by moving the knee and the foot to the left - the downward motion - is counter-intuitive. I chose Day because of that, and the greater ease of movement dictated by my left ankle for rocking on and off the A while holding the B down. Physiologically, there is every good reason for Day. Logically, there is a sound reason also.

But you do what you feel comfortable with, at the end of the day.


"I always like it when someone" comments on your post without thoroughly reading it....I never asserted anything about the Day system and cabinet drop, I just stated a recollection about the topic which I declined to verify.

In reply, Will.....most steel players I know spend the vast majority of their time pressing pedals A&B as compared to pedals C&B. Simple observation would show you that a long board supported at both ends will flex more when weight is added toward the middle as it would if the load was applied near either support. So, the notion of increased cabinet deflection potential with the Day set-up does have its root in science
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