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Topic: Copedent by the numbers |
Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 26 Feb 2018 3:00 pm |
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I sustained a serious brain injury in Vietnam, and as a result have certain cognitive peculiarities. Not quite all the circuits are there or work. There's a hole about the size of half a golf ball.
I could not absorb much information from a standard copedent chart, so I translated mine into a language I can understand.
I don't know if these might be useful to a normal person.
E9 neck
C6 (in my case A6) neck
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Tim Russell
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 26 Feb 2018 3:02 pm
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It kinda makes sense to me - I understand enough to see that you play a "Day" setup! 
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Sierra Crown D-10 |
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Rick Abbott
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 26 Feb 2018 3:56 pm
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Just so I am understanding the nomenclature, the E-lowers are doing a major 7th, or you would have written 7 dom, right?
I think it makes sense.
_________________
RICK ABBOTT
Sho~Bud D-10 Professional #7962
Remington T-8, Wakarusa 5e3 clone
1953 Stromberg-Carlson AU-35 |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 26 Feb 2018 3:57 pm
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In pedal steel playing numbers are a perfectly respectable way of indicating pitches and they are independent of key (cf. Nashville number system).
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 26 Feb 2018 4:59 pm
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As long as you keep in mind that those numbers only apply to the home position for each, they will make sense. For example, in the key of G at the 3rd fret, your scale numbers are correct. But if you're playing in G at the 8th or 10th fret, they're all wrong. At the 8th fret, scale note 1 is on strings 5 and 10. At the 10th fret, scale note 1 is on strings 3 and 6 with the 2nd pedal down.
I think in numbers like you do. To make it work, you have to memorize the numbers in at least 3 positions (I, IV and V).
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Tom Mooney
From:
Arlington, TN, USA
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Posted 26 Feb 2018 6:47 pm
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| Jeff, I'd like to thank you for your service and sacrifice. |
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Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 27 Feb 2018 6:30 am
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| Rick Abbott wrote: |
Just so I am understanding the nomenclature, the E-lowers are doing a major 7th, or you would have written 7 dom, right?
I think it makes sense. |
I would have written b7, not dom.
This is strictly numbers, no names. Direction and number.
_________________
Well up into mediocrity
I don't play what I'm supposed to.
Home made guitars |
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Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 27 Feb 2018 6:36 am
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| b0b wrote: |
As long as you keep in mind that those numbers only apply to the home position for each, they will make sense. For example, in the key of G at the 3rd fret, your scale numbers are correct. But if you're playing in G at the 8th or 10th fret, they're all wrong. At the 8th fret, scale note 1 is on strings 5 and 10. At the 10th fret, scale note 1 is on strings 3 and 6 with the 2nd pedal down.
I think in numbers like you do. To make it work, you have to memorize the numbers in at least 3 positions (I, IV and V). |
This is correct.
I actually wish I could figure out a way to chart that information, but I haven't so far, so in your examples I have to do a double shuffle where I count my G on the 8 fret as an X number (haven't figured it for this writing) and then work from there... Perhaps I could do one that charts direction + interval in half steps, but I'm not sure I could use it as fluidly.
It would be a useful exercise, though, and would further clarify my still limited understanding. I may do that also.
_________________
Well up into mediocrity
I don't play what I'm supposed to.
Home made guitars |
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Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 27 Feb 2018 8:03 am
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BTW here's how I use that chart...
_________________
Well up into mediocrity
I don't play what I'm supposed to.
Home made guitars |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 27 Feb 2018 8:24 am
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You could make additional number charts for the keys of A and B on the open strings. The act of making those charts would familiarize you with the "pedals down" and "E lever" positions in every key.
PS. Cool harp!
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 27 Feb 2018 9:15 am
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I’m not sure what you mean by 3(11) in your A6 chart. Shouldn’t the 11 be a 10?
Oh yeah, cool harp, and cool dulcimer, and cool cigar box geeters! |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 27 Feb 2018 10:36 am
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If/when you change your A6 to C6, you'll have to re-rod it. The standard C6th has the root tone C(1) on the 3rd string, not the 4th. Your pedals aren't too far from standard but they're 1 string lower than where they should be for standard C6th.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 27 Feb 2018 11:27 am
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
I’m not sure what you mean by 3(11) in your A6 chart. Shouldn’t the 11 be a 10?
Oh yeah, cool harp, and cool dulcimer, and cool cigar box geeters! |
The 3(11) is the 3rd of the scale. The 11 is usually an octave above the 3rd and becomes part of an 11th chord.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 27 Feb 2018 12:36 pm
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| The 3rd above the octave is the 10th, not the 11th. |
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Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 27 Feb 2018 1:27 pm
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| Brint Hannay wrote: |
| The 3rd above the octave is the 10th, not the 11th. |
What that is, technically, is a "mistake."
I used 3rd, 4th etc for my "high" numbers because I haven't learned the high numbers yet. And I put 11th instead of 10th because...
I haven't learned my high numbers yet. 
- credit also to Fred Treece.
| bOb wrote: |
You could make additional number charts for the keys of A and B on the open strings. The act of making those charts would familiarize you with the "pedals down" and "E lever" positions in every key.
PS. Cool harp! |
That's a great suggestion. That will definitely be next.
I'm also planning to do one that indicates change by half-step, which won't blow up on me with the other chord forms, but I think this suggestion comes first.
A friend of mine builds harps, and custom designed this one for me, big enough to give me 33 strings and still small enough that I can carry it to gigs. (Mostly nursing homes / hospice centers.)
_________________
Well up into mediocrity
I don't play what I'm supposed to.
Home made guitars |
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Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 27 Feb 2018 1:45 pm
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| b0b wrote: |
| If/when you change your A6 to C6, you'll have to re-rod it. The standard C6th has the root tone C(1) on the 3rd string, not the 4th. Your pedals aren't too far from standard but they're 1 string lower than where they should be for standard C6th. |
I'm probably going to leave the A6 as A6. I'm learning it, and I always wished I could get below C on my root strings on my lap. I mostly do melody lines, and it's handy to be able to run below the root.
That said, the pedals on the A6 neck don't make any sense whatsoever to me. I played C6 no pedal, so I can play every song I know on the A6 already, which cuts into the incentive to learn. And I'm so fascinated with E9 that I'm spending almost all my practice time on that neck, only working the A6 enough to relearn my fret / chord relationships so I can look halfway competent at the gig Sunday.
Halfway competent being my norm anyway. 
_________________
Well up into mediocrity
I don't play what I'm supposed to.
Home made guitars |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 27 Feb 2018 2:25 pm
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| Brint Hannay wrote: |
| The 3rd above the octave is the 10th, not the 11th. |
Oops! That is correct. Didn't take the time to think about it.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 27 Feb 2018 6:28 pm obscure point of order
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Normally, the 1, 3, 5 and 7 in the high octave are still called 1, 3, 5 and 7. The scale notes 2, 4, and 6 are called 9, 11, and 13 when they're in the high octave. This gives us chord names like A7#9 instead of A7b10. The numbers 8, 10, 12, and 14 are not used in chord names.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 27 Feb 2018 7:47 pm
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Being that I don't understand it at all, I'll be "sacrificial lamb" in case anyone else is baffled but doesn't want to post.
Caveat - I don't play E9 or C6 - but I wouldn't think that would matter. - that "changes" would be up or down (duh!). And I'm math phobic (and an ear player), so maybe at a double disadvantage.
The numbers showing scale relationship within the tuning might be useful Not sure how.
But how can you have a change of "up 9"? I don't see how it could be up "9" (half steps? Whole steps" scale steps"?) from anything but the open string, and while that may be interesting it's going to necessitate numerical juggling of 2 or 3 other numbers if more than one string is played - AND those numbers changing if a pedal/lever is engaged. AND (i guess) knowing what the "up or down" is between each of those 2 or 3 notes if some understanding of the same information is needed.
Or if it's supposed to mean "up to a "9th" it won't be in the context of anything but an open chord with no other string changes engaged.
I must be missing the entire point. I do copedent charts but they have what's actually happening - "+1/2" - as in up a half step and so on, which means the same thing in every inversion of every combination of strings.
I looked at those two charts for quite a while - it's not a matter of being able to use them - I'm not close to understanding them, or (no disrespect meant) how usual "+1, -1/2" charts could be *more* complicated.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 28 Feb 2018 8:39 am
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| Jim Sliff wrote: |
Being that I don't understand it at all, I'll be "sacrificial lamb" in case anyone else is baffled but doesn't want to post.
Caveat - I don't play E9 or C6 - but I wouldn't think that would matter. - that "changes" would be up or down (duh!). And I'm math phobic (and an ear player), so maybe at a double disadvantage.
The numbers showing scale relationship within the tuning might be useful Not sure how.
But how can you have a change of "up 9"? I don't see how it could be up "9" (half steps? Whole steps" scale steps"?) from anything but the open string, and while that may be interesting it's going to necessitate numerical juggling of 2 or 3 other numbers if more than one string is played - AND those numbers changing if a pedal/lever is engaged. AND (i guess) knowing what the "up or down" is between each of those 2 or 3 notes if some understanding of the same information is needed.
Or if it's supposed to mean "up to a "9th" it won't be in the context of anything but an open chord with no other string changes engaged.
I must be missing the entire point. I do copedent charts but they have what's actually happening - "+1/2" - as in up a half step and so on, which means the same thing in every inversion of every combination of strings.
I looked at those two charts for quite a while - it's not a matter of being able to use them - I'm not close to understanding them, or (no disrespect meant) how usual "+1, -1/2" charts could be *more* complicated. |
The numbers mean "scale degree" based on whatever your root at that fret is.
Up plus a number doesn't mean up by so many steps, it means up to that scale degree. So if you're on the G fret (pedals open) and press the A pedal the 5th of G goes up to the 6th of G.
Staying in G here, say I'm playing a C chord. I don't often think "C,E,G", I think "4,6,8" so even though it's a <whatever> chord my brain is still doing scale degree based on the key.
I understand that I don't have to play in what I'm referring to as the "root" key at a given fret. I might be at the G fret but still play in C, using C, F, and G chords from that fret,and my chart totally fails to express that, but I will have to sort that out as I develop a better understanding of the instrument. I started with it a week ago today.
If you move your bar up two frets and step on that pedal the 5th of A goes up to the 6th of A. So forth.
My copedent chart that came with my guitar didn't say "+ ½" it said + (note name). But since (note name) only applied at fret 0, I couldn't make the translation to happened at, say, fret 3.
If I were going to do one that said + ½, though, I wouldn't use fractions, I would do it based on integer count of half steps, i.e. "+ ½" would become "+ 1", plus 1½ would become plus 3, etc.
My brain damage is difficult to explain, but I have a hard time with many conventional ways of expressing things. I almost never think in terms of note names. I'm not playing a C chord in G, I'm playing a 4 chord. Or a 2 minor, for an Am in G. It's how my broken brain works.
I get fake sheets from the band and I have to shuffle all this silently to be able to play along.
If you can't understand it might be because your brain isn't broken. 
_________________
Well up into mediocrity
I don't play what I'm supposed to.
Home made guitars |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 28 Feb 2018 9:22 am
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| Quote: |
| My brain damage is difficult to explain, but I have a hard time with many conventional ways of expressing things. I almost never think in terms of note names. I'm not playing a C chord in G, I'm playing a 4 chord. Or a 2 minor, for an Am in G. It's how my broken brain works. |
That's not brain damage - that's how most steel players think! Seriously. I was playing steel for about a decade before I started learning the actual names of the chords I was playing. Most of us play by positions and numbers. All we know is what key we're in, and off we go.
I've heard that in Nashville studio sessions the charts are all in numbers. They even call it the "Nashville Number System". Playing by numbers is considered a skill, not a handicap!
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 28 Feb 2018 10:23 am
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Most of the charts for the group I’m playing in are note name charts. The tunes involve multiple tonal center changes and a lot of altered doms and minors, so note names actually make more sense. I could go through them all and change them to numbers, but the way my brain works is “you are a lazy bum and will never take the time to do itâ€.
The number system always has made more sense for simpler tunes that can be called off at jam sessions or throw together gigs, but for now it is important for me to learn the names up and down the neck and at multiple locations.. |
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Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 28 Feb 2018 2:52 pm
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
Most of the charts for the group I’m playing in are note name charts. The tunes involve multiple tonal center changes and a lot of altered doms and minors, so note names actually make more sense. I could go through them all and change them to numbers, but the way my brain works is “you are a lazy bum and will never take the time to do itâ€.
The number system always has made more sense for simpler tunes that can be called off at jam sessions or throw together gigs, but for now it is important for me to learn the names up and down the neck and at multiple locations.. |
You play much more complex music than I do. I am pretty much a hacker playing old blues and rock and roll and some basic 3 and 4 chord country. When I improvise, home alone, I play more harmonically complex music, but I don't have the theory to support that, I just learn where to find particular tones and intervals on my neck and pick them as needed. But before now that was on C6 lap steel.
So now what I'm trying to do is learn where to find the tones and intervals I want on the PSG neck, particularly the E9 neck. That knowledge will be built on learning these interval and scale degree basics I'm working on now, followed by just playing and playing until they take root in my soul somewhere.
Most of you guys are, I believe, appreciably better and more knowledgeable musicians than I am, but I'd rather play what I can play than not play at all.
If I can swing my current attempt to go back to college (at 70) I plan to study more theory as my open elective requirements.
_________________
Well up into mediocrity
I don't play what I'm supposed to.
Home made guitars |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 28 Feb 2018 10:50 pm
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Go get ‘em, Jerry. I admire people who continue to educate and better themselves their whole life through.
FYI, the music I play may be more complex than what you play, but I don’t even play my steel in that group yet because I would suck terribly on it. For now I’m on guitar and just woodshedding the E9. The other guys have been warned that it is on the way though  |
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