3rd string on E9th all-pull won't tune

Ryan Zimmerman · From: Pennsylvania, USA

I have an all-pull MSA Classic S-10 E9th. I do all my own repair work, but this one has me stumped.
The steel was working fine until about a month ago when I noticed the 3rd string wasn't raising all the way to A when I press the B pedal. Tuning to the correct pitch at the endplate doesn't allow the string to return to G#. In short, there isn't enough travel. If I back off the tuning rod until it just clears the changer, the open note returns to G#, but the raise comes up about 20 cents flat.

If this were the only change on the B pedal, I would make the pedal travel longer. However, the 6th string (an octave lower) also has this change and has stayed in perfect tune without any adjustments (other than the normal tweaks because of temperature). If I lengthen the pedal travel, the 6th string raise would need to be backed off at the endplate. This would make the 3rd string raise as soon as I touch the pedal; but the 6th string would not begin to raise until the pedal was a good ways down, so lengthening the pedal travel is hardly an option.

I haven't changed string gauges.
I replaced the 3rd string in case it was old but it didn't make any difference.

Any ideas?

mtulbert · From: Plano, Texas 75023

Check and see if your lowering finger on the 3rd string is engaging a little when you hit the B pedal. May just need an adjustment on the springs.

Good luck

MT
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Ryan Zimmerman · From: Pennsylvania, USA

I should have mentioned:
The lowering finger stays firmly on its stop when I press the B pedal.

David Martin · From: Kingsport, TN 37660 USA

Have you checked to see if the 3rd string bell crank is loose on the cross shaft? I believe the early MSAs had round cross shafts.
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Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Move the third string pull farther out on the bellcrank
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Ryan Zimmerman · From: Pennsylvania, USA

David: The rod from the bell crank to the changer is a bit long, so I can't get an allen wrench into the set screw that tightens the bell crank on the cross-rod to see if it's tight. However, I pushed on the bell crank as hard as I could and it didn't move so I'm guessing it's tight! Smile

Lane: You're right in theory. However, the pedals have "stubby" bell cranks with only 2 positions. The rod for the 3rd string's change is already on the bottom hole of the stubby bell crank.
Also, this pull has been working at this position since the late 80's, so something else must be the root of the problem.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Try a new nylon nut?
If it had been fine and now it's not, I'd try a fresh BRAND of string.
Also check for string ball.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Ryan Zimmerman · From: Pennsylvania, USA

Lane: No string ball in the changer.
Have been using the same brand of strings as far back as I can remember. What brand do you recommend?
By "nylon nut" I assume you mean those for tuning at the endplate. I swapped the 3rd string raise nut with the one for the 5th string A pedal raise. I didn't see any difference, so I swapped them back.

richard burton · From: Britain

Are you playing on carpet?
The pedal might not be moving it's full travel if carpet is stopping it.

Ryan Zimmerman · From: Pennsylvania, USA

I'm playing on carpet, but there's plenty of room under the pedal.
I wish the real fix was that simple!

Brett Lanier · From: Madison, TN

I would start by getting the pulls properly in tune at the changer by engaging them with your fingers, not the pedal. Then move on from there. Also important to make sure both 3rd and 6th strings are coming back to the stops when the pedal is not engaged. That's what you call "overtuning", but I'd imagine you're well acquainted with that concept if you've been doing your own setups.

Ryan Zimmerman · From: Pennsylvania, USA

Brett: They're not overtuned (been there, done that on another string once).

I'm not sure if I understand what you mean by

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

brett is probably confusing the fact. emmons p/p changers can be set to the action of each change without the rods being attached even.
but not necessarily so with an all pull changer.

Wayne Quinn · From: Cape Breton.NovaScotia

Ryan. tune your G sharp open. then press your pedal and pull your 3rd to A. if its pulls up flat tune it at the end plate until it tunes up to pitch with pedal down when you release your pedal if it comes back sharp try with your finger and pull the finger at the end plate back until it comes to proper pitch. if that works then I would say there is something holding it from coming back all the way to right pitch . my guess would be weak return spring on that string. your thinking the prob is in the raise when actually it can be in the lower or return.,try adjusting that return spring about 1 full turn on the tension screw if you have that type hope this helps. Smile

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Ryan Zimmerman · From: Pennsylvania, USA

Wayne: I followed your instructions and the open came back sharp. I couldn't pull the finger back because the pull rod was holding it slightly forward. With pedals up, I loosened the raise at the endplate and the string returned to pitch. Of course, the raise comes up flat again... Back to square one.

Wayne Quinn · From: Cape Breton.NovaScotia

your saying you couldn't pull it back to proper pitch with your finger.or a small screw driver at the end plate can you adjust your return springs with a screw driver on your guitar
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Ryan Zimmerman · From: Pennsylvania, USA

No Wayne, the return springs on my steel are not adjustable.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Check that you don't have something on the pedal pull or the stop screw.
If you didn't make a change, SOMETHING changed.
Wait. Is the bellcrank still standing nearly straight up?
On MSA, with the round shafts, if the bellcrank is laid over, the rod will be moving more up-and-down than in-and-out.
If it's laying over, you can either replace the bellcrank, or take it off, and sand a SMALL amount from the mating surfaces, so it clamps tighter when you screw it down.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Ryan Zimmerman · From: Pennsylvania, USA

Lane: Both bell cranks are close to vertical. How nearly is "nearly vertical"? The 3rd string bell crank might lean away from the changer a slight bit, but it's just a slight bit (not more than 2mm difference).

Nothing on the stop screw; not sure what you mean by something on the pedal pull.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

The pedal pull is the thing that's not quite a bellcrank, that the pedal rod attaches to. The bit that hits the stop screw.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Ryan Zimmerman · From: Pennsylvania, USA

I checked, nothing on the pedal pull.
The issue could hardly lie there as that would also affect the 6th string.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Is the rod going through the upper or lower hole in the changer?
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

Don Christy · Posted 26 Aug 2015 1:13 pm

I'm glad you found the problem.

Smile

Ryan Zimmerman · From: Pennsylvania, USA

Lane: It's in the lower hole.

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