What does "locked to a grid" mean?

Rick Myrland · From: New Orleans

I was reading an article about a Nashville producer who commented (in relation to a recording session) "...the drums were locked to a grid." What does this mean?
_________________
Mullen G2; Fender Tone Master Twin Reverb; Goodrich L-120

Les Cargill · From: Oklahoma City, Ok, USA

This is also known as "quantization". It's a technique for removing timing inaccuracy. It's "groove remover".

Let's say you're at 120 beats per minute ( two beats per second ) and you're using an eighth-note grid.

If time 0 is 0.0 seconds, notes will only be played on 0.25 second marks - 0.0,0.25,0.50,0.75,1.00,1.25....

The drums then will be exactly on top of the beat (or "and" of the beat - eighth notes) for every drum hit. If there's snare note a skosh late, the software will move the snare note to where it's not late any more.

You can quantize to quarter notes, eighth notes, triplets, any ... resolution ( depending on what's supported by the software)

The drums in his case are either MIDI or Melodyne is in use. Melodyne lets you chop up a part and reassemble it this way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQLJoB8pamE

Rick Myrland · From: New Orleans

Wow--thanks for the great response. So is this similar to using a "click track" on stage? I don't recall ever playing with a drummer who used one but I've heard them discussed.
_________________
Mullen G2; Fender Tone Master Twin Reverb; Goodrich L-120

Les Cargill · From: Oklahoma City, Ok, USA

It's a little like that, but different.

A click track is just something the drummer follows. With a click track, you can still play "off the grid". It's just an electronic metronome.

This is done with software on a computer after the part has been played. Watch that Melodyne video again - first time I saw Melodyne I like to fell out of my chair. I knew you could quantize with MIDI but this does it with just plain audio.

I don't think JJ Cale done it that way ( but he did use drum machines ) and I'd put JJ Cale's time up against about anybody's.

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

When Mick told Keith Richards they needed to play to a click track and record in digital, he was highly scornful; when Mick told Keith it meant they could make millions selling the digitized bits to advertisers, TV & movies, click was on. Once you've got the grid-lock, you just need a laptop, no more band! That's why modern music is all so much better than those sloppy old tracks.

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

I knew a drummer who was brought in for disco tracks for the Beegees, but without the Beegees.
He laid down the tracks and after he left engineers mechanically quantized the tracks for further accuracy.

That was before a grid; a newer, better way was needed, a machine maybe, to straighten out that disco groove....

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

This is so depressing. When I was working in studios, the drummers who could play dead in time for hours on end got the session work.

I am sorry that this qualification has been removed. I am fed up with even-tempered singers emerging from so-called pitch-correctors, and now this.

(Ian Rae is 63. And grumpy.)
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Using a grid to record with in pro tools does not mean it will be quantized. In NYC drummers would ask if they are throwing up a grid later or not. Quite a few studio drummers had no need for a click. A grid is a way of organizing a session. It makes it possible to edit in a quantized sorta way but does not make it mandatory.

a grid is usually used as a mapping device. It is not like the Antares or melodyne which actually are evil devil boxes whose only function is to crush souls and destroy all that Americans hold dear.
_________________
Bob

Bill C. Buntin · Posted 7 Jan 2015 7:42 am **Working with click track**

With the click track, the drummer has to be perfect. It is typical for a lot of parts to be sequenced (as in studio recorded parts that are carried live on the road with the band) or midi tracks the keyboard player wants to throw in with the live show and usually some of both, but the ones I've worked with, I feel sorry for the drummer. Cause he's got this constant metronome click in his ear. Once it starts he has to lock on to the click track and drive the band perfectly...no mistakes or else the sequenced parts will play at the wrong time.

If that happens the sound man has to cut the sequence and the live musicians finish the tune. Then at the break the entire band gets chewed on by the artist and manager because the band wasn't locked in to the sequence.

The first few times I worked shows of this type I was amazed at how flawless the drummer was. Actually works really well even though I don't particularly like playing live with a sequencer.

Fiddle, steel, bass, drums good enough for what I enjoy anymore.

It's what keeps me from taking any jobs really. Even the churches around where I live are running a lot of sequences. Nerve racking to me. Takes away all the impulsive -ness and improv! No fun! That's just me. Others like it I suppose.

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Bill C. Buntin · Posted 7 Jan 2015 10:21 am

Herb, you didn't know that all your old analog recordings were sloppy?

I guess that means I have to throw away all my 180gram vinyl? My dizzy collection, my Barney kessel collection?? Yikes!!!

Tony, I resist the urge to snap to the grid almost daily. But it is seriously a good tool. I use Logic Pro which is apples pro tools competitor, it is truly amazing what I can do with logic, or I guess all DAW software really??

Still, nothing beats live combo with good players, good tone, not loud. Or for my listening and playing preferences anyway.

Don Drummer · From: West Virginia, USA

Just think about it. Editing used to be done using a flimsy recording tape, a razor and some kind of adhesive!

Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

Recording to a click, grid, quantization, editing shallow or deep, are all just tools like any other, incredibly useful, and relatively easy to misuse.
I used to be quite good at tape editing, and I don't miss it one bit for what can be done digitally, and easier to a grid recording. Things like eliminating/ adding a chorus, cutting a verse in half, running two tunes together (ala "Layla), and on and on are infinitely easier with a time-constant gridded recording. Not to mention immediately "un-doable" if they don't work. That doesn't mean it has to have the life sucked out of it, or that anyone can make a great record with just a mouse.

There is a great story about the staff engineers at Columbia, who had been making great pop, jazz, and classical records for some time on three tracks, taking delivery of their first 8 track recorder. Standing around asking "Who'll ever need more than three tracks to make a record?" And fervently believing that technology would flop and disappear. Just saying.
_________________
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
www.musicfarmstudio.com

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

Les Cargill · From: Oklahoma City, Ok, USA

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

The lines can be turned on or off in the display. If they are on you can use them as they are and just ignore them during recording. They are then useful as a visual guide and used for "snap to" editing. You can also use the lines as markers for measures And beats. That is what is generally referred to as recording on the grid. That opens a bunch more options.

The most insane digital editing is done for classical recording. They screw with every note. Glen Gould started the compulsive perfection craziness editing with tape about 50 years ago.
_________________
Bob

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

that seems really wrong somehow. you think if 'any' music should be pure, it would be classical.

Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

I haven't been to many classical engineering sessions, but the most intensive editing "to grid" I've seen has been on country records in Nashville. Stuff many people probably think is pristine, performed by the best musicians on the planet is edited deeply for pocket, groove and note placement. The occasional errant beat or cymbal hit erased, rhythm section sped up or slowed down to accentuate structural changes, on and on. In the hands of a skilled editor the tracks most frequently do sound noticeably better to my ears.

I will say, with an average or below average band, the improvement is immense with some editing for pocket. I'm not talking about "quantizing" everything to a strict grid, but, for instance, Putting the kick and snare pretty much on the grid lines or click, pocketing the attack of the bass just behind the drums, so it locks but sounds like a guy listening to and playing with the drummer, and adjusting the attack of guitars and keys by what kind of chord and attack (strum, slow or fast initial envelope, etc.) are being used. It takes a hopefully musical ear, and sometimes what was originally played has the best feel or timing, but it's amazing what kind of sonic improvements some editing can do. Even top drawer players occasionally drop meter or throw in extraneous noises, finger scrapes, breaths, chair squeaks, all of which are much easier to edit digitally.

It can certainly be overdone, but also have great, musical results. Just tools.
_________________
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
www.musicfarmstudio.com

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

steve takacs · From: beijing, china via pittsburgh (deceased)

Bill, are "sequences" parts other musicians (steel, guitar, piano etc.) put down that are pre-recorded and then added to what the drummer plays which has also pre-recorded?

Excuse my ignorance. I've also never heard of the phrase "locked to a grid" either. Thx, stevet

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Yes, classical music gets edited, because the takes are generally much longer. But Glenn Gould was an extreme example who gave up performing live quite early in his career. He manipulated tape (as it was then) because he could, not because he needed to - he was a pretty accurate player.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

Not to speak for Bill, Steve, but he seems to be talking about pre-recorded instrumental, and often background vocal harmony, parts that are recorded to a click (which is basically an auditory "grid"!) which a live drummer can then play toâ€¦ and when the chorus comes around, the vocals play back, or the added percussion, rhythm guitar, keyboards or whatever. If you've ever seen a band playing and heard an instrument obviously not on stage, it's either playing as a sequence like that, or being triggered as a sample from a keyboard or similar.

Many live events for years (TV, sporting events, etc.) use all sequenced tracks and just the lead vocal sung over that, (or even the vocal pre-recorded!) to eliminate the chance for various technical issues. Of course if the drummer or sound man starts the wrong sequence, it's a major FUBARâ€¦

This is also frequently done in the studio with things like keyboard parts, background vocals, rhythm patternsâ€¦ once you have a perfect stack of harmony vocals on the first chorus, for instance, if it's all recorded to a grid, you can simply copy and paste to the next chorus, saving a lot of recording time and strain on singers. This is called "flying in" a part, from one section to another. Sometimes the randomness in a different take is preferred. Many drum and effects programs now will time stretch to the grid of the current session, so you can also fly in parts from an effects library, etc.

Another of the most useful aspects of recording to a grid is using alternate takes. If the drummer/ rhythm section is playing tightly to a click track, it's very common to hear a great first and third verse, say, in take one, and better, more grooving choruses on take two or three. With a grid recording on a modern DAW you can simply highlight the better sections, move back to the other take, and paste them in where needed. With a bit of crossfading and maybe a couple of edits, it's a seamless transition leaving the best parts of several takes to build on. In the "old" days of tape splicing, you might end up with a very different length or speed of chorus doing it that way, You can hear quite a bit of that in some classic rock and pop recordings.

For an engineer, it's very rewarding to be able to almost instantaneously provide a band with the best of three or four run-throughs as a final unified track.
_________________
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
www.musicfarmstudio.com

Clete Ritta · From: San Antonio, Texas

Ever since drum machines and midi sequencing came along, the majority of pop music went to the grid lock system of recording and editing. There is however a very useful feature in many modern DAWs for going old school: Tempo Map. This enables a rhythm track that was recorded freely with no metronome to become the guide for recording more tracks and editing to be performed as if there were a quantized grid in place. It analyses and calculates the shift in tempo for each bar and maps it out for the duration of the track.

steve takacs · From: beijing, china via pittsburgh (deceased)

Mark, thanks for putting that information into something even I could understand. stevet

Forum Index > Pedal Steel	Goto page 1, 2 Next	Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic