Relationship between instrument/sound system

Terry McBurney · From: Houston, TX

I realize that "sound or tone" can be subjective to the listener. But what is the relationship between the instrument and the chosen sound system? Can you combine a lower grade instrument with a superior sound system and get positive results? Is the sound in the hands of the instrument maker (pick one of the better known names)or is it in the hands of the maker of the amp, speaker, etc?
Thank you for helping me learn.

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Gino Iorfida · From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA

I would lean toward the opposite being true. AT least on the 6 string tuiter, a good guitar will sound good no matter what you play through, whereas a poorer guitar, no matter how much you do to it, will only sound so-so

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Garbage in, Garbage out.
A $5,000 steel in a $100 amp sounds like the Amp, worse and worse as you push the amp to do what it can't. With a great instrument you are at the amps limitations not the instruments.
A $1,000 amp and $50 mic into a nice PA,
sounds like a cheap mic, except what leaks from the stage from the good amp and steel.

A $250 mic on the good player, steel and amp but a poor sound system sounds as good as the system can.
A marginal steel, played well, through a too small amp on stage with a nice mic on it and a good sound system will sound as good as the player can make his equipment sound.
But won't leak off stage much.
if the amp has a direct line out to the PA it will sound as good as the amp and the PA can sound, but won't have any of your cabinet sound... that you use to monitor your playing and sound.
I hope this helps.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 13 March 2003 at 06:37 AM.]

Sidney Malone · From: Buna, TX

Terry, As said above it all matters to some extent. The ideal situation would be to have the best guitar, pickup and amp that would produce the tone you wanted and then it would all be up to you.

Some will say that a great player can make any guitar sound good which is partially true. A great player can make a cheap guitar sound better than I can but they can't make it sound as good as their "chosen" guitar.

While setting in the MSA demo room at the Dallas show this past weekend I saw something demonstrated that proved what I already believed. I saw 5 top pro players try these guitars out, all of them known for great tone, as they tried different pickups (I think 4)and switched between 2 top of the line amps, there was a definate difference in the tone on each different setup. They all sounded great but they all sounded different.

I don't know what level of a steel player you are but it usually takes at least 2-3 years to develop enough skill and execution to figure out what sound your trying to get. As you said, sound is subjctive to the listener so you will need to figure out what sound your going for and find the best rig including your hands to get it.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Sydney said,

"A great player can make a cheap guitar sound better than I can but they can't make it sound as good as their "chosen" guitar."

IMO, that is probably the MOST poignant statement ever said on this forum. I could not agree more.

God bless you Sydney and all the rest of you,

carl

David Doggett · Posted 13 Mar 2003 8:31 am

Disregarding the player (which has been well covered above) it becomes a "weakest link" kind of thing. Except for old damaged steel guitars and the cheapest student models, all modern steel guitars (and well maintained older pro models) will sound pretty good until they hit the amp. Then the amp, speaker (and mic and PA system if they are involved) will make the guitar sound bad or good.

Steels played with a volumn pedal require much more clean head room than regular guitar. Small low power guitar amps will sound bad for steel. Amps designed for steel usually have 100 to 400 watts of clean power. I think a good rule of thumb is that pedal steel needs about 4 times as much power as a regular guitar would need. So a 200 watt steel amp will be needed in a band where the guitar player opens up on a 50 watt amp.

If you play into a PA, then that could become the weakest link - likewise the guy running the PA.

Steel guitar bodies and pickups have more subtle sound differences that are mostly personal preference. They wont help much with a bad amp or PA problem. Also, the volumn pedal can make a difference. Using a preamp "buffer" to match impedance of a pot volumn pedal to the amp can make a big difference with some pickups (especially cheaper ones), and the Hilton infrared hi-fi pedal eliminates that problem.

So again, it's a weakest link thing. I'd rather have a modest sounding steel played through a great sounding amp, than a great sounding steel played through a low watt distorting amp.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

All of the above.
And as usual CD gets right to the heart of matters.
I will add if all parts are good till the PA. you will be good, but at the mercy of the PA and the nut behind the wheel.
If all your tools are good it is worth it to have your own GOOD mic for your amp and not be dependant on what ever the sound man happens to have left over after micing the drums and guitars.

Ideally you should see what sounds best in a recording studio with great monitors,
and then buy that mic for yourself.
But any of the great marks in the $200-300 range will cover a steel amp well. Sennheisser 421 is a solid reliable dynamic mic, but there are other choices that very well could be better with your tone. Mid range AKG is OK too.I really like Earthworks fron NH. But they aren't road mics per se.
Each mic has it's characteristics so don't just assume a pricey mic is right for your usage. It could be a cheaper one sounds wonderful with your set up.

If any PA guy tries to put a Sure Sm-57 or 58 in front of your amp just shoot him. Great for voices and snare drums, but PSG...
not on your tintype.
This would take your $4000 investment in steel sound and bring it down to $150 out front. Nothing against Sure, they have some higher range mics, for other purposes, that are quite good. Solid company too.

As far as too small amps, on stage certainly a problem. In the studio you can use smaller amps. I record with a '50 Fender Tweed Champ 12.5w ... for it's particular sound, at very low volume, but put a microphone worth 2 times my Sho-Bud Pro II's price on it. But I never would take that mic to a gig!

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 13 March 2003 at 09:33 AM.]

Ulf Edlund · From: Umeå, Sweden

It's in the hands of each and every link in the soundchain. I guess that if i had to have a weak link i'd want it as late in that chain as possible. You can never recreate tone in any sound system. If it's not there in the beginning it won't be there in the end.
For example i once owned a telecaster made of very dense wood. It was really heavy and sounded bad, no matter what i plugged it into. I replaced the pickup with a really good one, but it made very little difference.
I finally gave up and got rid of it.
So i guess the old "garbage in garbage out" still stands.

-Uffe

[This message was edited by Ulf Edlund on 13 March 2003 at 10:52 AM.]

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Same as it ever was *

* David Byrne

Terry McBurney · From: Houston, TX

The wealth of knowledge on this Forum is incredible.

I thank you!

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

To put it simply, get the best of everything that you can afford. Then, after you've saved some more money, get something better!

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