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Topic: Middle 9th tone |
Wayne Cox
From:
Chatham, Louisiana, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 29 Sep 2002 6:03 pm |
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I am mainly directing this to b0b but will welcome any constructive comments on the subject. b0b,I thought it would be best to start a new thread on this subject. O.K., I know that several of you have tried this idea;putting a 9th scale tone in the middle of a "sixth" tuning such as C6th. What I am hoping to gain from this thread is some ideas on how to resolve the two conflicts that arise from the two tuning concepts.To clarify;when using a 6th tuning ,you have many full,rich chords that can be raked,picked, or strummed. The down side is those large intervals (such as C to E)which necessitate more bar movement when you want to pick faster,tighter intervaled scales.The inverse of this is,of course,the solution which creates a new problem;such as putting a D note or D string in between the middle C and E strings. This increases your ability to play faster,tighter scales,but clutters up full chords when you don't need a 9th.....I have,at present,only found two solutions:..1.
I added a pedal on to my C6th, which pulls the middle C to D,and the A to C. This gives me the 9th effect in a 6th tuning...2.The only solution I have found for the 9/6 dilemma is the "Sacred Steel" concept,whereby the extra root note is held in reserve as a duplicate root until needed as a 9th in the I or as a 6th in the IV.
Any other unique solutions?
W.C. |
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Jay Jessup
From:
Charlottesville, VA, USA
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Posted 30 Sep 2002 7:24 am
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Wayne,
Buddy Emmons did this back in the 70's with basically the same approach that you used but adjusted the 9 and 10 strings as well, I think you can find that listed along with the Martino licks on Ernie's website. Paul Fanklin also does something similar although he doesn't change the 10 string, I think I have a copy of that if it's not on b0b's tunigs site.
Wayne seems like he is pretty far along with this concept but for the rest of you that may have thought about it but didn't want to take the leap of adding the D in between the C and E like I did or changing your pedal setup there is a quick and easy way to experiment with this and that is simply remove the 10'th string and add that D there. It's out of sequence and a little awkward to get to but it keeps it out of the way of the rest of the C6 stuff you would do and is still there to hear if it will fit into things you want to do. Best of all it only takes the a few minutes to change the string instead of all the time I put into making the change(since removed) on my guitar. |
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Wayne Cox
From:
Chatham, Louisiana, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 30 Sep 2002 12:04 pm
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Thanks for the input,Jay. Sometimes i get so into a concept that I develope a Myopic view of it. You know,kind of like a horse with blinders on;I'm pulling the wagon,but blind to other possibilities. Buddy E. was on the right track but IMHO just tried to pull too much with one pedal. Even though I have used "out of sequence" strings on the low end of non-pedal tunings,I never thought of putting that middle D in the 10th string position on a pedal guitar. If the string gauging doesn't create too much rattle,this could be worth some serious effort.
Anyone have any other creative ideas for this thread?....Thanks again,Jay!
W.C. |
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Michael Johnstone
From:
Sylmar,Ca. USA
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Posted 30 Sep 2002 8:41 pm
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| The E9/B6 12 string universal addresses these intervals quite well and probably deserves a second look from some of you dyed-in-the-wool double neckers who are looking for new combinations.It sure solved a lot of deficiencies in both standard tunings for me. But let's not make this into a universal vs D-10 rant - I'm just talking changes and intervals here. -MJ- |
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Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
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Posted 1 Oct 2002 5:31 am
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Hey Wayne,
About a year ago I went back to an extended E9 after playing a U-12 for many years. I started tuning my 9th string to C# instead of D and then I noticed that I had the same thing as that D note on C6th when my E's were lowered. I've been adding the 6th changes and pedals back to the guitar and have it back up to 7 & 5 now. What you can do is if you have a C6th, leave most of your pedals alone except the one which raises 2 and drops 6 a half tone. On this pedal you raise 7 a half and leave 6 alone. On your "Boo Wah pedal you can lower 7, 8, & 10 a half for your 6 chord. You do lose the sound of that low C moving to A but that's kind of an old sound anyway. I do miss it for Nightlife though!! On my BooWah I use the bottom mostly for some finger style stuff so what I do is the equivilent of lowering 7 a half and raising 8 a half. They both become a C# note but that's OK for what I do with them. If you do lower the C to B then you've got a 2 in the scale which is usable if you do soloing in the lower registers. Most of your other pedals you can leave alone. Have a good day...JH
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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.
[This message was edited by Jerry Hayes on 01 October 2002 at 06:33 AM.] |
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Wayne Cox
From:
Chatham, Louisiana, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 1 Oct 2002 8:54 am
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Jerry, I value everyone's ideas,especially when it is obvious that they have really put some time and thought into it as you obviously have. Would you consider posting your full setup? Or E-Mail it to me? Thanks!
W.C. |
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Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
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Posted 1 Oct 2002 10:42 am
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Hey Wayne,
I don't know how to post the thing correctly so I emailed it to you. Have a good 'un.....JH
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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.
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Wayne Cox
From:
Chatham, Louisiana, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 1 Oct 2002 12:37 pm
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Thanks Jerry!!!
W.C. |
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Wayne Cox
From:
Chatham, Louisiana, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 1 Oct 2002 12:47 pm
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Re: Michael J.,
Even though your comment was short, I hope the other Steelers appreciate the depth of your statement. When someone gets into the "Universal mode" they are forced into a deeper comprehension of how all tunings are related and overlap musically.
Thanks!...W.C. |
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Jeff Lampert
From:
queens, new york city
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Posted 1 Oct 2002 2:05 pm
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| Quote: |
| I hope the other Steelers appreciate the depth of your statement. When someone gets into the "Universal mode" they are forced into a deeper comprehension of how all tunings are related and overlap musically. |
This is one of the key arguments that has been presented by Universalists for the superiority the U-12 approach. HOWEVER, just because some Universalists understand and can use the "related and overlap" aspect of the two tunings does not in fact make the U-12 a superior tuning. For that matter, many players who play a U-12 use a knee lever that "locks" and "unlocks" the tuning from a B6 (i.e. C6) to an E9. And I think that it is accepted that, if you don't "lock" the tuning into B6 (C6) mode, then you would have to use a knee to convert the tuning, and that knee would no longer be available for other C6-related purposes. This is no trivial point. As an avid C6 player, I require both knees quite often. I can guarantee you that no E9 player would ever be happy if you told them they would have to tie up a knee just to get standard E9 voicings. IMO, the best true Universalists probably don't think in terms of C6 when playing jazz or anything normally played on C6. They think in terms of the Universal tuning which certainly makes certain things available that you can't get on C6. But then, they aren't playing C6 in that case. The point of all this is not to simplify the whole thing with such a simplistic statement. |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 1 Oct 2002 8:13 pm
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I agree with both Jeff and Wayne (if that's possible  )
BUT, as a 25+ year proponent and player of universal tunings, I'm not sure what seeing the relationships really buys a D-10 player. They are three separate tunings, all with strengths and weaknesses. If we had found Nirvana we'd all be using the same tuning(s) with exactly the same changes. yeah, right
I use E9 positions in songs that the knowledgeable listener would think is a sixth tuning song and vice versa. I think of E9 and it's pedal/lever changes as B6 positions and sometimes integrate the B6 tuning and changes with E9 -- sometimes in ways the D-10 players may find objectionable. I like the ability to use it all at once -- that's why I like to have seven or eight knee levers all available at the same time to express the musical ideas I hear in my head. I don't continually hold the E to D# lever in while playing in sixth mode -- a lot of the time I'm in the P6 (F9 on C6 ... E9 on B6) position which I have always had on a knee lever. I augment the fifth with 1/2 A pedal, use the B pedal as a C6 player would use A to Bb, and find those and other combinations valuable to my musical expression. I often use both knees when in 'sixth mode'. There are a bunch of ways to look at making music on this Rube Goldberg contraption.
I've said it before . . . this instrument requires a lot of trade-offs and compromises to avoid the loony bin. We can obsess ourselves to death if we let the minutiae get to us. If we bear in mind that the music is the thing, we'll go a long way toward preserving our sanity. A lot of folks contend that the Buddy Emmons 8 and 7 config is optimal and should be standardized, but Buddy is experimenting with extending that setup and has for his entire career.
Oh yeah, Wayne, this thread is about the 'middle 9th tone in the sixth tuning' -- I've tried a bunch of things and none of them work for me so I just stick with what I've been playing almost three decades. It ain't perfect, but what is??????
In many ways, I feel that the lack of standardization that Jeff often laments can be a positive attribute of our instrument. I celebrate the differences in approach among diverse players like Julian Tharpe, Maurice Anderson, Buddy Emmons, Lloyd Green, and Ralph Mooney --- and Johnny Cox for that matter. All play different tunings with different changes and slightly different and PERSONAL relationships with their tunings and pedal changes that helps them create THEIR MUSIC. That's what it's all about to me. Find what works for you and use it.
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 01 October 2002 at 09:29 PM.] |
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Dennis Boyd
From:
Suisun City, CA USA
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Posted 2 Oct 2002 12:52 am
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Hi everybody,
I think Larry has the right idea here. Every steel guitar tuning provides a unique approach to what music can be played on the instrument. Each difference in tuning has an advantage in what it allows the player to create. The 6th tunings provide a more open chord approach while the 9th tunings make playing scales easier. We will continue to experiment to find new ways to do music on the instrument that we love.
Even the standard guitar is no longer standard in its tuning. A 7th string has been added on some. Rock guitarists are constantly using drop string tunings to get new sounds on their intruments.
Change is good as we learn new ways to advance the capabilities of the pedal steel guitar.
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Wayne Cox
From:
Chatham, Louisiana, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 2 Oct 2002 5:05 am
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Re:Jeff L.,
Michael J. said,"lets not make this into a universal vs D-10 rant",and...I did not say,that a U-12 is a "superior tuning",so what's your point,Jeff?
If I had a 4-neck U-12 setup,I would be happy,untill I tried to lift it! Deacon Anderson,from Houston, still plays great jazz on a 6-string lap steel.How are these two facts related?...We are both happy!
Have a nice day,Jeff!
W.C. |
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Jeff Lampert
From:
queens, new york city
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Posted 2 Oct 2002 6:24 am
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| Quote: |
| Michael J. said,"lets not make this into a universal vs D-10 rant" |
I wasn't going to until you said ....
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| I hope the other Steelers appreciate the depth of your statement. When someone gets into the "Universal mode" they are forced into a deeper comprehension of how all tunings are related and overlap musically. |
I felt that that was a VERY presumptuous statement. The so-called "depth" of that statement has been an acknowledged point for many years, and can be debated very easily without coming to any resolution. LB's point is that there is no right or wrong. That's good enough for me.
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| what's your point,Jeff? |
My point was to present a counter point of view.
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| Have a nice day,Jeff! |
And you too, of course!
[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 02 October 2002 at 07:29 AM.] |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 2 Oct 2002 7:19 am
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LB's point is that the music is the thing. We get so hung up in the mechanics and theoretical aspects specific to the pedal steel we sometimes ignore the fact that the desired outcome is beautiful music -- not some idealized tuning chart.
It ain't the meat . . . it's the MOTION.
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro |
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Wayne Cox
From:
Chatham, Louisiana, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 2 Oct 2002 7:40 am
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Jeff, perhaps you were a little presumptuous in presuming my presumptuousness. And, if the conclusion from past debates on this issue is:that there is no right or wrong in this issue;then, why debate the issue when you have already reached your conclusion? Why defend an issue against an assault that was not made? Isn't that really the issue?
I could go on,but there's a hurricane coming,and its a much bigger issue,which has not reached its conclusion.
Have fun!
W.C. |
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Jeff Lampert
From:
queens, new york city
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Posted 2 Oct 2002 8:13 am
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| The presumptuousness of your presumption presumes a presumption of an issue that isn't an issue but if in fact is made an issue, then becomes presumptuous in presuming an issue where there isn't one. |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 2 Oct 2002 8:36 am
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| Quote: |
| there's a hurricane coming |
Wayne,
DUCK!!!!!
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 02 October 2002 at 09:37 AM.] |
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Dan Tyack
From:
Olympia, WA USA
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Posted 2 Oct 2002 4:14 pm
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To get back to the original question... (on a C6th tuning with the D in the middle). I used a pedal similar to Buddy used to use and exactly like Paul F uses which raised the 9th, 8th, and 7th strings to temporarily change the tuning. The only problem with this is that you really want to use all the other pedals with this tuning, and I am no good at playing two footed. SO I just changed the tuning and elimated the low C. I understand the issue with not being able to get those western swing type voicings (raking the thumb), but for me this was a positive, in that I was looking for chord voicings that didn't cry out 'here comes the swing steel guitar' when playing jazz. And this tuning with D in the middle is great for getting more 'modern' voicings.
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www.tyack.com
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Jeff Lampert
From:
queens, new york city
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Posted 2 Oct 2002 7:11 pm
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| Quote: |
| I understand the issue with not being able to get those western swing type voicings (raking the thumb), but for me this was a positive, in that I was looking for chord voicings that didn't cry out 'here comes the swing steel guitar' when playing jazz. And this tuning with D in the middle is great for getting more 'modern' voicings. |
There are TWO points here. One point is the raking of chords. Obviously, if there is an "avoid" note in the middle of the tuning, then you cannot freely rake chords. HOWEVER, and this is a totally different point, it isn't just "western swing" chords that you cannot rake. The very way that the tuning is constructed allows you to readily access chords that are common in jazz standards. This includes, in no particular order, maj7, min7, min7b5, min6, minMaj7, 7#11, alt, Maj7#5, dim7, altered chords such as 7b9, 7b9b5, 7b13, 7b9b13, etc. etc. (check out a fakebook, and you'll see that 90% or more chords fall into those categories.) Basically, a massive part of your entire inventory of jazz chords is interrupted by this extra note. So, there is a lot more than a narrow set of swing chords that are negatively impacted. If you don't play traditional types of jazz standards, this may not matter. But if you do, putting the D note in the middle is a very poor tradeoff, IMO. What you get is far outweighed against what you give up. And I'm not even getting into giving up range that the low C note gives you. That's for another post. Regards. .. Jeff
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Wayne Cox
From:
Chatham, Louisiana, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 3 Oct 2002 7:26 am
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Jeff and Dan both have good points here,which,IMHO,are representative of the two main perspectives that pervade the world of steel guitar thought on this issue.This has been discussed before on the Forum,but I'll express this anyway. As Larry B. has said,"Everything is a tradeoff".Dan's solution has disadvantages and Jeff's standard approach has limitations. This brings us full circle,back to why I started this thread in the first place;to see if there were any new ideas,solutions,or compromises I had not already tried.Dan's solution can create an inconvenience with chord execution while enhancing scale execution.However, as b0b pointed out on a previous thread,there are those of us who are comfortable using three finger picks w/thumb.This gives you 4-note chord expresssion without raking or strumming.But even this has a tradeoff;the chords have a slightly different timbre,tonality,etc.,which Jeff probably hears. Jeff,like many others,probably has a discriminating ear,which has trouble accepting that alternate sound that a "picked" chord has. So far,the only way I have been able to hit on a compromise that my ears can accept,is with the extra pedal. I simply do not use other pedals with it,however a couple of my levers work nicely with it.
Hurricane Lilly is here. I had to make some preparations yesterday. Hope they pay off. Some of our Forum members in the southern part of the state had to evacuate yesterday. I pray that they will have homes to come back to. Tunings and knee lever problems pale in comparison.
W.C. |
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Wayne Cox
From:
Chatham, Louisiana, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 3 Oct 2002 7:36 am
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Oh,by the way,Jeff;I'll abdicate on the "presumptuous" issue.But then,you probably presumed I would!
W.C. |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 3 Oct 2002 8:39 am
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Wayne, YOU'RE A HOOT!!!!
WELCOME TO THE FORUM! You fit right in. It's great to have you around.
I hope the weather gods smile on you, my friend. Sounds like you're prepared. Best of luck.
Looking forward to more intelligent discussion on complex issues. |
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Dan Tyack
From:
Olympia, WA USA
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Posted 3 Oct 2002 8:55 am
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Jeff, I think that you are making my point. The standard C6th is really well set up for playing all the chords you will hear in jazz arrangements of standards. And I love to hear that style of playing. But, those voicings that lay easy on the C6th have a definite sound (that pedal steel jazz sound). In order to develop my own voice on the instrument, I have been trying to avoid those voicings. Having the D in the middle helps me avoid them, and there are a ton of other voicings readily available with the D (there are 4th stacks all over the place with no pedals needed).
In terms of raking, for most jazz playing I just prefer when I explicitly pick the notes. In a band setting (with bass player, guitar or keyboard) I find that I usually don't want to play more than 3 notes of a chord, but if I want a 5 note voicing (the bass player plus 4 notes from me) I'll just use another finger to pick it. Again this is a personal thing, this is the approach that works best for me in playing this style of music, I'm certainly not saying this is the only or even best way.
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www.tyack.com
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Jeff Lampert
From:
queens, new york city
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Posted 3 Oct 2002 10:12 am
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| Quote: |
| Jeff, I think that you are making my point |
Dan, the reason I made my point is that your post implied that only "Western swing" type voicings were affected. As you know, Western swing voicings tend to be much simpler than traditional jazz, concentrating primarily on 6th and 9th chords, with an occaional diminished or augmented thrown in. I wanted to make it clear that the dynamic you were changing with your tuning affected a far greater universe of chords that just "Western swing". I took you for what you literally said in your post, and felt I needed to explain the greater ramifications that weren't clear, IMO. I should also mention that when you change this dynamic and restrict your abilities on the full range of traditional jazz chords, it obviously follows that various jazz concepts related to those chords (scales played over those chords, substitution, extension, dominant alteration, and resolution ideas, etc. etc.) are similarly affected.
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| I find that I usually don't want to play more than 3 notes of a chord |
I enjoy doing steel guitar orchestration of standards as well as accompanying singers. Toward those goals, it's critical to have the full voicings available, as well as the low C note to provide the kind of critical bass support that is normally only found on pianos. As you said, one's musical perspective drives alot of the decisions one makes. Regards.
[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 03 October 2002 at 11:14 AM.] |
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