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Post new topic IV seven chord
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Author Topic:  IV seven chord
C Dixon

Duluth, GA USA
Post  Posted 23 Apr 2002 7:53 am    
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Music theorists and many "ear players" have NO trouble at all with a V7 chord. It is of course a Dominant chord in all of music. And no way we could live without it.

But what about a IV7 chord?

Is it used? Often? Seldom? When? How?

This is something that I have become quite interested in of late.

One of the first times I ever recall seeing it used prominently was when I first got my D-10 and started listening to great players play it the way Buddy Emmons played on the C neck.

And that is the wide spread use of the 6th pedal while playing this neck. What this pedal does is make a IV9 chord (or IV7 chord if the 1st and 5th strings are omitted).

The interesting thing about this chord and particularly its sound is; it tends to defy musical theory training.

IE, I, IIM, IIIM, IV, V7, VIM chords for a given key signature. Note there is NO IV7 chord in there.

Yet, proficient C6 PSG players use it all the time when the tune calls for a IV chord. After years of study, I believe this is most beautifully displayed if one takes "blues" type of playing into account.

Try this:

C6 Neck: Pick strings 3, 4 and 6. Then simply engage the 6th pedal and then release. Or let it sustain a bit while engaged and maybe repick. You are going I-IV7-1. It has a nice sound.

Now do it with some rythym back up if you get a chance. And listen to that sound. Have the rythym player play a IV chord while you play the IV7 chord. Nice "blues" sound.

Further thinking about this, I recall an old Jeff Newman seminar where he showed us how to use a manuever on E9th while playing "6th" swing sounds. In this case the A pedal was half down and the B pedal fully engaged. And the A pedal was rocked on and off this "half pedal" action. Again it was I-IV7-I. But as Jeff so poignantly pointed out it can do soooo much when playing swing or blues types tunes.

If you are not aware of this musical ditty, you might want to try it sometimes and see just how affective it can be. Along with other embelishments of course.

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Greg Vincent

Los Angeles, CA USA
Post  Posted 23 Apr 2002 8:09 am    
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Yes Carl that IV9 is sure a beauty! It can almost sound like a minor version of the major tonic chord. Somehow when a bluesy number goes to the IV it sounds PERFECT!
Which is strange cuz the 7 note of the IV chord is not diatonic at all. But it works!

--Who woulda thunk!

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Al Marcus

Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)
Post  Posted 23 Apr 2002 8:11 am    
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Carl-Glad to see you back . Thanks for bringing that up. The new younger players just trying C6 will appreciate it.

We have all used that so many times and it sure does give a bluesy effect.

We used to use it for just going to the IV chord on the same fret the tonic is on.Just almost like going to Pedals A and B down on E9. but jazzier sound.

Then go up two frets with pedal 6 and get the V7-This will help a lot of newbies to get going on C6. Thanks for posting...al
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Larry Bell

Englewood, Florida
Post  Posted 23 Apr 2002 10:05 am    
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Blues, swing (think OPEN to P6 on C6), jazz(same), rock
NOT country (very often)
Obviously it depends on the song and melodic structure itself.

I use the idea on E9 a lot too -- makes a cool, almost pseudo-blue note in a country song. Fits good on Waylon style stuff. Mooney uses it a lot.

Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 23 April 2002 at 11:06 AM.]

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Jeff Lampert

queens, new york city
Post  Posted 23 Apr 2002 10:07 am    
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[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 23 April 2002 at 11:12 AM.]

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Jeff A. Smith

Angola,Ind. U.S.A.
Post  Posted 23 Apr 2002 2:46 pm    
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It seems like I read something once about the unstable nature of the tritone,(the 3rd and b7th,) in the dom. 7th chord being what made it fit in so many different places, and welcome more extension notes than major or minor chord types. You can also play more scale types over it, like a minor pentatonic, which includes a minor instead of a major third. Of course chordally, you have the 7#9 chord, playing the major third with the #9, which is essentially playing both types of third together. Anything that allows those two notes to be played together, (although not in the same octave,) has got to have an interesting range of tolerance.

In a Ted Greene book on chord progressions, he says that 7th chords can theoretically be used as a substitute for any minor 7th. He offers no scientific reason for this, so I refer back to the "unstable nature of the tritone" idea.
Other than the blues applications, I most easily use 7th chords in place of ii minors, and vi minors.

[This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 23 April 2002 at 06:47 PM.]

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Bobby Lee

Cloverdale, California, USA
Post  Posted 23 Apr 2002 4:40 pm    
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The IV7 chord is often used in blues. The blues scale contains a flatted third, which is the 7 in the IV7 chord.

For example, key of E, blues scale is:
E F# G A Bb B C# D E

The IV7 chord is A7:
A C# E G
which are all scale notes.

So, on a blues tune you are very safe playing the IV7 chord. It sounds right. On a standard country tune, the IV7 will add a blues flavor which may or may not be what is desired.

Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)
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Bengt Erlandsen

Brekstad, NORWAY
Post  Posted 23 Apr 2002 6:59 pm    
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Combine the IV7 and the V7.
Example F7 & G7 = the notes F G A B C D Eb F (F lydian b7 scale)
Looks like the IV & V chord from the C melodic minor scale. C D Eb F G A B C

The Lydian b7 scale ( 1 2 3 #4 5 6 b7 ) can also be used for all dom7ths other than the V7 with good results.

But most of the time when I play a I IV V blues I treat all chords as dom7ths and only change the appropriate note to get the b7.


[This message was edited by Bengt Erlandsen on 23 April 2002 at 09:03 PM.]

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