Paul Redmond, Mr. Magic, and the ZB rebuild

steve takacs · From: beijing, china via pittsburgh (deceased)

Some of you may know Paul Redmond while others may not. If you need work done on a steel at some point, do consider using him. Several years back, he worked on my Kline, adding levers, putting in his own design for a half stop for string 2, a lock lever for the E to Eb changes and a few other things. Guitar turned out beautifully and has worked well ever since.

So when I needed a rebuild on the ZB that was pretty much a basket case, I turned to Paul.. I will let Paul chime in , if he wishes to do so. He explains things a lot more technically than I ever could. Suffice it to say, he designed most of the undercarriage using the Kline concept; however, a lot of the design was based on his own ideas to accommodate my copedant. Thanks, Paul. steve t

David Higginbotham · From: Lake Charles, Louisiana, USA

Modern engineering while keeping the vintage design! That's some amazing work!!!!

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

WOW!!
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

ebb · From: nj

there is no finer craftsman than paul
i own #4 whitney and #2 ontrak plus he modded all of my fender 400s

Jim Pitman · From: Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA

Wow! Incredible job Paul.
Lately, I'm really appreciating that Kline/ZB changer concept with the stop adjusts at the end plate. I have this theory that pulling on an end plate has the potential for cancelling cabinet drop.
Can you comment on that Steve?
I'll bet it benefits temperature affects too - no pull rods to grow or shrink.

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

There are still pull rods under there. If the pull rods grow or shrink in other guitars, they probably would on a ZB also.

The one thing you have to be careful about these guitars that use the end plate to be the pedal stop, is to not use too much force on the pedals. You might damage the threads or strip them in the tuning nut (on a ZB). Many times, I had to crimp the part that has the threads that screw onto the rods (ZB's). On the Kline I had, I was tuning up one night right before a gig, and I pushed the B pedal down, and it went to the floor and stayed there. The hook on the finger that the loop on the rod goes on, snapped off. This was for the 3rd string. I had to turn the guitar over and hook the rod to the hook that lowers the 3rd string, tune string 3 to A, and lower it with the B pedal. SO that gig, I was raising 6 and lowering 3 (playing it backwards) all night. Had to remove the changer axle and swapped the broken finger with one from another string that I didn't have a raise on. These problems, I believe, were due to the fact that even when the pedal is fully depressed with the tuning nut stopped at the end plate, you can still exert a lot of force on the pedal, and it will transfer that force to the finger. Still a great system if you keep that problem in mind.

My (2) ZB's and Kline all had a small amount of cabinet drop, not much, but no more or less than my Carter, Williams, or the (2) Sho-Buds I have owned. None of the 7 guitars I owned, could you actually hear the cabinet drop. If you weren't seeing it on a tuner, you would never know it was happening.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

Jim Pitman · From: Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA

Richard,
On most other all pulls the stop is at the pedal rod where it meets the cross axle. In the case of our favorite pull change this is ~ 2 feet away from the changer. If this rod shrinks or grows your tuning changes. Coefficient of expansion X 2 feet is significant. Notso with you Kline. That's the beauty of that changer. There's only about an inch or two between the stop and pull finger for all changes. It is less affected by temperature change by at least a factor of 10 I'd guess.
Perhaps I'm a little too infatuated with cabinet drop, and tuning issues but I got a guitar that you can hear it on. Otherwise I like everything else about the guitar.
If there's a 10deg difference in ambient temperature between where my guitar is now and was, when it was last in tune, I have to touch up the lengthy pulls and lowers. I'd say it's almost calibrate-able. I can tell how different the temperature is by noting how much the pitch it is offset.
Does the Kline or ZB have springs and additional pedal stops down at the pedal such that the force is limited by the spring until you reach that hard pedal stop?

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Interesting post Jim. The Zb and the Kline have no additional springs or stops.

I guess I have been lucky with my guitars. My Carter, I would leave it in the back of my pickup, outside for a whole week (under a locking hard cover of course), and it would be pretty much still in tune the next weekend when I would set it up to play a gig.

The Kline was a great guitar (still is, I guess). I really wish I had mine back. It is absolutely the BEST guitar I have ever owned or played.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

richard burton · From: Britain

Paul has done a great engineering job on that ZB, but, to me, the whole essence of a ZB is the simplicity of the pull-train linkages after the changer.

It doesn't matter what that pull-train is, it could even be a piece of string, 'cause all the tuning is done at the endplate, and it doesn't rely on the pedals/levers hitting a consistent stop.

I see Paul has retained the yoke idea, this is what makes the simple ZB principle possible.

Al Vesel · From: Chisholm, Minnesota, USA

This guitar definitely has the WOW FACTOR". Steve. What a beauty & work of art. I totally agree that there is no finer craftsman than Paul. I have sent him some guitars to repair and he always goes the extra distance to not only repair a broken part, but in many cases re-machines another part that is more hefty than the original. He definitely cares about his work and pedal steel guitars. He lives and breathes them. For you guys and gals that don't know who Paul is, he is one of the top pedal steel luther's out there and builder of the new "OnTrak" pedal steel. And he previously as mentioned prior built the Whitney pedal steel guitar. And there is no finer machinist as far as I'm concerned.

Al V. Whoa!

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Emmons LeGrande SKH D-10 - WALKER STEREO STEEL AMP w JBL ENCLOSURES & TC ELECTRONICS M-ONE XL PROCESSOR, HILTON VP,FURMAN POWER CONDITIONER, SARNO's Steel Guitar BLACK BOX,BJS,ToneMaster bars,FENDER Strat, FENDER & Ovation acoustic's

Nick Reed · From: Russellville, KY USA

suprised those tuning keyheads are still on that guitar Laughing

steve takacs · From: beijing, china via pittsburgh (deceased)

Jim, I do not have the ZB year and won't till I return to the USA in June. As form my Klines, they have very little cabinet drop as Richard mentioned. Richard, I've never heard of the at happening with the breakage on a Kline. but will no be a little more conscious when I plop those pedals down.

Nick, hah, hah, I figured to just leave the keys on this ZB rather than go keyless. Make you "key" guys a little happier. Paul had to work on those keys also, to put them in good working order and to enhance their looks.

Ebb and Al, in my opinion, you got that right about Paul Redmond being a master machinist. And as Al says, he goes the extra mile to give you more in terms of product and definitely takes pride in his work. Ebb knows first hand by his purchase of Paul's Whitney and On-Track steels. Unless you see and play his guitars or those he's repaired, it's hard to understand this.

Richard, I have found trying to work on a ZB, with those crossbars, akin to going to hell and not returning when compared to working on the Kline mechanism. Apparently, others do as well. Perhaps if I were more able, like you, I could work on the ZB system, but I am not. These comments are from the long ZB thread on pages 104 and 105:

Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
Posted 25 Dec 2012 8:31 pm
I converted my late 70's D -10 to a similar type under carriage like a Kline. Mine also plays good and is easy to change setups. The E9th works a lot like a Cline and the C6th works like an Emmons push pull with the little springs on the pull rods at the bell cranks. Both methods work great once dialed in, didn't hurt the tone at all and is about 100 times easier to work on. I know a lot of the die hard ZB 'ers would not recommend but the cross bar mechanism is the pits as far as I'm concerned. I'll post some pics also later.

And :
Dave Zirbel
From:
Sebastopol, CA USA
Posted 25 Dec 2012 9:05 pm
I'd love to see the pics. The balanced pulls are genius but I think the workings are a bit crude, nothing against Zane. He got it rolling, Joe Kline fine tuned it. Klines are easier to tinker with. I'm taking her out on the bandstand next weekend for a test run. If it goes well with no hassles I may get fancy and have parts fabricated.
Thx for your comments , All steve t
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Joe A. Camacho · Posted 19 Feb 2013 1:36 pm

Kind of off subject but... are Kline's similar to ZB's? I notice that both you and Dave Zirbel have both guitars.

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

The ZB and Kline are very similar. The Kline is more of a modernized ZB design. Much easier to work on than the ZB.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

Micky Byrne · From: United Kingdom (deceased)

I am an internet friend of Paul. He used to build the "Whitney" Keyless steels, named after his daughter. He once sent me a picture of a Zum he'd converyed to a keyless. He's a 100% man on keyless guitars. His "Whitneys" were a state of the art steels Smile

Paul is also a real cat lover Smile

Micky "scars" Byrne U.K.

steve takacs · From: beijing, china via pittsburgh (deceased)

As Richard Sinkler says: The ZB and Kline are very similar. The Kline is more of a modernized ZB design. Much easier to work on than the ZB."

Here are two photos of John Shadid's ZB.

John Billing's Kline:

and two photos of Mark Dershaw's Kline:

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Steve, thanks for the pics. I will point out the major differences.

This pic shows the ZB pullrod "straps (kind of like the bellcranks on other guitars). Notice the rods have a bend at the end where it goes through the hole in the strap. The end also has a hole drilled in it for that little cotter pin to go through. That cotter pin is a pain in the a$$. The strap at the top of the pic is for a pedal with 2 pulls. The one at the bottom uses an "intermediate strap" attached to the main strap that allows 2 or pulls on the intermediate strap allowing 3 or more pulls on that pedal. They are attached to the main strap or cross shaft with a socket head cap screw, allowing the pullrod straps to pivot. By pivoting, the movement allows all strings to start and stop pulling at the exact same time.

This pic shows the "turnbuckle" that is used to shorten or lengthen the rod. It also is a real pain to adjust.

This is the Kline. Notice it used hex cross shafts as opposed to the strap type cross shafts that the ZB uses. It still uses the type of pullrod "straps" that the ZB used, but instead of a bend in the end of the rod, they used a straight rod that went through a fitting with a hole in it in the strap and a set screw to tighten it. If you needed to shorten or lengthen the rod, you just loosened the set screw and moved the rod in the direction you needed, and tightened the set screw. This was much easier than the turnbuckles and cotter pins on the ZB.

_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

steve takacs · From: beijing, china via pittsburgh (deceased)

Richard Sinkler, thanks, for pointing out so clearly how these mechanisms work.
I really learned a lot; thanks, for taking the time to clarify the differences. I certainly never visualized those ZB straps as "bell cranks" stevet

Paul Redmond · From: Illinois, USA

Like the latter-day Kline's, I used adjustable stop screws on Steve's guitar to control "over-travel" and minimize stresses on the endplate. Once each pull was tuned, I merely set the stop screw allowing for just a hair of "bump".
The major drawback to this type of pulling system is its lack of leverage selectivity. Aside from that, it gets 'er done!!!
PRR

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Paul... I have to say, I think you turned that ZB into a PERFECT guitar. Your work NEVER ceases to amaze me. I think Steve should give me that guitar (delivered by one of his gorgeous Chinese friends - female ones, Steve). Very Happy

While we are on he subject of the Kline, why has no one picked up on Joe's vertical knee lever design. That is the PERFECT vertical lever.

I was just looking again at that pic of the Kline. It looks as though there are indeed pedal stops. It looks like there is an angled piece with a set screw and a hex nut to lock it into place that is above the lever that the pedal rod hooks into. Can someone with a Kline comment on that? I didn't remember that. If you have a hard stop on the pedal, how can you assure that the mechanism will pull all the strings to pitch? I always remembered the hard stop to be at the end plate, but it's been probably 14 years since I have seen my Kline.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

Paul Redmond · From: Illinois, USA

It's a bit tricky to set at first. You tune at the endplate first, then run the stop screw up gradually, but back it down about 1/4 turn. That allows the pull to be completed at the endplate and the pulling system to be held taut without severely over-doing it.
PRR

Sonny Jenkins · From: Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx

Richard,,a Kline that I had about 10-12 years ago (sold to Larry Fout, I think it is the one Alan Cook has now) I sent to Joe to put my Day set up on. He said that he thought I would be happier with it if it had pedal stops (?),,,so,,,,he put them on. I think the one I have now has pedal stops. Can't think right now who I got it from,,probably 5-6 years ago. I think at some point in manufacture Joe started putting them on.

I think the guy I got this one from was from Kansas or Nebraska,,,he sold it to me so he could get an Anapeg,,,and I must say,,,that would be the only reason I would let mine go,,,,LOL

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Thanks Sonny. I don't remember the Kline I had having those pedal stops, so it probably didn't.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

Sonny Jenkins · From: Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx

also "balanced pulls",,,,,every time I try to get used to another brand of guitars,,,I MISS the balanced pulls of the Kline,,,,I guess it's the same with ZB players.

steve takacs · From: beijing, china via pittsburgh (deceased)

Mr. Richard Sinkler, Cen Yan wants to know what is keeping you from visiting Beijing to pick up the Kline (Paul still has the ZB). She is dying to meet someone to explain the intricacies of both the Kline and ZB steel guitar mechanisms. Hurry soon.

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