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Topic: Twin reverb FAIL for PSG |
Lynn Kasdorf
From:
Waterford Virginia, USA
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Posted 20 Mar 2012 5:09 pm |
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Last week in Austin I played a little showcase and I figured that I'd use the existing black face Twin Reverb that was there rather than haul in my own amp. Huge mistake!
I don't know if there was something wrong with the amp, but I fussed and fussed and never did get a tone that was even close to acceptable. It was really nasal and midrangey. It seemed to be lacking in bottom. I tried every combination I could think of, including brite switch on and off. I could never get the scoop that I craved.
In retrospect I should have tried left-most channel since I had an outboard reverb to see if maybe that channel had a different sound.
I heard guitar players use this amp and it seemed fine for them.
This is the 2nd time I have tried a twin that was in the backline on a gig and not liked it (at all!). I tried one last year a new club in DC and it was not clean enough. I guess they build these reissues to have crunch.
Now, to be fair, I have recorded PSG through an original silver face twin with factory JBLs that was very nice for steel, although after it warmed up a bit, there was noticeable grit. Not strictly a bad thing, but not clean enough for all situations. I don't know if this amp was modded or not.
Those of you who love a Twin reverb for PSG, has yours been modded (solid state rectifier, bigger caps, changes to the tone circuits, changes to the bias, etc.)?
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"You call that thing a guitar?" |
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Dave Hopping
From:
Aurora, Colorado
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Posted 20 Mar 2012 6:34 pm
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I'll be interested in everyone's opinion too.Been thinking about a Custom 15,but my Session 500 has got me spoiled and I'm just not sold on the idea that 85 tube watts will stay clean on a loud stage.
The closest I've come to that is my Music Man 212HD-150 and I'm not totally happy with it,for some of the same tonal goings-on that Lynn encountered with a TR. |
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Tim Marcus
From:
San Francisco, CA
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Posted 20 Mar 2012 8:24 pm
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yeah, the reissues are horrendous for anything. I hate it when I get stuck with one on the back line - not cool! Its certainly not the same animal as a vintage fender be it black or silver faced.
all Twin's have solid state rectifiers - only the Tweed ones had tubes, and they used a pair of them to reduce the sag.
I have measured the original Twin circuit to have about 55 clean watts. Thats a lot! Remember that tube and solid state power are very different because of the harmonics that make it through the tubes. They sound louder and fuller at a lower volume. 55 clean watts should be enough to melt people's eyeballs.
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 20 Mar 2012 9:00 pm
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| Huge difference between original hand wire Twins and the reissues. Not the same amp. |
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Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 20 Mar 2012 9:05 pm
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I have a Twin Reverb reissue that I like. It's not my regular steel amp, but I take it out occasionally, especially when I have to play steel and tele thru the same amp. I use a Lexicon reverb in front of the normal channel and I am O.K with the sound. If backline is furnished, I ask for a Twin, since I know they'll be likely to have one and I can live with it. Yes, the highs and mids are tricky to deal with, but there are a lot of variations in that amp and with enough fiddling, I can find something. Not like the old ones, though, where there wasn't a bad setting anywhere.
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LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Harlow Dobro |
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Tim Marcus
From:
San Francisco, CA
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Justin Griffith
From:
Taylor, Texas, USA
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Posted 21 Mar 2012 5:56 am
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Lynn,
Sorry I could not find a seat for you to use while in Austin. I really did try.....
I have an old (71) Fender Dual Showman Reverb amp (Twin Reverb chassis in a head cabinet) I bought on the recommendation of Ricky Davis and Jim Lutz. I have had it several years and it is fine. I use it with one or two D-130's.
When I first got it I was able to break it up a little if I pushed it too hard. One trip to my now deceased friend Jon at Tonecraft amps in Austin took care of that. I told him I was using it for steel and he just smiled and said, "I know just what you want" and he did!
He was perhaps the finest Fender amp guy in the world.
I tried a "reissue" with the 15" speaker and it was not even close to my ears. I have heard others use them and do fine. I would suggest to anyone wanting one to try it out first.
Good Luck.
Justin
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Emmons/Sho~Bud/Blanton, Fender/Peavey.
Telonics pedal |
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Dave O'Brien
From:
Florida and New Jersey
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Posted 21 Mar 2012 6:06 am Twin Reverb
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I have an early 65 Twin Reverb Amp that has given me no trouble and I prefer it for larger venues or when I plug a dobro or banjo in the first channel. Sure I had a 73 with JBL's (100+ lbs?) that kicked butt back in the day but that was then...
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Dave O'Brien
Emmons D-10, CMI D-10, Fender Deluxe Reverb, PV 112, Fender Pro Reverb
www.myspace.com/daveobrienband |
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Lynn Kasdorf
From:
Waterford Virginia, USA
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Posted 21 Mar 2012 6:10 am
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Justin- no worries- thanks for looking for a seat. It turns out that our drummer Timmy Campbell had a spare seat to loan me. Worked great.
I have a great book: "Tube Talk for Guitar Players and Techs" - or something like that - by Gerald Weber. It has a chapter about how to mod a tube amp for steel guitar. I suspect that if you do some of these mods, it will help a lot, as your late friend Jon knew.
Regarding my bad experience with the TR, I just remembered that when I was there the next day, the sound guy noted that one of the tone knobs was loose and just spinning on the pot shaft- it may have been the mid- and this could explain some of the problems I was having...
On all the other gigs I was pretty darn happy with the sound I got from a 3 lb MB200 amp into a 15" SICA speaker...
_________________
"You call that thing a guitar?" |
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Justin Griffith
From:
Taylor, Texas, USA
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Posted 21 Mar 2012 6:51 am
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Lynn,
Glad it worked out buddy.
Glad to hear you liked the SICA speaker. You liking it makes me more willing to try it.
Holler if you get down here again. We can get together if I am not working.
Best,
justin
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Emmons/Sho~Bud/Blanton, Fender/Peavey.
Telonics pedal |
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Tom Wolverton
From:
Carpinteria, CA
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 21 Mar 2012 10:32 am
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i've tried new and old twins and can't use them. maybe at very low volume for rehearsal you can get a sweet sound, but not a real gig. too thin, too bright, too weird....no problems at all wiith an LTD400.
.....get a cheap peavey and be happy.... |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 22 Mar 2012 3:45 pm
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"I fussed and fussed and never did get a tone that was even close to acceptable."
"...too thin, too bright, too weird..."
"It was really nasal and midrangey."
"It seemed to be lacking in bottom. I tried every combination I could think of, including brite switch on and off."
Well, with all due respect, whenever I hear these types of comments, I really think that those who are complaining don't know how amp controls work. Okay, here again (for the ump-teenth time) is how to get a "fat" sound (decent bass with rounded tone and good separation) from most amps...Fenders, Peaveys, tube or solid state...you name it - anything with a MID control. Turn down the mids!. How much? well, start with them ALL THE WAY OFF. Now turn up the bass up - about 3/4 of the way, and then turn the treble down to about 1/4 to 1/3 of its range. These settings will give you maximum "fat sound", almost always, with all the bass you want. Of course, if you want even more bass, turn it up all the way (which is what I normally do), and then dial in your tone with the treble knob. Should you find the bass gets too "woofy", gently add a litle mids, but never more than 1/3 of the range of the mid knob.
At least a dozen times, I've done this to players' amps when they complained of "no body, no fullness, no bass", and almost every time, their jaws drop when they hear a tone out of their amp with a fullness and richness they've never heard before. 
As far as the BRITE switch goes, I can give you two helpful hints. Number one: It doesn't do squat for the midrange, as it's designed (on most amps) not to function below about 3khz (the "high" end of the treble). Number two: If you have the treble turned way up, you'll find the BRITE switch doesn't do much of anything. It's biggest effect is realized when the treble control is set fairly low.
Twin Reverbs are pretty good amps, I've still got a couple, and have probably played through 50 of them, and every model they've made. But most lack suitable power for pedal steel, at least for my tastes. Dialing the controls for maximum fullness (as I've indicated above) robs them of a lot of volume. But then again, that's true for any amp with passive controls. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 22 Mar 2012 4:40 pm
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For those of you that don't know - Donny knows his stuff. I have never regretted paying careful attention to what he says, and I completely agree with what he says here. You gotta turn the knobs, and don't assume you know what's gonna work before you start - but I think his advice on where to start is spot-on.
On reissues vs. old hand-wire Fenders: my take - get the old hand-wired Fender, for a lot of reasons including sound and especially reliability and serviceability. The reissues can work, but I think it's generally possible to find a perfectly good silverface example for the same money or, in the case of a Twin Reverb, even less. |
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Lynn Kasdorf
From:
Waterford Virginia, USA
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Posted 22 Mar 2012 4:40 pm
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Donny- that is exactly what I did. Mid control off. Bass max, treble 1/2, brite on. This basic approach has worked when playing through a deluxe that I use at Hill Country BBQ, and pretty much any amp.
Something about this twin- I couldn't get enough bottom, even with it maxed and the mids off.
Unfortunately there was very little time to mess with it- we had to play. I tried things as best I could between songs and never got it.
_________________
"You call that thing a guitar?" |
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Asa Brosius
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Posted 22 Mar 2012 9:43 pm
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My advice would be not to give up on the Twin- I'd say get your own, learn to use it, and keep it until you can't carry it. Think of it as a necessary phase in your musical life- you're bound to come across them in backline situations, they're ubiquitous and well known by techs, easy to work on (at least the older point-to-point versions), and I and many others think they sound fantastic with PSG. Although it seems your situation didn't allow for this, time and at least one other pair of ears are so helpful in getting objective with sound. I have a 73' 2x12 which I love, and I've been able to work a good sound out of a reissue. It definitely took awhile to get there- a lot of knee- jerk reacting to ugly tone with a volume pedal and 100 tube watts makes for a strange, uneven live show!
All that said, I just had a similar and opposite experience-borrowed a friend's mb200/black box/ 15" cab rig for 4 shows last weekend ( because the twin was too big to travel with in this situation) and fell in love.
Asa |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 23 Mar 2012 6:24 am
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I'm a big fan of old Twins. I do not like the new ones at all.
My tone setting on a 1970 silver face twin is
brite off
treble 4
mids 9 or 10
bass 3
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Bob |
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Michael Johnstone
From:
Sylmar,Ca. USA
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Posted 24 Mar 2012 5:37 pm
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| I'm a long time fan of Fender tube amps and spent most of my pro guitar playing years with blackface Bandmasters,Supers,Showmans and Twins. But for pedal steel they just don't have the EQ needed to sculpt the mids to my taste. I carry one of those old blue MXR 10 band graphic EQs for those occasions I find myself playing steel thru a Twin and it will solve that problem real well. I recommend any traveling steel player keep a stompbox sized EQ stashed in his or her pac-a-seat. |
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Peter Coccorese
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 25 Mar 2012 2:53 pm
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| New to pedal but playing guitar 45+ years. Twins are very clean, very loud amps that should work well for pedal. That being said: you never know what you're running into when using someone else's amp (especially the "house" amp). What speakers are in it? What tubes? How old (shot) are they? Personally, I'd always bring along a trusty amp. Even if it stays in the car you know you can get the sound you want if the house amp sucks. |
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Ben Feher
From:
Austin TX
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Posted 25 Mar 2012 3:30 pm
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| Peter Coccorese wrote: |
| you never know what you're running into when using someone else's amp (especially the "house" amp). What speakers are in it? What tubes? How old (shot) are they? |
I'm sure a twin with its speakers wired out of phase would sound terrible. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 25 Mar 2012 4:02 pm
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| Ben Feher wrote: |
I'm sure a twin with its speakers wired out of phase would sound terrible. |
Up close, it would sound kinda funky. But out in the audience, there might be very little negative effect, depending on what sound you're shooting for. A lot depends on amp placement and room acoustics, and on what other EFX are being used. Phase changes are a tricky thing, but we have to remember that many EFX units (choruses, flangers, phasers) all work on the phase-shift principle. |
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Whip Lashaway
From:
Monterey, Tenn, USA
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Posted 25 Mar 2012 6:33 pm
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I bought a 72 Twin that just would not give me the sound I was looking for. I ended up changing the tone stack and modifying the amp with a mid range boost that basically changed the mid knob from 1-10 to 5-15. That was the key for me. I now am able to achieve the tone I'm after. I also modified the reverb so it works with chan one. Great sounding amp now. I did leave chan two completely original for any of my lead guitar playing buddy's that want to use it.
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Whip Lashaway
Sierra E9/B6 12 string
Sierra E9/B6 14 string
Excel S12 8x9 blue
Excel S12 8x9 black |
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Adam Sorber
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 28 Mar 2012 5:36 am
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I never had any problems with a backline-provided twin other than them breaking up if you get on'em too much.
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Adam Sorber
Sho Bud PROII custom D-10
Sho Bud PROII custom SD-10
Fender Super Twin Reverb
Fender Ultra-linear Twin Reverb |
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Ransom Beers
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Posted 28 Mar 2012 1:25 pm
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| I bought a new 65 re-issue one time.Was at a jam one night & it just quit,took it to an authorized dealer,come to find out it was the speaker wire,they replaced it & it honked big time,course I was playing a Tele at the time but I'm sure my BSG would have sounded great through it. |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 28 Mar 2012 3:09 pm
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Did any of you guys ever consider the fact that Fender amps were designed to operate with guitar pickups that were wound from 4 to perhaps 8 K.. Guys are running pickups at 18-21 K, and ramming massive signal into a pre amp that wasn't designed to handle it.. old steels sound incredible through Fenders because the pickups weren't the line transformers guys are using these days... Everyone used Fenders back in the day, and I mean everyone... Fenders sound bad for steel??.
Funny,,,,
Brumley, Greene, Monney, never sounded bad using Fenders... bob
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I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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