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Author Topic:  moving pedals on MSA - undercarriage picture and part names
Andy Keen


From:
Oregon, USA
Post  Posted 25 Dec 2011 12:25 pm    
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Hey folks,
My A pedal is too far left on my MSA Classic (70's model). I want to move it over one spot. I'd like to ask for the forum's help identifying the parts I labeled in the photo.

I can't figure out how to get part (B.) off there. I think I need to unscrew the rail thing (part A.). Any advice for this procedure is welcome.

I'm also curious what tools should I buy? I think I need some allan wrenches that I don't have (4+ sets and no luck).

I love this guitar and it's great. I wish they would build everything else to last like this! Thanks for looking and happy holidays.

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Lynn Stafford


From:
Oregon City, Oregon, USA
Post  Posted 25 Dec 2011 12:53 pm     MSA Pedal Revision
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Hi Andy,

Merry Christmas to you and yours!

I'd like to help you figure out a way to make your guitar more comfortable for you to play. I'm off this coming week, so why don't we try to get together? Please give me a call and we'll figure out a time that's convenient for us.
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Andy Keen


From:
Oregon, USA
Post  Posted 25 Dec 2011 1:12 pm    
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Sure thing, Lynn. I have tomorrow off, so I'll give you a call then.

I really want to figure out how to work on this myself so I can experiment. Are there any good books, videos or other materials on the subject? I found an old forum post that had a link to an MSA manual hosted on the carter site, but the link is broken.

I could just tear into it but I don't want to break (or strip) anything.
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Lane Gray


From:
Topeka, KS
Post  Posted 25 Dec 2011 1:37 pm    
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if you pull off the back skirt, you will see how to remove the cross rods.
What you want to do is not difficult, but it will be time consuming.
Lily is a good guy, I'm sure he will show you how. you will need a handful of allen wrenches. And a stock pile of swear words, bet you learned all of those learning to play this thing
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Andy Keen


From:
Oregon, USA
Post  Posted 25 Dec 2011 1:47 pm    
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HAHA. Yes Lane, and my vast repertoire of swear words is in sharp contrast with my repertoire of steel songs.
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Brian Henry


Post  Posted 25 Dec 2011 5:10 pm     Thank you for posting that picture - it has already helped
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Hi Andy, I made a new body for my MSA and need a favor. Looking at your picture, could you tell me the clearance between the bottom of "A" and the top of "F" It looks like 1/8" but I would appreciate hearing from you. My orginal body was destroyed and I don't have it any more. Perhaps a 25 cent piece would fit in there.

Regards,

Brian
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Richard Sinkler


From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Oakdale, California
Post  Posted 25 Dec 2011 5:49 pm    
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Quote:
vast repertoire of swear words


The most used tool in PSG repair.
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Lane Gray


From:
Topeka, KS
Post  Posted 25 Dec 2011 6:19 pm    
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1 word of advice: do the work in a room with a hard floor, not a carpet. if you choose to use a carpeted room, order some barrels from michael Yahl.
There is a reason he sells them in groups of 5
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Tom Wolverton


From:
Carpinteria, CA
Post  Posted 25 Dec 2011 6:58 pm    
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When you move the pedals one position to the right, don't you also have to move the left knee levers a bit to the right? But maybe about half as much as the pedals?
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Andy Keen


From:
Oregon, USA
Post  Posted 25 Dec 2011 7:21 pm    
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Brian: the space between F and A in the picture is ust a smidge bigger than 1/8". Call it 5/32nd of an inch.

Tom Wolverton wrote:
When you move the pedals one position to the right, don't you also have to move the left knee levers a bit to the right? But maybe about half as much as the pedals?


Well, actually I want to keep the levers where they're at. currently the two left-knee levers aren't snug to my knee, like I suppose some others' are set up. My issue is the placement of the pedals. I was told by one player that he puts b-pedal where his left leg is centered, but my 3 pedals are two full "spots" to the left of that. I just want to split the difference here and move them all over 1 space. Curious to know how other players have their pedals relative to the center of their left knee in playing position. Centered over the C-pedal maybe?
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Lane Gray


From:
Topeka, KS
Post  Posted 25 Dec 2011 7:26 pm    
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Tom Wolverton wrote:
When you move the pedals one position to the right, don't you also have to move the left knee levers a bit to the right? But maybe about half as much as the pedals?


Not, IMO, on the MSA. If the knees live at the same place as the D-10, it'd be most comfortable using pedal positions 3, 4, & 5.

When I got my D-10, I'd thought about hanging a set of levers for the C6 neck, but think it's most comfy making those three work on both necks.

IMO, the weight and knee lever placement are the only drawbacks to my Classic. The LKL is around P4 and the LKR around P6.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects


Last edited by Lane Gray on 26 Dec 2011 5:58 am; edited 2 times in total
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Tom Wolverton


From:
Carpinteria, CA
Post  Posted 25 Dec 2011 7:31 pm    
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When you move the pedals one position to the right, don't you also have to move the left knee levers a bit to the right? But maybe about half as much as the pedals?
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Ron Wright


From:
Modesto,CA
Post  Posted 25 Dec 2011 7:49 pm    
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Andy, as far as allen wrenches I would go to a hardware store and get a set of Ball Drivers, yellow packs are standard size, the ball end of the allen lets you get to the allen screw at an angle
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Bo Borland


From:
South Jersey -
Post  Posted 26 Dec 2011 9:44 am    
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You should not have to remove A, (pedal stop bar) to remove the cross rods (B) but you will have to remove the pull rods from the brass barrels and pull fingers (C) and the small return spring.
That's a pretty creative way to fix the pull tab on the pedal crank too. They are still available and since they are attached with an expansion pin, you can probably repair them .. also inspect all the brass barrels, especially on the knee levers for wear..
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Lane Gray


From:
Topeka, KS
Post  Posted 26 Dec 2011 1:26 pm    
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C normally goes by the name bell crank. As you'll soon see, everything will have to come off the crossrod to get it out of the guitar. I'd recommend making a rodding chart (Just like a copedent, but use letters to denote which hole in the bellcrank the rod was in, usually A closest to the shaft and D farthest, and numbers for the changer holes, I'd start with 1 closest to the neck).
I'd reuse the current B and C pedal rods in their current shafts, just moving the bellcranks to the right places. That way you only need to pull 1 crossrod.
Hopefully your pedal bar has extra pedal mounts. Otherwise you'll have to move the pedal mount down three as well.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects
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Andy Keen


From:
Oregon, USA
Post  Posted 26 Dec 2011 10:22 pm    
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Lane Gray wrote:

I'd reuse the current B and C pedal rods in their current shafts, just moving the bellcranks to the right places. That way you only need to pull 1 crossrod.


Just a quick update. Lynn just got done doing exactly that Lane. He also explained everything along the way! I'm very grateful for his help, and all of yours here too, so thanks! I'm excited to order some experimental stuff now too. No more problems so I guess I have to make up some new ones to fix.

As far as playability, I'm so much happier with this setup. My clearance over the B-pedal when hitting A+F position is no longer an issue. I know I could have changed the pedal height and messed with the levers, but moving the pedals makes it so much more comfortable It's also helped with my Bpedal/e-lever 7th position as well (my leg slants a lot less).

Also, Lynn's rebuilt Emmons guitars are very beautiful, great craftsmanship!
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Tom Wolverton


From:
Carpinteria, CA
Post  Posted 29 Dec 2011 6:51 am    
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Isn't the MSA a joy to work on? It is a nicely engineered design. My only wish would be for a two-part puller design so you could add or remove pulls without having to remove the cross-shaft. That would be nice.
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Lane Gray


From:
Topeka, KS
Post  Posted 29 Dec 2011 7:40 am    
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The rest of the world has discovered square crossrods, which make adding/moving bellcranks a snap.
My Zum has these, but with the spring pin riding in slots on the bellcrank, you can only move them around on the same shaft, unless you have a die of that size, which I don't.
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Mark Fasbender


Post  Posted 8 Jan 2012 3:23 am     yep
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i moved the pedals over on my d-10. not that bad.move them to the changer end starting w pedal 10, moving it to towards the changer 1 spot etc.that way you have a better chance at gettin it done correctly. one crosshaft at a time. the levers on classics are fixed, thats why the pedals need to go towards the changer. my ankles arent flexible enough lol.
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Mark Fasbender


Post  Posted 8 Jan 2012 3:31 am    
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i guess in ur case, start with the C pedal.once you remove the alum plate from the rear apron it will make more sense.
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Lane Gray


From:
Topeka, KS
Post  Posted 8 Jan 2012 4:58 am    
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Why would you start with C? There's no need to move all three. Do like I suggested above (and like the OP said Lynn did), moving the A crossrod rod down to P4 slot, where it becomes the new C pedal, merely moving the P3 bellcranks to become the new B pedal, and p2 becomes the new A.
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More amps than guitars, and not many effects
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Mark Fasbender


Post  Posted 8 Jan 2012 4:40 pm    
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i would clean and relube while i was there. removing all 3,1 at a time would only take a couple more minutes and you could do a thorough job. or u could move a to the new c and just move bellcranks around. whatever. they r so easy to work on that it hardly matters. its not a bad idea to take it all apart and use a little anti seize on the steel to aluminum thread contacts.keeps the stuff alive and allows you to tghten it better. imho
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Paul McEvoy


From:
Baltimore, USA
Post  Posted 12 May 2019 6:39 am    
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7 years later...

I just got an MSA classic 12 string in extended e9 with 4 pedals currently and would like to do the same thing. I was wondering about how long you'd budget to do this job?

Not supposing there's anyone near Baltimore, MD who I could pay to do it...

I think the copedent is moderately non-standard too. This being my first guitar, I'd like to have it somewhere near normalish. But I guess there's a lot of copedents out there.
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Lane Gray


From:
Topeka, KS
Post  Posted 12 May 2019 6:52 am    
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If you find Hagerstown close enough, you could bring it to me on the appropriate Tuesday or Thursday, and I'd take it home to Topeka and work on it and return it when done. I drive truck and often go to Hagerstown, but just long enough to drop and hook. I could loan you an extended E9th 5&5 during the time I've got yours.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects
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Paul McEvoy


From:
Baltimore, USA
Post  Posted 26 May 2019 3:33 pm    
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Thanks Lane. I might give it a shot myself.

My 4th pedal has a half stop thing. Is that harder to move?

I was thinking I could move pedal 4 to 5 and then 1 to 4 to preserve the double stop.
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