Pedal Steel Guitars: Closet or Craigslist?

Gordon Hartin · From: Durham, NC

I grew up around vintage guitars. At the time, they were not really considered vintage, just the guitars my dad has. 60 Les Paul Custom, 63 Strat, 67 Tele, 47 Martin...These were the guitars my dad gigged with, and they were around the house. So I played them, friends played them, they were just the guitars in the living room. At the time we all would have rather had a Kramer with a skull on it with a floyd rose...times change.

One thing my dad told me, and still does is hold on to your gear. I started playing steel in 2000, I had a GFI student for 4 months then traded it for a 75 sho-bud pro 3, still have it , then in 2005 got a 81 super pro, have it also. Both great steels, and really it probably took me a few years until I could even tell the difference in a steels playability. Currently both of these steels now sit in their cases, I never took interest in C6th, they are heavy, and have a couple Rains SD10s now.

So, after reading the forum for a few years, there are not many steels that surpass the price of a new steel compared to guitars. A 2011 D28 Martin is way cheaper than 1960 D28 Martin. Bigsby's seem to be the vintage exception, and for modern steels Franklin's usually sell more than their original price.

Do you think there will be a vintage steel market in 20 years, or is steel so much of a niche instrument that the value is more nostalgia for most of us.

Gordon Hartin

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

So spraketh Slim Lovin':

"There will always be someone playing the vintage ShoBud and Emmons Push-Pull guitars. There will be other sounds, other mechanisms, all of them "superior" in some way, but somebody is always gonna want to stick with the axe that has a history of making great music when it is time to play..."

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

60's PP Emmons, particularly certain years and models sell for twice as much or more than the original cost. The SS and XL models of MSA command a greater price generally than sold for.

Same with certain ZB's, Sho-Buds, Zums, etc. Old Fenders and Gibsons as well. Even lap steels.

Certainly not to the obscene levels of what are considered vintage standard guitars, like '58 LP's or 52 Broadcasters, but they're getting up there and likely not going down in value.

The question I have to ask myself is how long do I have to hang on to one in order to make it worthwhile? I only care about what the value is to me, not some collector.

If there's someone you want to leave them to as a legacy and for future growth of value, that might be different, but I doubt you'll see an appreciation on any grand scale for pedal steels in your lifetime, but then again I don't your age....and who knows, really? Maybe Bigsbys, but they're so rare. That's my opinion.

Gordon Hartin · From: Durham, NC

Jerry,

You are right, some steels cost more than their original price, but there are not many older steels that cost more than a modern brand new steel, except for Franklins at the moment. A used Franklin, which is a modern era steel, on the forum usually sells for more than the price of most new steels.

Gordon

Lyle Clary · From: Decatur, Illinois, KC9VCB

So you are advising me to hang on to my 1969 ZB, 1981 Emmons p/p and 2006 Zum instead of buying gold?
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2006 Zum D10 8x8,1969 ZB Custom D10,
10 3x4 Peavey Nashville 112 Peavey LTD 400 2014 Zum Encore Wood Grain 4x5 Stage One pot pedal

George Geisser · From: Branson, Missouri, USA

A lot of people still think that a five fold increase of "Dollar Value" on a house they bought, lived in for twenty plus years and then sold, is making good!! Could it be that the "dollar" is worth a fraction in value? You can't eat Gold, but a can of beans at any cost still makes a meal!

Jerome Hawkes · From: Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA

With the exception of Bigsby, wraparound Emmons, and Franklins, no pedal steel has "held it's value" adjusted for inflation dollars. The cost of a new Emmons / Bud in the late 60's was around $900 - they would need to be selling for $5-6k in today's $ just to break even.

Of course, no one can predict out 20 years - in the early 90s you could still buy Bigsbys for $1000. And I recall seeing a '65 emmons ad in the Nashville classifeds for $800 in 1992 - so it's really only been in the last 10 years that they have shot up.

When I lived in Nashville in the early 90's nobody wanted anything cable driven, or a p/p - it was totally an all pull movement then - that's how Bobbe probably bought all those steels for peanuts.
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'65 Sho-Bud D-10 Permanent • '54 Fender Dual-8 • Clinesmith T-8 • '38 Ric Bakelite • '92 Emmons D-10 Legrande II

Dave Hopping · From: Aurora, Colorado

I lean much more towards the closet than CL,but there's something of a downside,as shown in the thread "Unusual Vintage Zane Beck and Fender 400".Your heirs may not know as much as you do about instruments you're holding as investments.Good idea to leave a note in the case saying what's what.

Per Berner · From: SkÃ¶vde, Sweden

If you look at the demographics of steel players, I bet more than 50% of today's owners will be quite dead from old age 20 years from now; another 25 % too old to play actively, and not that many new, younger players added. So I predict a future market flooded with old pedal steels – instruments that only a few buyers will be interested in. And we all know how such conditions affect prices. So if you're planning to make money from your old PSG – prepare to step off in the very near future. Excepting a few unique items, of course. Thats my guess, YMMV.

Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

Another factor in the value of older guitars is that many of them don't have enough floor pedals or knee levers. 4 or 5 on the floor and 5 or 6 knees is becoming standard for S10's and many D-10's are going for 9 on the floor and 6 to 8 knees. I don't think this is overkill. These chnages are useful and can modernize the sounds you are able to get. The cost of adding pedal and knee levers to an older guitar and the risk of having non-original parts on it, affecting the resale value, scares some people off.

Some of the newer guitars have better mechanics built in (these can be added to older guitars of course). They also have more compact bodies and a more contempory appearance.

Greg

Dave Hopping · From: Aurora, Colorado

Holding durable goods as an investment is as much a crapshoot as shooting craps,and no one knows what will be considered valuable in the future.
About ten years ago,a friend asked me to store his beat-up,non-working,utterly worthless Danelectro DM-25,and I left it covered up in an unheated shed for probably seven years.Two or three years ago I took it in to see if it was repairable.It was,and for not very much,so I went ahead and had the work done,mostly because I can't stand to see gear neglected.By the time I got it back(my amp guy is kinda Zen about time)DM-25s were going up in spite of the recession.I'd never have thought a DM-25 would be worth anything,but it is.

Here's another piece currently considered to have as much value as Confederate money did in 1890.I can't decide whether I really think it'll do something or if I'm a closet hoarder....Naaah,it's an investment-the closet's too full Shocked

EDIT:
OK,those are amps,not steels,so I'm a bit guilty of hijacking.Sorry...I'd think that PSGs will likely not have the kind of quick,dramatic increase in value that pre-CBS six-strings and amps did,but I do think that over the next five or six decades they probably will have the same kind of appreciation in value as historical/cultural artifacts that we've seen in,for example,budget instruments and amps from the Thirties to the early Fifties.

Mark Dershaw · From: Arizona and Ohio

Collectors tend to drive up prices on vintage guitars and amps. I would venture to guess that a good portion of those 50's and 60's peices are held by collectors and many of them don't even play! I don't feel that there'll ever be an audience of collectors interested in owning a vintage steel guitar. Maybe if the guitar was owned by a famous player who played for a famous artist, but that's about it. No... us steel players are the only ones interested in these contraptions! In my mind, that's a good thing. I've always considered it a shame that so many guitar players that would love to own an old gem simply can't afford it. As steel players, we really have the option of owning the vintage guitar of our choice at a reasonable price. When was the last time you saw a vintage Emmons or Sho Bud go for 30 or 40 thousand!!

Adam Goodale · From: Pflugerville, TX

Personally, im in love with vintage Emmons Push Pulls... the way they play, sound, and look. I want to own as many of them as i can. Does that make me a collector? maybe, but on the same hand im a player, i gig several times a week, and I primarily use Push-Pulls on my gigs. I'm only 22 years old. I have 2 push pulls, simply because i dont make enough to purchase 10 more of them. Here is my question to ya'll, in 30 years, when i am in my 50's, where do you see the value of these guitars being at. The demand for these will have Shrunk, because sadly, the amount of players is decreasing. Excellent thread Gordon.
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Dave Hopping · From: Aurora, Colorado

John Scanlon · From: Jackson, Mississippi, USA

Craig's List .... so the rest of us can have a shot at owning one!
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Gordon Hartin · From: Durham, NC

Time to let them go. They both are great guitars.

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=209302

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=209305

Gordon

Luke Schneider · From: Nashville

Just thought i'd touch on the discussion here.

I understand the sentimental value guitars can have to people. I own a few that I will never sell. However, I've always believed that there comes a time when we should be honest with ourselves about whether or not we will actually use an instrument or piece of gear. And if I know deep down that I won't be playing/using something, I make a conscious decision to sell it.

I just feel better knowing that I passed on an instrument to what is likely a better home. And with specific regards to those early p/p's and buds, A LOT of TLC went into the design and manufacturing, and assembly of those instruments. The universe deserves to play them, hear them, enjoy them. One of those guitars could change a young player's life.

I personally don't like the idea of keeping non-essential guitars in a closet as a monetary investment. As I said before, I'll keep a few sentimental guitars until the day I die, like many others would. But they'll never be packed away in a case in a closet.

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

Outside of historical and brand value, a steel guitar of any design and age can be reverse engineered, copied, cloned and manufactured to as good or better quality than prior era's, and with more repeatability on the quality...Cnc machines, etc.

Take the prospect of a significantly more sophisticated musical instrument...tonewheel hammond organs...in today's terms, the manufactured cost of one of these would be as much as a mid entry automobile, in the 25 to 40k range. The most popular vintage models, B3's and C3's sell for 2000 to 6000 bucks. My RT3 is a more featured but lesser known version of these and I got mine for 250... This is the best analogy I can think of for a manufacturable instrument in a diminishing market.

Old tube amplifiers are another example. As soon as vintage marshall amps started getting up to the price of what it would cost to make equivalent quality, eg. handwired with top end components, about fifty boutique amp manufacturers started up to manufacture clones. The price range is 2000...and often sell for less than the cost of inferior mass produced products from brand name manufacturers.

Modern manufacturing capability will keep a cap on used prices of vintage gear, and pedal steel is at root a machine. Musicians buy musical instruments, not museum pieces. As soon as someone can make a living out of cloning vintage technology, it will be on the market.

But don't sell on craigslist, sell on the steel guitar forum where there is broader exposure to the psg community.

George Seymour · From: Notown, Vermont, USA

George Seymour · From: Notown, Vermont, USA

Gene Jones · From: Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)

I agree with many of the above posts.

I sold my original purchased 1949 Fender three neck to a player who I believed would respect it's history with Conway Twitty, and to my best knowledge he still displays it in his music room.
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"FROM THEN TIL' NOW"

Ron Randall · From: Dallas, Texas, USA

Yes, I do!

steve takacs · From: beijing, china via pittsburgh (deceased)

One thing not to forget is that if young musicians in countries like China continue to get richer, the drop in quantity demanded for steels may just reverse. In the past few decades a young group has gotten into 6 string guitar and among other brands they are buying US brands like Gibson Guild, Fender etc. These tend to be new and there is not much of a second hand market yet but if there is, look out. Does the work "Japan" ring a bell. They are also more costly than in the USA.

As for pedal steel, it has not caught on in Beijing yet, in spite of the huge rise of the internet among the young. In part that is because steels have not been available, nor can they be seen in music clubs (excepting my Stage One or Kline every now and then). There are three Americans that I know who have pedal steels here (If Pete Conklin has his guitar here now) and two of those guys have only recently arrived.. After Christmas, a German Forum member, Martin Abend, will add to that total. So, with four steel players among the 16 million people in Bejing, one might say pedal steel has been underexposed.

In the last three years you would not believe the number of foreign high priced autos that have been purchased in Beijing. I should shoot some photos of these just in a several block area around my home.

I feel if younger players have the funds and see a steel first hand, those closet guitars may be finding their way out of those closets and moving abroad. Just my opinion. stevet

Bud Angelotti · From: Larryville, NJ, USA

"60 Les Paul Custom, 63 Strat, 67 Tele, 47 Martin...These were the guitars my dad gigged with, and they were around the house. So I played them, friends played them, they were just the guitars in the living room"
They still are Gordon! You didn't sell 'em yet right?
Sometimes the music bug skips a generation or two. Keep 'em in the family!! Unless you really need the $$, they are priceless.
I will never sell my 71 D35. Got it for Xmas. New. priceless. I have no kids to give it to, but just imagine for a moment if you "found" your great grandpas violin. It's priceless, even if it's junk.
Waxing nostalgic here tonight. Sleep tight. Smile

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Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

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