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Author Topic:  An essential missing piece in E9 instruction
Igor Fiksman


From:
Georgia, USA
Post  Posted 3 Aug 2010 5:56 pm    
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Hello everybody. As most members of this esteemed forum, I spend a large chunk of my life trying to tame the wild beast which is PSG. I've had many positive breakthroughs, and my fair share of disappointing fallbacks. As many of the members out there I don't live in the area where there is steel guitar instruction available, so I am doing my learning through the books by the likes of Winnie Winston, Jeff Newman and great and in-depth online help from the likes of Mickie Adams, Greg Cutshaw etc. Every piece of information out there is brilliant and helpful, but I find one thing really missing. It seams to me that associating specific techniques, changes and licks with specific well known songs and players that used them masterfully and recognizably would help beginners tremendously in understanding the real purpose of all these gadgets, string positions, blocking, picking and bar techniques. All beginners quickly grasp the idea of using familiar grips (10-8-6, 8-6-5, 6-5-4 etc.) and your basic AB pedal use to go from 1 to 4 to 5. But most struggle for a long time to understand the true purpose of the top 2 strings, strings 9, 7 , pedal C, knee levers and combinations thereoff. So I would like to propose a following format(I'll make a first post after this) for adding this helpful info, I would certainly appreciate any input, even if someone wants to tell me it's an awful idea and I should be shot for trying to subvert a traditional way to learn.
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Igor Fiksman


From:
Georgia, USA
Post  Posted 3 Aug 2010 5:59 pm    
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Technique: using E to F lever
Originator: Lloyd Green
Prominent example of use: Tammy Wynette's D-I-V-O-R-C-E intro
Youtube link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9J7XE-ctMU&feature=related
(first 5 seconds)
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Ben Jones


From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
Post  Posted 3 Aug 2010 6:42 pm    
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16---13---16
16---13---16
16---13---16
AF---------AF
strings 3,4,5
F raises your E's

hope thtas right for the lick in the vid. I like learning others licks, especially on tunes I know.
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Pete Burak

 

From:
Portland, OR USA
Post  Posted 3 Aug 2010 7:07 pm    
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Hey you guys know about this?...
Scroll down to the "LISTINGS OF PEDAL STEEL INTROS, TURN-AROUNDS AND BREAKS BY YEAR" at the bottom.
Tons of Tabs incorporating the basic E9th changes:
http://users.interlinks.net/rebel/steel/steel.html
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Igor Fiksman


From:
Georgia, USA
Post  Posted 3 Aug 2010 8:31 pm    
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Hi, thanks for the replies. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear ( very common for me Smile ). I know about the great collection of tabs and audio clips on that site, and have used it to get me out of some pickles. And I wasn't looking for a tab for the song.
I am simply asking folks to start a thread of prominent audio and video examples of the practical application of different techniques, pedal and lever applications and so on. The idea is - if you hear or see the use of a specific technique in a song you're familiar with - it's easier to understand how to incorporate that technique into your own playing.
Experienced players can do this by ear, they hear a song and can tell (..A-ha, he's using his F lever to do that lick..), but beginners don't have a way to make that reference. That's why I'm asking forumites to contribute some prominent examples of use of different techniques. An audio or video example is worth a thousand tabs so to speak. Hope this makes more sense now.
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Ian Miller


From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
Post  Posted 3 Aug 2010 9:25 pm    
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Pete Burak wrote:
Hey you guys know about this?...
Scroll down to the "LISTINGS OF PEDAL STEEL INTROS, TURN-AROUNDS AND BREAKS BY YEAR" at the bottom.
Tons of Tabs incorporating the basic E9th changes:
http://users.interlinks.net/rebel/steel/steel.html


Thanks, Brother Pete! I doubt I'll be using the tabs (it's just easier for me to fish for the notes), but having all those clips at my disposal is super-cool! Smile
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Ben Jones


From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
Post  Posted 4 Aug 2010 5:54 am    
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Igor it mades sense the first time. I just thought that if your gonna tell a beginner "heres an example of how to use the F lever", you might wanna give em the tab so they arent going "what? where? F lever when where how?". I understand YOU werent looking for the tab, but I bet the beginners were.In other words the video or audio example of a known technique is a great way to learn, but more info is needed for the beginner in my opinion.

the rebel ricky site, mickey adams youtube vids and the forum tab section are the holy trinity of beginners freebie materials. they'd be some of the first resources I'd show a beginner.

what i think is missing (or not presented clealy enough) is just simply laying out the pedal positions on day one. NP>AF>AB. People do eventually lay it out but they convolute the message too much in my opinion and wait too long into the lessons to share the basic E9th positions. The simplicity and basic functionality of those three positions needs to be emphasised and explained from the start. Its what Id show someone on day one after the basic grips.

The lick in the first post isnt really an example of how to use the F lever, because you are really using the F lever AND A pedal in combo. Its more an example of the pedal positions. You are merely sliding from the AF to the NP position and back.
If you tell a beginner "listen to this lick, heres how to use the F lever" and provide no tab...I doubt they're gonna know about that A pedal and are gonna be a bit frustrated that they cant get that sound with just the F lever.
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Mickey Adams


From:
Bandera Texas
Post  Posted 4 Aug 2010 6:37 am    
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Igor...I read this..Ill chime in when I get back from flight training on Sunday and post you some ideas for B+C, ans strings 1+2..I think this is a great idea...Mick
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Jack Stoner


From:
Inverness, Fl
Post  Posted 4 Aug 2010 7:02 am    
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I don't think anything like you want has ever been published. There are "Emmons licks" or "Lloyd Green licks", etc but it's been mostly just word of mouth or occasionally someone will Tab out one of those licks.

I look at publications such as "Guitar Player" and there are always licks from the rock guitarists or electronic units such as Line 6 (POD) that feature amp modeling set up for a certain song by whatever rock band or guitarist. But there is never been anything like that for Pedal Steel Guitar.

I'm teaching (trying to teach Razz ) my wife pedal steel. Who did what lick is not part of the teaching.
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Ben Jones


From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
Post  Posted 4 Aug 2010 7:21 am    
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I think its a good idea. I just think you need either tab or at least an explanation of whats going on in addition to the lick presented via vid or audio.

This is a pretty common teaching technique for rock guitar.

Ive seen some steel instruction using this method also, but its seldom for beginners.
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Pete Burak

 

From:
Portland, OR USA
Post  Posted 4 Aug 2010 7:33 am    
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Ian Miller wrote:
Pete Burak wrote:
Hey you guys know about this?...
Scroll down to the "LISTINGS OF PEDAL STEEL INTROS, TURN-AROUNDS AND BREAKS BY YEAR" at the bottom.
Tons of Tabs incorporating the basic E9th changes:
http://users.interlinks.net/rebel/steel/steel.html


Thanks, Brother Pete! I doubt I'll be using the tabs (it's just easier for me to fish for the notes), but having all those clips at my disposal is super-cool! Smile


Glad to see you here, Ian!
Yeah Man, Those clips really put "what it's supposed to sound like" right in yer face!
Funn Stuff!

Hey I just did a You Tube seach for "BC pedals" and "F Lever", and several Steel Instructional vids came right up, including Mickey Adams stuff which is great.
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J D Sauser


From:
Puerto Plata, Dominican Republic.
Post  Posted 4 Aug 2010 8:00 am    
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Get Maurice Anderson's "The Missing Link" Course.
THAT's what you've been missing.

And, try to substitute tab with some of the youtube videos.


... J-D.
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Bryan Daste


From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
Post  Posted 4 Aug 2010 12:07 pm    
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Does The Missing Link course break down styles in this way? There's not much info about it on the website.
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J D Sauser


From:
Puerto Plata, Dominican Republic.
Post  Posted 4 Aug 2010 12:58 pm     Learn your neck in distance relationships ONCE & ALL cho
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The Missing link course does NOT discuss styles, nor does it teach you one single lick, not even half a lick.
BUT it will teach you how to "see" your fretboard and find ANY in ALL chords and inversions with ANY and ALL 3&2 pedal and lever combinations in ALL 12 keys... EASILY. It's so easy, when I took a sabbatical of almost 8 years from playing PSG, I could write here about chord positions and pedal-knee-lever-combinations with my eyes shut... not even owning a PSG. Once you got it, it's like having learned to ride a bike... you'll never forget it (much to the contrary of stuff you play off tablature!).

Here's a thread that is related where I posted a lot which is a result of Maurice's teachings (and just scratching the surface). Btw. without seeking to brag, when I wrote these posts in 2007, I had not owned a PSG for 6 years. Once you learn it that way, it will stick with you!
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=122247 (Btw. the "juicy" stuff comes on pages 2 and 3).
Btw, Maurice IS the teacher, I often find myself linguistically challenged to make my point clearly, so don't let my confuse efforts deter you from picking up Maurice's books. He knows how to explain that stuff.

The course will then also teach you how approach creating your own licks or find ways to play the ones you hear.

What it will not teach you (and it definitely should) is how to then properly and ecologically dispose of any tablature you'll have left, but I can tell you how! Smile Just send me an e-mail when you're ready and I'll send you the matches. Very Happy

Maurice Anderson is a very approachable person and marvelous teacher, I think you may feel free to contact him on the web site e-mail with any questions relative to his teaching material.

... J-D.
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Bryan Daste


From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
Post  Posted 4 Aug 2010 2:16 pm    
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Sounds interesting. From the website:
Quote:
"The Missing Link" course is a 64 page book which starts with the basics and continues to a professional level and features removable pages with transparency exercises. It also explains my foundation of the Interval (number) system and its advantages when applied to Pedal Steel Guitar. It comes with a 90 minute cassette tape to help you every step of the way.

Is the Interval number system similar to the Nashville system? Sorry, maybe we should start our own thread here!
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J D Sauser


From:
Puerto Plata, Dominican Republic.
Post  Posted 4 Aug 2010 5:23 pm    
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Bryan Daste wrote:
...
Is the Interval number system similar to the Nashville system? Sorry, maybe we should start our own thread here!


The "Nashville"-number system uses the principle of intervals to organize song's chord progressions in a key neutral manner. It's not an invention, nor really a system... it's an application of ancient knowledge.

Numbers, and for that "intervals" which by nature can only be described numerically, since they are DISTANCES, have been used since the concept and physical laws which govern music have been explored. Pythagoras, ever heard of this fella? Well, this fine gentleman did not hail from the great State of Tennessee Wink
Long before there was Do-Re-Mi... there was a breakup of "distances" which turned out to be a system of 12 (one of Pythagoras' pet peeves, anyways... the rule of TWELVES).
Even the so called standard musical theory can't exist without numbers, which again describe INTERVALS or, as some may prefer to snobbishly call it, degrees.

All this was invented, better... discovered LONG before James Robertson and John Donelson ever only considered founding Fort Nashborough. Wink

But yes, The Missing Link mentions the analogies and the applications of interval based musical applications and the so called Nashville number system. But if I remember right, it also reminds the student of it's real origins; Pythagoras, a man who almost invented the Pedal Steel Guitar! His bench testing experiment had strings spun over a soundboard and with weights attached to them on one side. He experimented with the longitudinal division as well as the change of tension (by changing the weights). He was THAT close! Very Happy


... J-D.
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J D Sauser


From:
Puerto Plata, Dominican Republic.
Post  Posted 4 Aug 2010 5:44 pm     Intervals, why not?
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Intervals, it's what you see!
Look at your guitar's fret board! What do you see? INTERVALS!
Check your changes! You may tune a pedal to raise a "B" to a "C#"... but when you move your bar along that string, what is the TRUE value of that change? TWO frets worth of it... it's again an interval!
What is the distance from one sting to the next? What is that value when you move your bar? The "notes" change constantly... but the interval remains the same, at every fret!
Why would you try to learn "names" when the can't be trusted... they change constantly. But your math remains the same, your formulas stay the same, and in ANY key!
That's not just true for progressions, but for the build up of chords, harmonies, melody lines, your tuning and your changes.

It's really also what you hear... it's how your brain organizes music. It's how your brain can recognize and catalog music it has never heard before. How if not, could you exclaim "oh, it's a blues song!" if you never heard it before, nobody told that it was intended to be a blues song, and you not even know the key it's in? Your brain recognizes not the notes, but the repeated patterns, the FORMULAS, clusters of distances... in what... yeah, you guessed it... in INTERVALS, otherwise, it would be deadlocked without knowing the key.

Why try to teach yourself a confuse, non-relational (not to say irrational) "system" based on a maze of "names" or off counting from your instrument's nut, WHAT EVER the key is... really, only a NUT could come up with such a "concept"! A "system" the brain has to learn to convert into it's own language... especially when it's a steel guitar which it screaming at it's player: "LOOK AT ME... just look at me, pleeez!"

Very Happy

... J-D.
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Bryan Daste


From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
Post  Posted 4 Aug 2010 6:12 pm    
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OK, names aside, how is this idea any different from the Nashville Number System, figured bass, or whatever else you might call it?
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Igor Fiksman


From:
Georgia, USA
Post  Posted 4 Aug 2010 6:16 pm    
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Valid points everyone. Ben, you're right about including the tab - that would be very helpful. But I'm still hoping to start a thread of examples of different techniques being used in well known songs.

Here's where I got this idea. A couple of years back, I was reading the Bio's of all the Steel Guitar Hall of Famers. Reading about Speedy West, I found that he was an originator of the Bar Crash technique. That intrigued me, I thought i've got to hear that Bar Crash Technique in action. But if you Google or Youtube "Bar Crash Technique", you'll likely just get a bunch of videos of John Wayne tossing cowboys through saloon doors. Even if you search the Forum, there are no examples of any songs, where bar crash is used, even though there are people talking about the technique.
I thought I could go and buy all the records that ever featured the great Speedy West, but how would I know Bar Crashing from any other technique Speedy used? I would have to guess at it and never really know for sure. I could, of coarse, go and ask a pro steel player down the street to demonstrate this misterious technique to me - trouble is, I live at least 300 miles from the nearest steeler( as far as I know). So how do I get an example of this technique? The only way I know, is to ask someone on this forum to name or link a song or two where Speedy actually uses that technique. Then, I'd be able to hear or even see this technique in action and know what I'm trying to achieve in my own playing.
Now I'm sure someone here would gladly help me with that one request. But I've hit that wall with just about every new change or style I've tried to learn - no real life examples of any of these things being used until I accidently found them myself just doodling and listening to music, stumbling into examples along the way. I'm certain all beginners would benefit from such examples. So why not have a thread, where you can just post your favorite samples of the great players using specific techniques or changes or string combinations, so beginners would get a good idea of how they are used. I am sorry if i'm just beating a dead horse here everyone.
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J D Sauser


From:
Puerto Plata, Dominican Republic.
Post  Posted 4 Aug 2010 6:51 pm    
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Bryan Daste wrote:
OK, names aside, how is this idea any different from the Nashville Number System, figured bass, or whatever else you might call it?


The idea is that the Nashville system is just one application of the interval system: The organization of progressions and to a limited level, chord tensions.

What The Missing Link teaches, is how the principle of intervals applies to EVERY aspect of your playing and how it will help you to understand not just your instrument (it teaches you music and to play it on the steel guitar) but what you hear and what you want to hear and how to know how to lay it out on your fret board.
The teachings of The Missing Link are not a "system" or an invention but an approach to learn to play steel guitar by KNOWING using repeatable principles.




Igor: Search "Speedy West" on youtube. HERE is ONE example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L22emPmRh_Y&feature=related Bar Slam/Crash sightings at 00:56 thru 01:07!

It's a combination of slamming the bar onto the strings, creating a sudden, loud, big chord (also called a "kiss") and also, in Speedy's case, adding a rapid tone control swipe from all trebles cut to bright, which further emphasized the effect "boowhaah, swobosh, boowhap ba-hoowah-ziiiong". Very Happy His tone control was a big wheeled knob at the right hand end of his guitar's end plate.

As much as I love Speedy's playing, I doubt it can be ascertained the was indeed the "inventor" or "originator" of that technique, but I think he could safely have claimed that he was the foremost ambassador or this playing technique which he made an integral part of his recognizable style. It was pretty fashionable as the new thing to do in Hillbilly Swing bands all over the US in the early electric days.

Speedy once told me chuckling, that at a ball room dance, for the lack of space on the stage, he had been setup down on the dance floor in front of the stage. People where dancing around him and as he went into reeling off one of his wild solos, he overheard a young woman who was dancing with her partner right next to Speedy exclaim something to the take of: "... lets get away from this, this thing is going to BLOW UP!". I got the impression that HE (Speedy) felt flattered by that reaction! Very Happy

Speedy obviously was an early pedalist (but not the first either!), which allowed him to play whole lines using a succession of bar crashes, by not only moving up and down the neck but altering his crash chords. He used that timely technological advantage quite shamelessly shall we say. Very Happy.

... J-D.
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Ben Jones


From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
Post  Posted 4 Aug 2010 7:45 pm    
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Igor Fiksman wrote:
Valid points everyone. Ben, you're right about including the tab - that would be very helpful. But I'm still hoping to start a thread of examples of different techniques being used in well known songs.

Here's where I got this idea. A couple of years back, I was reading the Bio's of all the Steel Guitar Hall of Famers. Reading about Speedy West, I found that he was an originator of the Bar Crash technique. That intrigued me, I thought i've got to hear that Bar Crash Technique in action. But if you Google or Youtube "Bar Crash Technique", you'll likely just get a bunch of videos of John Wayne tossing cowboys through saloon doors. Even if you search the Forum, there are no examples of any songs, where bar crash is used, even though there are people talking about the technique.
I thought I could go and buy all the records that ever featured the great Speedy West, but how would I know Bar Crashing from any other technique Speedy used? I would have to guess at it and never really know for sure. I could, of coarse, go and ask a pro steel player down the street to demonstrate this misterious technique to me - trouble is, I live at least 300 miles from the nearest steeler( as far as I know). So how do I get an example of this technique? The only way I know, is to ask someone on this forum to name or link a song or two where Speedy actually uses that technique. Then, I'd be able to hear or even see this technique in action and know what I'm trying to achieve in my own playing.
Now I'm sure someone here would gladly help me with that one request. But I've hit that wall with just about every new change or style I've tried to learn - no real life examples of any of these things being used until I accidently found them myself just doodling and listening to music, stumbling into examples along the way. I'm certain all beginners would benefit from such examples. So why not have a thread, where you can just post your favorite samples of the great players using specific techniques or changes or string combinations, so beginners would get a good idea of how they are used. I am sorry if i'm just beating a dead horse here everyone.


sounds great actually. bring em on,I'll try and add one too

GREAT Speedy story J D!
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James Morehead


From:
Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.
Post  Posted 5 Aug 2010 3:40 am    
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Here ya go, Igor. Check it out about 1:45. Don't see this anymore, do ya?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVYLpckjv8Q&feature=related
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Abe Levy


From:
California, USA
Post  Posted 6 Aug 2010 6:36 pm    
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I really like your idea Igor. As a beginner to (maybe) intermediate player, what you're suggesting would be really helpful. I often find myself wondering what else I can do with my LKR which lowers my Es. I've got a few uses, but I'm certain I'm missing most of it's usefulness.

Kind of disappointed how much rhetoric has to flow on the forum. What you asked for was simple, yet there's thousands of words devoted to everything but useful tips here.

Bravo, Igor.
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Nic du Toit


From:
Milnerton, Cape, South Africa
Post  Posted 7 Aug 2010 12:32 am    
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The underlying concept in being able to use tabbed examples, is the premise that you know enough to be able to 'think steel', while trying play such examples......
Igor, I've sent you mail.
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Igor Fiksman


From:
Georgia, USA
Post  Posted 7 Aug 2010 7:26 am    
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JD and James, thank you guys so much for posting those links to Speedy's amazing playing. I really appreciate people taking time out of their day to help. This is exactly what I'm talking about.
Technique - Bar Crash
Answer - Detailed description by JD
Practical example - video links posted by both JD and James
I can't think of a better way to explain to the beginner.
Now how about doing the same thing for every single stumble we all have faced on our road to understanding the steel. Let's see ( and hear) real song examples of different lever use, bar slants, bar shiver, vibrato, half-pedal, single note scale runs etc. etc. in the same fashion and watch the whole new world of understanding open up for all those who dare to want to learn this magical chord machine with strings, electric cheese slicer or whatever you call it. Very Happy
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