| Author |
Topic: Rack and barrel "fix"... and other observations. |
Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
|
Posted 7 Feb 2010 1:21 pm |
|
Just started work on a roundfront R&B 6140... was originally 6 pedals, now its 3 and 4..
I am adding 2 floors, and going through the copedent totally, as its all ass backwards as far as I am concerned..
This guitar came here in a totally unplayable state, like most of the old junk I seem to attract.
[I price shop, buy low, and always get what I pay for-junk] 
I found a good easy fix for out of tune notes with pedals engaged..
The barrels were too "freewheelin" it seemed.. My a and b pedals were badly out of tune within 30 seconds, no exceptions... No way you could even get through half a song.
That was my initial diagnosis, and it seemed correct.. I started removing the barrels rod by rod, and did the following to each..
Cleaned all old oil residue from the threads of each barrel, male AND female sides.. I stretched each spring a tad, and before re installing, I wrapped a very small amount of teflon tape on the threads.. This needed to be worked back and forth in and out a bit at first, as the threads are very fine, and it was too tight at first...
It works VERY well.
The barrels no longer move after just a few pedal pushes, and when you adjust, you get a firm positive resistance, but it still is free enough that no real "force" is needed. The guitar now seems to play in tune nicely, but of course, time will tell.
This guitar is actually very quiet.. Not a lot of slamming around like my 6140 from 30 years ago.
I have room for 8 pedals/knees on the racks,but will need 9, so I may go with the E lowers using a "standard" Bud pull system. Crosshaft and 2 pullers,2 rods with threads at the changer and nylon tuners, unless I can find a rack and a few associated R&B "pull parts".. Wish me luck.. any ideas, or thoughts?
btw, this guitar has 2 500K AB type J pots on it, and the shaft length looks right for volume pedal use!... If so, those "on deck" volume and tone knobs will have shiny new ""modern"" 500 K pots, and my pot volume pedals will once again be blessedly silent! bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
|
|
|
Brad Issendorf
From:
Lake City, Minnesota
|
Posted 7 Feb 2010 2:10 pm
|
|
| On the 6140 that I fixed for a freind of mine, some of the spring tails on the barrels were bent and would not slide through the hole freely. That seemed to be the tuning problem that it had. After I straightened them, it stays dead on now. I even got brave and took it out on the job to show him how well it works now. Four hours of real world use and no mechanical problems or tuning change what so ever. Also what great sound except for the intermittent pickup problem. |
|
|
|
John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
|
Posted 8 Feb 2010 7:19 am
|
|
Rack and barrel ShoBuds are my favorites. I have seen many barrels with the spring end broken off. I have seen guitars with too much space between the rack and the barrel. which doesn't allow the spring end to engage the rack. My 67 did not even have rack return springs. They hadn't been developed yet. That made for a very "iffy" mechanical situation. I added them.
If all these issues are correctly met, there is no reason to have to tighten up the barrels.
Bob, does your guitar have any of these problems?
JB |
|
|
|
Rick Abbott
From:
Indiana, USA
|
Posted 8 Feb 2010 7:34 am
|
|
I made the mistake of cleaning the barrels and lubing them with a light oil when I first cleaned up my guitar. I learned very quickly that the barrels can and will rotate. My 6th string would be out of tune in less than 1 minute, exactly the same amount each time. I used a heavy grease on it, problem solved. Some other pulls were iffy too. no trouble now, I'm a bunch better at setting this guitar up now too. 
_________________
RICK ABBOTT
Sho~Bud D-10 Professional #7962
Remington T-8, Wakarusa 5e3 clone
1953 Stromberg-Carlson AU-35 |
|
|
|
Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
|
Posted 8 Feb 2010 5:20 pm
|
|
| John Billings wrote: |
Rack and barrel ShoBuds are my favorites. I have seen many barrels with the spring end broken off. I have seen guitars with too much space between the rack and the barrel. which doesn't allow the spring end to engage the rack. My 67 did not even have rack return springs. They hadn't been developed yet. That made for a very "iffy" mechanical situation. I added them.
If all these issues are correctly met, there is no reason to have to tighten up the barrels.
Bob, does your guitar have any of these problems?
JB |
Its getting better each day John.. I have noticed some spring ends shorter than others... I have to see if those springs are available reasonably somewhere, as I can use some replacements.
I can cut and stretch but thats a pain..
I am learning this system, and each day am getting better... I had one years ago, and somehow added 4 knees to a 6140.. I have NO idea how I did it, as I was a stupid kid in my 20's at the time...
I do remember I used all Bud parts brand new.. From Marrs Guitars maybe??..
Right now I have 3 and 4 working, and its much more stable but still not 100%... I plan to add 2 more pedals, each with only 1 pull... Basically a "split" Franklin pull. I have this on my Fender 800 and have become used to it, so it goes on the Bud.
Personally, I think the sound of the R&B Buds is unmatched by anything they ever built, and this is Bud #7 for me.. I have owned most of thier pull setups.
I don't like the ornery tuning of the R&B system, but to be honest, I don't like the tunability of any Bud, compared to other brands.. I rarely keep them because of that reason, but I am hoping I can tame this particular guitar, as its tone is unearthly sweet.
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
|
|
|
Russ Wever
From:
Kansas City
|
Posted 8 Feb 2010 6:22 pm
|
|
| Quote: |
I have noticed some spring ends shorter than others...
I have to see if those springs are available reasonably
somewhere, as I can use some replacements.
I can cut and stretch but thats a pain.. |
When dealing with springs with which some of the straight part
has lost some of its length such that it doesn't protrude far
enough though the brass hole, I've found it best to wrap the threads
with tape to protect its threads, chuck it in a drill press or hand
drill and file off some of the thickness of its 'round face'.
This will allow the straight part of the spring to protrude farther.
I've in the past tried to 'stretch' out a part of the springs coil to
recreate the 'straight part' but it's virtually impossible to
straighten what has bent.
In the case of a missing spring, you can find a replacement coil
spring (with out any 'straight part') in hardware stock of the right
size to go over the barrel, then use a short length of small diameter drill
rod, using a press fit into the hole in the brass piece, to serve as the 'tang'.
Depending on the diameter of the drill rod, you may have to enlarge the
original hole diameter. The spring and the 'tang' need not be the same
piece, as the function of the 'tang' is to catch on the rack (only with
the pedal engaged), and the springs purpose is to apply tension between
the two halves of the barrels in order to create friction in the threads
which will hold their adjustment.
~Russ
_________________
www.russface
www.russguru |
|
|
|
Bob Hamilton
From:
California Central Coast
|
Posted 8 Feb 2010 8:12 pm short spring ends
|
|
| Russ is exactly right. I have chucked mine up in a drill press (wrap the threads to protect them) and placed a file on the table to press against to remove some of the brass wall thickness that the spring protrudes thru. It's fast and way better than messing with the springs themselves. Just be careful that you don't get too much spring showing. That's altogether another tuning problem. |
|
|
|
Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
|
Posted 9 Feb 2010 2:47 am
|
|
I did take some of the face off one of the barrels already..meh - I don't like thinning "factory stuff" out like that, as its irreversible.
This entire spring/tuning collar thing is ludicrous really.. It seems MUCH easier to get some welding rod,thread the ends for nylon tuners, and just use the tuning collars as stops to pull against the racks after removing the springs and locking them down, or better yet, just taking them off and use smaller lighter rod stops with an allen set screw.. Much less cranky to deal with, and no worrying about weird little springs.. I have done that to one pull already, my first string F# up a full tone.. seems fine.
As far as the original rods and tuning collars, for now its good, its staying in tune pretty well, but it needs a lot more hard playtime before I can call it "right".
So I guess for now,the spring end needs to be inside the elongated hole in the rack , when at rest, correct?.
The problem I see is this.. If you have a pull thats too sharp, and have to back of the collar via the endplate Allen tuner with the pedal depressed, the spring may back out of the hole in the rack.. no?
Again, I'll stick with this original tuning set up as long as it behaves itself, but nylon tuners seem much more "refined" than this setup.. Might save some "drivetrain clatter" as well.
Of course I would keep all the original parts... Anybody ever used nylon tuners on a rack and barrel? bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
|
|
|
Brad Issendorf
From:
Lake City, Minnesota
|
Posted 9 Feb 2010 5:02 am
|
|
That's why I learned that the tails have to work freely throught the holes. The ones that were bent wouldn't do that so that when a pedal was used, depending on how it happened to be positioned, sometimes the tail would be the pull point. The very next time the same pedal was used, the rod would rotate and it would pull against the barrel. This alone will cause it to pull sharp or flat; in this things case between a quarter to a half step. I fixed this and now all is well. The reason for the barrels I believe is that with the single hole changer, you can raise the same string many different ways by adding more barrels at different "cages" on the same rod. Tuning that single change and not the rest on the same rod happens because when you apply that change, the tail anchors the barrel so it is the only one that lengthens or shortens when the rod is rotated. From there, the springs job is to keep enough tension on the threads so that they don't change in length when they are not supposed to. About the body problems in your other post, this one seems to be pulling apart at the glue joint between the rear skirt and its top. Its not mine so I can't do anything about it but if it were mine, I would try to find someone to fix it as I'm a mechanic, not a cabinent maker.
_________________
06 MSA Legend or 75 MSA Maple Classic, Goodrich 120, Lemay preamp, with Profex II through Peavey Classic 50/50 through 1 Nashville 115e. |
|
|
|
Ernest Cawby
From:
Lake City, Florida, USA, R.I.P.
|
Posted 10 Feb 2010 5:02 am hi
|
|
Bob I found the set screws are week, went to Home Depoe and found stainless set screws 2 for .58c
replace the old ones now they will tighten just right , this was a great help. Also the springs were as you stated just pulled the out to make better contact. James Moorehead is a great place to get info on rack and barrels, he helped me how to adjust them.\It seems to me these guitars sound and play very well when set up right.
I bought s new Professional in 1972 played it for 35 years never needed any repairs, I wanted to upgrade it and used John Coops new parts. Never liked it afterwards, Nan said it never sounded as good as the old way. That is the reason I had to sell it to keep peace in the family. Now am back to Rack and Barrel on my prewsent ShoBud.
ernie |
|
|
|
Russ Wever
From:
Kansas City
|
Posted 10 Feb 2010 7:46 am
|
|
| Quote: |
. . . the spring end needs to be inside the
elongated hole in the rack , when at rest, correct? |
Incorrect.
There needs to be enough 'free play' in the range of the pedals motion
such that the spring end can 'clear' the rack when the pedal is up.
When the pedal is down and the pull rod is turned, the spring end
will come at rest against the upper or lower edge of the rack,
thereby preventing the male-threaded portion of the barrel from
turning, which makes for the tuning adjustment.
Should the pull-rod/barrel/spring-end ass'y inadvertently
become axially positioned such that the spring end is forced against
the face of the rack, the spring end will simply retract accordingly
when the pedal is pressed, and when the pull rod is turned, the spring
end will come back out when the pedal is released or when the pull
rod is turned.
~Russ
_________________
www.russface
www.russguru |
|
|
|
John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
|
Posted 10 Feb 2010 9:10 am
|
|
Russ has it Eggs Ackley correct! That's why I had to put the rack "return" springs on my '67. Without those springs, the racks would always engage the barrel spring ends, making tuning, and stability impossible. On pedals/levers pulling more than one string, the string requiring the longest pull needs to engage the rack first. It's not like modern 11 hole bell cranks.
Here's how mine looked without the rack return springs. Notice that the barrels are engaged with the racks, all the time.
 |
|
|
|
Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
|
Posted 10 Feb 2010 4:37 pm
|
|
| Russ Wever wrote: |
| Quote: |
. . . the spring end needs to be inside the
elongated hole in the rack , when at rest, correct? |
Incorrect.
There needs to be enough 'free play' in the range of the pedals motion
such that the spring end can 'clear' the rack when the pedal is up.
When the pedal is down and the pull rod is turned, the spring end
will come at rest against the upper or lower edge of the rack,
thereby preventing the male-threaded portion of the barrel from
turning, which makes for the tuning adjustment.
Should the pull-rod/barrel/spring-end ass'y inadvertently
become axially positioned such that the spring end is forced against
the face of the rack, the spring end will simply retract accordingly
when the pedal is pressed, and when the pull rod is turned, the spring
end will come back out when the pedal is released or when the pull
rod is turned.
~Russ |
Russ..Thats a big help.. thanks.
This guitar does not have rack return springs and I was wondering why not, as the pedals have no "freeplay" and need some.. Barely touch the pedal and you are partially into a pull. I saw that a light spring on the rack would lift the pedal up, but they were not on the guitar, so I figured it was supposed to be that way.. My first 6140 did have springs on the rack and I had very few tuning problems with it. That was a VERY long time ago, and forgot what little I learned from that guitar.
If I put some light springs on the racks, It should keep the racks from resting on the tuning collars, which in turn should keep the spring ends off the rack... I am getting it.. The guitar is playing pretty well in tune now, but could be better.. Very helpful advice.
Its starting to make some sense to me now... I went through this same scenario 6-7 months ago when setting up a basket case fender 800 to be playable.. There's a learning curve, but once into it, and with some good advice from guys that have been there, it all starts to make sense... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
|
|
|
Russ Wever
From:
Kansas City
|
Posted 10 Feb 2010 4:57 pm
|
|
Yeah, I don't recall ever seeing
a rack&barrel set-up that didn't
have pedal return springs to keep
the rack 'out of the way'of the
barrel/spring-tips. Sometimes
certain Sho-Bud models seemed
to be a 'work-in-progress'
at times.
The free-play in the motion of the
pedal is necessary to keep other
pedals/knees on the same string
from becoming untuned when tuning
the one at hand.
~Russ
_________________
www.russface
www.russguru |
|
|
|
Rick Abbott
From:
Indiana, USA
|
Posted 10 Feb 2010 7:55 pm
|
|
The return springs are THE key to the rack 'n barrel (you can hold the front edge of the barrel to tune it if the spring is crap). My Crossover uses those flimsy ones that rest on the cross-shaft...I took them all off and use springs attached to the edge of the rack to the next cross-shaft. The difference is tremendous! Right now my steel is in the case, or I'd post a picture. Honestly, I never believed that this steel would play in tune in a real-world situation, until tonight! I went to a jam session with some folks I know, but hadn't played with before, and played full-tilt for three hours...without ever needing to tune the guitar!! I cannot overstate my shock. People seem to think that these guitars (rack and barrel) are antiques and hard to deal with. I actually bitched to the drummer all the way to the jam, saying that "I'd probably suffer with tuning issues, and be sorry that I brought the steel" How wrong i was!! This was the very first time I played my ShoBud with anyone outside my home...and had more fun than should be legal! If ya wanna play an old Bud, ya gotta be a patient mechanic...it works out.
Of course the great tone was enhanced by a '67 Bassman head into an Acoustic 1-15 cab loaded with a white-frame Altec. Yeah, the learning curve is steep for a bit, but it's worth it!
_________________
RICK ABBOTT
Sho~Bud D-10 Professional #7962
Remington T-8, Wakarusa 5e3 clone
1953 Stromberg-Carlson AU-35 |
|
|
|
Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
|
Posted 11 Feb 2010 12:40 am
|
|
| Rick Abbott wrote: |
The return springs are THE key to the rack 'n barrel (you can hold the front edge of the barrel to tune it if the spring is crap). My Crossover uses those flimsy ones that rest on the cross-shaft...I took them all off and use springs attached to the edge of the rack to the next cross-shaft. The difference is tremendous! Right now my steel is in the case, or I'd post a picture. Honestly, I never believed that this steel would play in tune in a real-world situation, until tonight! I went to a jam session with some folks I know, but hadn't played with before, and played full-tilt for three hours...without ever needing to tune the guitar!! I cannot overstate my shock. People seem to think that these guitars (rack and barrel) are antiques and hard to deal with. I actually bitched to the drummer all the way to the jam, saying that "I'd probably suffer with tuning issues, and be sorry that I brought the steel" How wrong i was!! This was the very first time I played my ShoBud with anyone outside my home...and had more fun than should be legal! If ya wanna play an old Bud, ya gotta be a patient mechanic...it works out.
Of course the great tone was enhanced by a '67 Bassman head into an Acoustic 1-15 cab loaded with a white-frame Altec. Yeah, the learning curve is steep for a bit, but it's worth it! |
Thats exactly why I bought this old Bud as well as the old Fender 800... These old steels through my assortment of old Fenders is MY sound.
The modern high powered steel sound is thick, rich, and beautiful for those that can attain it. I can't.
I like the sound of a vintage steel through old Fender amps, so I have to deal with the ornery tuning systems of old guitars , like a LOT of other guys.
I think once I get rack return springs on this and get all the tuning collars adjusted so the springs are on the edges of the rack, with enough edge protruding to "catch", I will see a big difference.
BTW, are these weird little collar springs available?.. I thought I read somewhere that Coop sold them, but I could be wrong... I am not going to try and cut them, I would never get the ends sraight enough to move freely through that tiny hole. bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
|
|
|
Rick Abbott
From:
Indiana, USA
|
Posted 11 Feb 2010 6:04 am
|
|
I don't know about Coop having the collar springs; he does have the cross-shaft return springs, but I'm not shure what your guitar would have. Like I said, I went to a more reliable spring to hold my pedals in the up position, and the racks, off the barrels. Most people say you can straighten the collar spring and put it through...I think patience and good pliers, and good light are the requirements.
_________________
RICK ABBOTT
Sho~Bud D-10 Professional #7962
Remington T-8, Wakarusa 5e3 clone
1953 Stromberg-Carlson AU-35
Last edited by Rick Abbott on 11 Feb 2010 6:05 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
|
Posted 11 Feb 2010 6:05 am
|
|
Bob,
Here's a pic of the return springs appropriate for your guitar. It's a Crossover, but the springs are the same.
Here's what you want to find;
Gardner Spring
1-800-331-3263
37043G
Prec. Extension Spring
Package Qty. 6
0.250 X 0.037 X 1.750
McMaster Carr, I believe carries them |
|
|
|
Rick Abbott
From:
Indiana, USA
|
Posted 11 Feb 2010 6:07 am
|
|
I think Bob is most concerned about those pesky springs on the barrels. Great picture of the mechanism John! I found something that works at my local hardware store. Return springs, that is.
_________________
RICK ABBOTT
Sho~Bud D-10 Professional #7962
Remington T-8, Wakarusa 5e3 clone
1953 Stromberg-Carlson AU-35 |
|
|
|
John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
|
Posted 11 Feb 2010 6:23 am
|
|
Russ,
Only the very earliest R and B guitars lacked the return springs. I think they noticed pretty quickly that they were needed. Rick's and my guitars are the only ones I've ever seen without them. Notice in the pic of my guitar, the rather odd aluminum castings that are the frame for holding the racks. Also notice that all the racks are facing the wrong direction! They screwed up making one rack, so they just turned them all backwards, hoping no one would notice the mess-up. They work just fine either way.
Bob,
If you get those springs, you'll have to drill a small hole in the rack frame. You can see where in the pic of the Crossover that I posted. Put one end of the spring into the new hole. Then set the guitar upright, so the weight of the pedal and it's rod is in effect. Using an awl, put it into the other end of the spring, and pull it until you have the right tension. Push in the awl to mark the point to drill for the body mounting screw.
Edited to add; Rick! Aren't ya glad you kept that piece of ShoBud history? :^) |
|
|
|
Nic du Toit
From:
Milnerton, Cape, South Africa
|
Posted 11 Feb 2010 7:17 am return springs
|
|
Here you can see that the return springs for the pedals are connected to the lower deck.
But there was no space for the knee lever return springs to be connected to the lower deck.
The solution was the brass colored pull rod with added collars and push springs.
It works perfectly and they are adjustable.
 |
|
|
|
John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
|
Posted 11 Feb 2010 7:27 am
|
|
Excellent solution Nic!
Bob, here's a better pic of the springs than that Crossover pic;
 |
|
|
|
Rick Abbott
From:
Indiana, USA
|
Posted 11 Feb 2010 9:56 am
|
|
The undercarriage of my guitar is not as friendly to that springing method, I did it this way. Here's a "good" spring next to a pile of the ones that broke, a totally bad idea for a crossshaft return. My method may seem crude, but was cheap and easy...plus extremely effective!!
_________________
RICK ABBOTT
Sho~Bud D-10 Professional #7962
Remington T-8, Wakarusa 5e3 clone
1953 Stromberg-Carlson AU-35 |
|
|
|
Russ Wever
From:
Kansas City
|
Posted 11 Feb 2010 10:23 am
|
|
While we're on it, here're a
couple of patent illustrations
that depict the rack & barrel
system. These are from the
'Crossover' patent.
~Russ
_________________
www.russface
www.russguru |
|
|
|
Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
|
Posted 11 Feb 2010 2:54 pm
|
|
Thats how I had planned on putting the rack return springs in.. Screws in the deck, spring attached to the side of the individual racks.. pretty basic stuff.
Is there any reason I can't take all the collars, and drill a tiny hole in the end 180 degrees from where the spring tag comes out? I would insert a piece of fine steel wire and then there would be NO way that collar could spin, or the spring tag go in the rack hole.. Is it imperative that that end be "springy", if its only there to keep the collar from rotating when the guitar is being played?
Of course, I would keep the springs where they are suppossed to be, just want to add something more substantial.. any thoughts? bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
|
|
|
