Guitar tone comparison

Darvin Willhoite · Post by **Darvin Willhoite** » 30 Jul 2009 5:56 am

I posted this as a reply in the "MSA Tone" thread, but in case you missed it there, here it is in it's own thread.

Here's a link to a demo song I threw together to see how some of my steel guitars sounded recorded. I used a different guitar on each of the two verses, and the two choruses. The guitars were a '75 Emmons P/P with original single coil pickups, a '75 MSA Classic with original single coil pickups, an MSA Millennium with Truetone single coils, and an MSA Studio Pro with Truetone single coils. I used an Acoustic Image Clarus 2R, Series III amp using the XLR direct out into the computer through a Tascam US144 interface. I also used a Boss RV-3 for reverb and delay. Anyone care to guess which guitar is playing which part?

(Don't pay any attention to my rough playing, just listen to the tone.)

Go here to download the song.

https://app.box.com/shared/yi7sn7ellb

Larry Bressington · Post by **Larry Bressington** » 30 Jul 2009 9:17 am

Dar, when i go there what do i click on, it stops me at the first step. at project details!

Darvin Willhoite · Post by **Darvin Willhoite** » 30 Jul 2009 9:42 am

Larry, go down to the box that says "STEEL DEMOS" and click on the "DOWNLOAD" button next to it. It will come up with another screen that has the identical box, click "DOWNLOAD" again. Then it comes up with a screen that has two boxes, click the "DOWNLOAD WITH LIMITED SPEED" box. It only takes a few seconds to download this file.

Larry Bressington · Post by **Larry Bressington** » 30 Jul 2009 10:50 am

Thankyou darvin, i will get back to it next week.

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 30 Jul 2009 11:10 am

At the risk of making a complete fool of myself, I'm gonna guess that the Emmons PP comes in at 2:36

Just as a precaution, I'm gonna test the embarrased feature, as it could be employed in any further posts I may make on this thread

David Wright · Post by **David Wright** » 30 Jul 2009 12:20 pm

Darvin,
Very well done, Now, heres my take on this.
If you hadn't said you were using different steels while doing the recording I would have to say, didn't hear a difference, one must remember, just moving your hand towards or away from the changer will change your tone, I do it, being I play one neck, and try to get two different sounds from it with out changing my setting on my amp ... I do it with my "Hands"... and where I "pick" on the neck, for "me", I have two different styles of playing, 1. for the Country sound, 2. for the "Fatter" sound...

I don't want to open the tone thing, hands, bla`bla`` But... your hands play such a very big part of tone...and the eyes sometimes tells the ears what they hear, with out seeing, all you have is your ears....I think you proved a point..

This is my take on what I'm hearing, and mine alone..

Danny Bates · Post by **Danny Bates** » 30 Jul 2009 12:44 pm

My guess is the push/pull comes in at 1:45

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 30 Jul 2009 6:58 pm

I hear some slight differences in the tones (more a little variance in treble than anything else). But all in all, I agree with David Wright. Darvin's little demonstration does a good job of showing people how close the sounds of different brands really are.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 30 Jul 2009 9:56 pm

There is so much echo and reverb that it's hard to isolate the actual guitar sound. The effects are as loud as the original signal. Still, I do hear the differences. I prefer the 3rd one by a good margin. The 2nd and 4th one sound very similar to me except that the 4th is louder.

I don't really know the difference between MSA models, so I'm not going to venture any guesses on what is what.

Real nice playing, Darvin. Good volume pedal technique.

Bill Duncan · Post by **Bill Duncan** » 31 Jul 2009 5:17 am

Darvin,
The main difference to me was in volume. It very well could have been the same guitar all the way through.

I thought the Emmons p/p was a humongus tone monster. I kept waiting for the tone of the p/p to overwhelm me, but alas it didn't.

Guess the p/p tone is kind of like ghosts. We know they're there, if only we could get proof.

1-Emmons P/P
2-'75 MSA Classic
3-MSA Studio Pro
4-MSA Millinium

Scott Swartz · Post by **Scott Swartz** » 31 Jul 2009 8:28 am

My guess is

1 - Millenium
2 - 75 MSA Classic
3 - push pull
4 - MSA Studio Pro

1 and 4 could be swapped, have not played either Milly or Studio Pro, I have more confidence in 2 and 3, but not much overall expectation I am right on my choices

Nothing like a little public humiliation.....

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 31 Jul 2009 10:39 am

I've never played a p/p or any MSA. I've heard recordings where I know that the guitar was a p/p, but never where I knew the guitar was an MSA, let alone any particular model. Having no credibility to lose, I'll say I think the p/p is number 3 (at 1:45).

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 31 Jul 2009 1:03 pm

First of all, I think your playing sounds great, Darvin. First time I've heard you play. Next, I think that all of the 4 guitars sound totally "acceptable" to my ear and with very little variation, certainly nothing very pronounced. If you hadn't told me it was four different guitars, my ear would readily have accepted them all as the same.

Having said that, I think the only one that sounds a bit different to me (if I try hard to hear a difference) is the last chorus, so I'm gonna guess that that's the pp and the others are all MSAs.

Hook Moore · Post by **Hook Moore** » 31 Jul 2009 1:44 pm

Very nice playing my friend ! Sounds like the classic MSA #2 and the Emmons #4..

Chris Lucker · Post by **Chris Lucker** » 31 Jul 2009 2:16 pm

I don't hear an Emmons.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 31 Jul 2009 2:31 pm

There is so much echo and reverb that it's hard to isolate the actual guitar sound.

That's a huge problem in tone comparisons. Reverb especially skews results as it acts primarily on the upper frequencies. Even a small amount of reverb can mask a guitar's "real" tone. Echo is less troublesome, but still buries some things. Same with compression (and cheap compressors can REALLY screw up your tone!)

Tonal comparisons, to have any semblance of objectivity, need to be recorded "dry", using the same amp, cables, volume level and miking. The playing should also be a "neutral" as possible.

Chris Lucker · Post by **Chris Lucker** » 31 Jul 2009 3:08 pm

Jim, I agree. I would like to hear the comparisons done DRY, at the eighth fret, strings 3-4-5 and then 4-5-6, then 6-8-10 with no pedals. Same with A and B. Then play the V7s. Nice and simple. You can even play each set twice at the sweet spot around the 26th fret and then closer to the bridge for comparison.

Then maybe add a simple scale for single note sounds

I could even do a comparison like this if someone would tab it out for me.

Chris

Chris Lucker · Post by **Chris Lucker** » 31 Jul 2009 3:10 pm

Jim, I agree. I would like to hear the comparisons done at the eighth fret, strings 3-4-5 and then 4-5-6, then 6-8-10 with no pedals. Same with A and B. Then play the V7s. Nice and simple. You can even play each set twice at the sweet spot around the 26th fret and then closer to the bridge for comparison.

I could even do a comparison like I describe if someone would tab it out for me.

Chris

Bo Legg · Post by **Bo Legg** » 31 Jul 2009 4:18 pm

Darvin Willhoite

Willhoite I used a different guitar on each of the two verses, and the two choruses. The guitars were a '75 Emmons P/P with original single coil pickups, a '75 MSA Classic with original single coil pickups, an MSA Millennium with Truetone single coils, and an MSA Studio Pro with Truetone single coils.

Darvin you did a fine job and all PSG you used sounded great, but I think the whole thing would have sounded better if you would have used just any Sho-Bud.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 31 Jul 2009 4:26 pm

Bo, what was your point?

The thread has to do with tonal differences between guitar; what playing "any Shobud" has to do with that is unclear, unless you are trying to say a Shobud's tone is superior to ANY other guitar - in which case the statement is both irrelevant and off topic.

Bo Legg · Post by **Bo Legg** » 31 Jul 2009 4:34 pm

Jim, I took this topic to be a commercial for MSA as in any MSA tone will equate with an Emmons p/p.
My take was to compliment the sound of the MSA and the player and then of course return the favor with a Sho-Bud commercial.

Bill Duncan · Post by **Bill Duncan** » 31 Jul 2009 5:43 pm

I think this thread shows that there is no MSA, or Emmons, or any other brand exclusive tone that is readily and consistently recognizable.

Darvin Willhoite · Post by **Darvin Willhoite** » 31 Jul 2009 5:50 pm

Thanks guys for all of your comments. This was not meant to be a technical analysis of the tones of different guitars, it was just a sampling of what different guitars may sound like from a bandstand, to the average ears.

I used the RV-3 with the settings I would normally use when playing with a band, even though it might be a bit "wet" for some. I started playing back in the "Black Album" days when plate reverbs were pretty new, and producers and engineers used them to their full potential, and that sound kind of stuck with me. My Son runs our Studio and he is always on me about too much reverb. Oh well.....youngsters....

I'll post the guitars I used on which part sometime this weekend.

Darvin Willhoite · Post by **Darvin Willhoite** » 31 Jul 2009 6:35 pm

Uh Oh Bo, I'm busted. I love my MSA guitars, but I have a couple of Sho Buds in various re-build stages. When I get them finished, I may do the same thing comparing 'Buds with Williams, or Fessendens, or etc.

Billy Carr · Post by **Billy Carr** » 31 Jul 2009 6:39 pm

It's who sitting behind the guitar that counts. The "Hand" thing is on it 100%.

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