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Topic: 72 Telecaster Custom wiring |
Justin Hughes
From:
Louisville
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Posted 18 Dec 2008 8:24 pm |
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I'm replacing the stock bridge pickup in my bandmate's 72 RI Tele Custom with a Lollar. I'm going to upgrade the switch, pots, cap, jack and Electrosocket. I need some guidance. For those unfamiliar here's a link to the stock wiring diagram.
http://www.fender.com/support/diagrams/pdfs/72TELECSTM/SD0137500CPg2.pdf
Issue 1: I think I'll replace the pots for the neck pickup (Fender widerange humbucker reissue) with 500k pots as it can stand to be a bit brighter. Do I need to replace the tone, volume or both pots? How about cap values?
Issue 2: With dual pickup guitars I typically use a combination of both the neck and bridge pickups (3 way switch in middle position). I keep the bridge volume at 100% and reduce the neck volume until the mix is where I want it. However, when I do this the OVERALL volume is decreased. In the middle position I want the OVERALL volume to be as loud as the pickup whose volume pot is turned up highest. I hope I have explained this well enough. It would seem to me that most people would want this to be the result too. So, how do I wire the guitar to achieve this?
Thanks in advance!
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Justin |
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Steve Feldman
From:
Central MA USA
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Jim Phelps
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
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Posted 18 Dec 2008 11:11 pm
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I've played an original '72 Tele Custom for the last 8 years or so and if the RI is anything like mine, the neck humbucker has a much hotter output than the standard single-coil Tele bridge PU, so when you roll down the neck pickup a bit with the PU selector on both, you're going to lose some volume, probably a bit less than if you switched from the neck-only to the bridge-only.
I have the neck PU a bit further away from the strings than the bridge PU, which I have set-up as close to the strings as I can without problems from the PU polepieces' magnets pulling on the strings. That helps balance them a little but the neck PU is still hotter than the bridge PU...
The only other thing I know of to change that, is put a bridge PU in there that's more of an equal volume output as the neck PU, or a weaker neck PU... I'd go with a hotter output bridge PU if I couldn't live with it as-is... by the way, leaving the PU switch in the "both" position and slightly rolling down the neck volume to 9 or 9-1/2 or so is one of my most commonly used positions with that guitar.
I used to always use it with a volume pedal, with that you can adjust your volume and compensate for the different outputs of the PU's... otherwise, get used to it or get a hotter bridge PU, I think are the only choices unless you want to use a compressor pedal with waaay too much compression to even it out, and that sounds rather bad and makes your tone thin besides.
My own opinion on the pot value is that a 500K in the neck would be good, helps keep the humbucker a little brighter, I'd put them in the volume and tone circuits for the neck, and leave the 250K's in the bridge, and the original caps should be fine if you like the present tonal range... I don't like a big cap so I sometimes change them but in the '72 it's all stock and it's fine to me, YMMV.  |
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Henry Nagle
From:
Santa Rosa, California
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Posted 19 Dec 2008 3:21 am
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I just replaced the pots on my original 70's Tele Deluxe.
Getting the volume pots to function independently when both pickups selected is achieved by using the middle terminal on the pot.
The original guitars used 1 meg pots. You probably don't want to do that for the bridge single coil but you might consider it if you want to brighten the neck pickup even more.
I used 250 k pots on the bridge and 500 k on the neck. I think the stock caps were, umm, .022? I don't remember for sure. |
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Stephen Gambrell
From:
Over there
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Posted 19 Dec 2008 4:51 am
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| The 1 meg pots were leftovers. CBS had a bunch of 'em left from the amp days, and wanted to use 'em up. |
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Justin Hughes
From:
Louisville
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Posted 19 Dec 2008 6:18 am
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Steve,
Yes, some high end is rolling off but there is a definite volume drop. Let's say I have the bridge volume on 10 and the neck pickup on 1. I want it wired so that when in the middle position it is AS LOUD as the bridge only position. Right now it is only as loud as the pickup with the lowest volume. I had already considered a treble bleed cap and think I will employ one. Good idea.
Jim,
The reissue wide-range pickups are not quite like the originals in terms of tone per a discussion with Jason Lollar. Mr. Lollar had this to say in an email to me:
"The original fender wide range pickups had special magnets that are no longer made- these magnets being inside each coil had a dramatic influence on the tone, the new re-issues of course do not use the proper magnets andthey are not wound the same as the originals. . . As would be typical of the original instrument the higher wind humbucker will overpower the bridge pickup- all of them did and still do on the re-issues as I have been told."
I'm pretty sure there's a way to achieve what I explained as I have a 335 that I had wired that way. I can't afford to have it done by someone else (a professional) and I'm not pulling the wiring out of that F-hole to inspect it.
Henry,
I think you're following me. But isn't the middle terminal being used as it is already wired? See wiring diagram above. Any further explanation is most appreciated.
Thanks fellas!
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Justin |
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Henry Nagle
From:
Santa Rosa, California
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Posted 19 Dec 2008 8:00 am
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Justin, I can't claim to be too sharp with this stuff, but I think you might try switching those wires around so that the wires from the pickup (not the wires from the switch) are using the middles lugs on the volume pots.
I went through this same ordeal recently on a different guitar and I ended up opening up my Fender and imitating it's wiring. I did take a couple of bad pictures that just might be helpful. If you send me your email address I'll send them to you. |
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Henry Nagle
From:
Santa Rosa, California
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Henry Nagle
From:
Santa Rosa, California
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Posted 19 Dec 2008 8:11 am
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Here's an overall so that you might be able to see which wires are coming and going. Sorry it's not clearer. When I took these I wasn't anticipating them being useful to anyone else.
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Justin Hughes
From:
Louisville
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Posted 19 Dec 2008 9:45 am
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Thanks, Henry! This has been helpful. Now I've gotta order the parts. So your guitar is now wired how I described? Each volume is independent?
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Justin |
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Jim Phelps
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
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Posted 19 Dec 2008 12:24 pm
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| Justin Hughes wrote: |
Steve,
Yes, some high end is rolling off but there is a definite volume drop. Let's say I have the bridge volume on 10 and the neck pickup on 1. I want it wired so that when in the middle position it is AS LOUD as the bridge only position. Right now it is only as loud as the pickup with the lowest volume. I had already considered a treble bleed cap and think I will employ one. Good idea.
Jim,
The reissue wide-range pickups are not quite like the originals in terms of tone per a discussion with Jason Lollar. Mr. Lollar had this to say in an email to me:
"The original fender wide range pickups had special magnets that are no longer made- these magnets being inside each coil had a dramatic influence on the tone, the new re-issues of course do not use the proper magnets andthey are not wound the same as the originals. . . As would be typical of the original instrument the higher wind humbucker will overpower the bridge pickup- all of them did and still do on the re-issues as I have been told."
....."I'm pretty sure there's a way to achieve what I explained as I have a 335 that I had wired that way."
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I'm afraid you're not listening. Mr. Lollar just told you very clearly as did I, that this is just how this particular guitar IS, he said:
"the higher wind humbucker will overpower the bridge pickup- all of them did and still do on the re-issues"
If you can't believe me, believe Mr. Lollar.
Also, there's no reason to have one pickup turned up to 10 and the other on 1, if you turn one below about 8 it's effectively disconnected from the circuit but you will have a slightly mellower tone than if you used the switch due to having that resistance in the circuit, but this can be used to advantage.... say if you want the bridge pickup sound but it's a little too bright when you use the PU selector, you just roll the neck PU volume down to 8 or so and you have the bridge PU with a little less highs than if you switched to it with the switch, same for the neck PU if you roll the bridge PU volume down to 8 or lower, it's really not necessary going any lower than that. Whether you connect to the middle or end of the pot, this is not going to change, nor the overpowering of the neck PU.
I'm aware that the RI Wide Range Humbuckers are not the same as the originals. In fact, the bar magnets used in the RI will usually make a hotter PU than the individual magnet polepieces, in this case giving you an even more overpowering neck PU.
BTW, the Tele Deluxe, like the one Henry has, has two identical humbuckers and therefore doesn't have this problem of overpowering the bridge pickup that the Tele Custom has, by having the humbucker in the neck, which is where there is more string vibration and so is already the loudest place to put a pickup, and then putting a standard low-output Tele bridge pickup in the bridge position, where there is very little string movement and therefore a lower output even if it had a PU identical to that in the neck position.
Gibson ES-335s have the the same type of humbucker in the neck as the bridge, the older ones were identical, now Gibson is putting some PUs in the bridge which are just a little overwound so the bridge PU is more balanced with the neck pickup, so that is why your 335 didn't have this overpowering neck PU problem.
It's NOT in how they are wired. If you want it just like your ES-335, play a 335. |
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Henry Nagle
From:
Santa Rosa, California
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Posted 19 Dec 2008 12:50 pm
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Justin... Yeah dude! That's how I get my magic tone! I can't understand why every two pickup guitar isn't wired like that.
Just to be totally clear that we're talking about the same thing:
You're saying that you want your volume knobs to work independently, that neither of them be a "master". For instance: I usually keep the pu selector in the middle position. I keep the neck pickup all the way up and I add just enough bridge pickup to give me some bite. This is what you're after, right, except you prefer more treble pickup?
The only downer is that there's no master volume to swell with, but I use a volume pedal anyways. The tonal control is well worth that sacrifice.
Last edited by Henry Nagle on 19 Dec 2008 12:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Jim Phelps
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
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Posted 19 Dec 2008 12:58 pm
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Darn it Henry you're giving away all our secrets, now everyone will wire their guitars like yours and get "magic tone" too.... 
Oh, you just added more to your post.
FWIW I like the volumes to work that way too, but it isn't necessary, they can still be used to mix the PU as they are, I don't know why that is not understood...that's why they're there, the guitar companies aren't so stupid they put unusable controls on a guitar... again, when you have both PUs on, you don't need to turn them one the way down, once it's at about 8 it's pretty much off... but if rewiring them so they don't ground out when all the way down, makes you feel better, by all means do it.
It STILL will not do anything to change the overpowering neck PU in the Tele Custom, but perhaps it will be easier for Justin (or whoever's actually playing this one) to mix the two PU's.
Last edited by Jim Phelps on 19 Dec 2008 1:04 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Henry Nagle
From:
Santa Rosa, California
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Posted 19 Dec 2008 12:59 pm
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| I'm just trying to level the field, so we can all make big money! |
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Justin Hughes
From:
Louisville
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Posted 19 Dec 2008 1:02 pm
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Jim,
With all due respect the pickups can be wired to achieve what I'm after. My 335 was RE-WIRED by my tech to achieve this. It did not come from the factory like this.
Lollar said nothing about the wiring of the pickups and I didn't ask him. We were discussing only the tone of the pickups. I understand you had only a quote to go on, but them's the facts.
| Quote: |
| Also, there's no reason to have one pickup turned up to 10 and the other on 1, if you turn one below about 8 it's effectively disconnected from the circuit but you will have a slightly mellower tone than if you used the switch due to having that resistance in the circuit, but this can be used to advantage.... say if you want the bridge pickup sound but it's a little too bright when you use the PU selector, you just roll the neck PU volume down to 8 or so and you have the bridge PU with a little less highs than if you switched to it with the switch, same for the neck PU if you roll the bridge PU volume down to 8 or lower, it's really not necessary going any lower than that. |
Yes, but this makes the overall volume less. I apologize if I don't possess the technical vocabulary to explain this, and I'm afraid as a result you're just not understanding my objective. I want the volume controls to be independent of one another. I want the change in tone by mixing the pickups at different levels, but not the loss of volume that results from one of the two pickups being less than 10.
As I'm typing this response I see Henry's latest post. YES! Exactly. I can do without the master volume option. Thanks for letting me know I'm not crazy!
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Justin |
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Justin Hughes
From:
Louisville
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Posted 19 Dec 2008 1:05 pm
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| Quote: |
| FWIW I like the volumes to work that way too, but it isn't necessary, they can still be used to mix the PU as they are, I don't know why that is not understood...that's why they're there, the guitar companies aren't so stupid they put unusable controls on a guitar... again, when you have both PUs on, you don't need to turn them one the way down, once it's at about 8 it's pretty much off... |
Yes, Jim, this is true. You are correct. BUT, when wired this way you are decreasing the pickups output to the amp to acheive that tonal difference. I want to hit the front end of my amp with all I've got.
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Justin |
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Jim Phelps
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
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Posted 19 Dec 2008 1:14 pm
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| Justin Hughes wrote: |
Jim,
With all due respect the pickups can be wired to achieve what I'm after. My 335 was RE-WIRED by my tech to achieve this. It did not come from the factory like this. |
No, but it DID come with two identical PU's, the Tele Custom does NOT. That's where this problem is, and what you seem determined to overlook.
| Justin Hughes wrote: |
Lollar said nothing about the wiring of the pickups and I didn't ask him. We were discussing only the tone of the pickups. I understand you had only a quote to go on, but them's the facts. |
| Justin Hughes wrote: |
I want the change in tone by mixing the pickups at different levels, but not the loss of volume that results from one of the two pickups being less than 10. |
Lollar didn't need to say anything about the wiring, as it's totally irrelevant. He DID say that the neck PU always overpowers the bridge PU, and that's what is relevant and is WHY you have the loss in volume.
I'll say it one last time. When you turn down the neck pickup a bit, you get the loss in volume because you TURNED DOWN THE LOUDEST PICKUP. Wiring it differently will NOT change that.
| Justin Hughes wrote: |
As I'm typing this response I see Henry's latest post. YES! Exactly. I can do without the master volume option. Thanks for letting me know I'm not crazy! |
Not necessarily... you BOTH might be crazy! 
BTW, I have been rewiring guitars and building pickups since about 1973. Played your stuff at your band's MySpace page, nice sound.
Carry on, have fun, good luck. |
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Henry Nagle
From:
Santa Rosa, California
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Posted 19 Dec 2008 2:09 pm
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Ok, Jim. I see now what you are saying. It's quite true, but pretty much unrelated to the way Justin wants to wire his volume knobs. He doesn't want to equalize the pickup volumes- he wants to use one pickup primarily and blend in the other just enough to get the right tonal balance. This means you are never switching from one pickup to another and therefore will not notice a volume difference.
By the way, on my deluxe, the pickups are wound the same. I haven't tested them, but they have the same part number. When I first got the guitar I noticed a significant difference in pickup volume. Part of this I fixed by adjusting pickup and pole piece height. Then, when I started to blend the pickups, essentially using the bridge pickup volume as a tone knob, it didn't bother me any more. In fact, my pickup selector broke and wouldn't stay in the bridge position. I didn't bother fixing it for three years. When my pots started going out (3 of them within 3 months on a 34 year old guitar!) I replaced them right away, 'cause I need them!
I do see what you're saying, though. I wasn't grokking that for a bit. Sorry for the misunderstanding. |
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Jim Phelps
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
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Posted 19 Dec 2008 2:33 pm
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| Henry Nagle wrote: |
| He doesn't want to equalize the pickup volumes- he wants to use one pickup primarily and blend in the other just enough to get the right tonal balance. This means you are never switching from one pickup to another and therefore will not notice a volume difference. |
Right, that's exactly the way I play the '72 Tele Custom, with the PU switch on BOTH, the volume knobs on 10, cutting back one or the other to maybe 9 to 9-1/2 to get more of one or the other. It is wired as original. I have no problem blending the pickups.
The misunderstanding we seem to be having is where you (and he) say, "therefore will not notice a volume difference.". I'm trying to show that this is not possible with this guitar with the stock pickups, no matter how it's wired, because the neck humbucker is MUCH louder than the standard Tele single coil in the bridge. This guitar has a hot PU in the neck, where there is already the most string vibration and the most signal, and a weak PU in the bridge where there is the least string vibration. The result should be obvious.
If you turn down that neck pickup at all, you will notice a volume loss, no matter how it's wired because when they are both on full up, that pickup is making much more sound than the bridge PU, also its tone is different, it has more midrange freqs and if you cut some of its output, you cut out those mids too which are making up a lot of its sound and volume, so you lose a lot of volume... but I don't seem to be convincing anyone, so I'll just back off and let it be.
Last edited by Jim Phelps on 19 Dec 2008 3:02 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Henry Nagle
From:
Santa Rosa, California
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Posted 19 Dec 2008 2:42 pm
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| Gotcha. Probably that issue is more severe on a custom than a deluxe. On the bright side, it's easy to find high quality replacement tele bridge pickups! Not so with wide range humbuckers. Do you have a picture of your guitar, Jim? I'm pretty attached to mine. I don't use any other electric guitars anymore. |
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Jim Phelps
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
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Posted 19 Dec 2008 2:48 pm
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| Henry Nagle wrote: |
| Gotcha. Probably that issue is more severe on a custom than a deluxe. |
MUCH! You have two identical PU's. Output-wise, these on the Custom are totally mismatched...the reason I had no interest in this model as soon as I knew about it. I bought this one off Ebay in about 2000, thinking the difference in PU outputs wouldn't matter as I'd been running all my guitars through my Goodrich lightbeam volume pedal for years now, and with it I can make any adjustments in volume that I need.
The silver disk is a 1972 Cinco Pesos Mexican coin, I stuck it there to cover a small hole where the previous owner had put a small switch. I wired it back to original. He also cut the pickguard where the controls are so they can be removed without having to remove the entire pickguard, and part of the pickguard above the bridge has been cut, and the body has numerous dents, dings and scratches. It sounds great...despite the neck PU being much louder than the bridge... The neck is dated 3 March 72, so it's one of the early ones. Has the old bridge with 3 pieces, I think they went to a 6-piece in '73.
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Henry Nagle
From:
Santa Rosa, California
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Posted 19 Dec 2008 3:48 pm
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| Very nice! I like those guitars a lot. There are some duds, but the nice ones are very special. |
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Justin Hughes
From:
Louisville
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Posted 19 Dec 2008 7:48 pm
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I know I'm not stupid, but I'll admit I'm not a pickup wiring expert and my parents were in junior high in 1973. I'm confident, Jim, you know what you're talking about, but I know for sure there is a difference in the pickup wiring in my 335 after it was rewired. I understand what you're getting at concerning the two different pickups' output. So, I'm going to replace the electronics in my friend's guitar with the new Lollar bridge pickup. I'll wire it how I feel will be best (what does my bandmate know) and post the results here. I'll likely have a damned mess on my hands and be begging for help!
My 335 type guitar is actually an Epiphone Supernova. I currently have a Seymour Duncan Phat Cat in the neck position and a TV Jones TVTRON PowerTron in the bridge.
You guys have the real deals! Very nice.
Thanks guys.
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Justin |
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Justin Hughes
From:
Louisville
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Justin Hughes
From:
Louisville
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Posted 8 Jan 2009 6:39 pm
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I just wanted to post an update after I rewired the guitar. We were on the road for a few dates when I did the work (in a hotel room no less) and I didn't take the time for photos. I wired the guitar for "independent volume controls" as one of the links above shows with the addition of a treble bleed mod on the neck pickup volume pot. It works just as I wanted and was discussed.
Thanks for everyone for your contributions!
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Justin |
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