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Topic: Kevlar |
Rick Hulett
From:
Hood River, OR
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Posted 24 Jun 2008 9:53 am |
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Just wondering if any builders have ever experimented with Kevlar. I'm not a material scientist, but from what I understand Kevlar is a very stiff, yet light material. I'm not sure what the tone would be like, but it seems like it might cure cabinet drop. How about making the pedal rack, levers and legs out of kevlar? It seems like you might could end up with a very light guitar. Just speculating, tell me what's wrong with it.
Rick
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Derby D10, Hilton, Peavey 112 |
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Stu Schulman
From:
Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)
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Posted 24 Jun 2008 10:08 am
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Hey Rick,I went to a NAMM show once and they had a snare drum head made out of Kevlar and it had a 2" hole in it and it still worked,Strong stuff.
_________________
Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 24 Jun 2008 12:18 pm Re: Kevlar
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| Rick Hulett wrote: |
Just wondering if any builders have ever experimented with Kevlar. I'm not a material scientist, but from what I understand Kevlar is a very stiff, yet light material. I'm not sure what the tone would be like, but it seems like it might cure cabinet drop. How about making the pedal rack, levers and legs out of kevlar? It seems like you might could end up with a very light guitar. Just speculating, tell me what's wrong with it.
Rick |
MSA uses carbon fiber, which is a somewhat similar material. Kevlar is tougher and slightly lighter, but the carbon fiber is more rigid and resonant, and thus it's probably a better choice for our application.
Incidentally, the MSA Millennium does use carbon fiber for the levers, legs, and the pedal board! |
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Lavelle Pierce
From:
huntsvile,ar 72740
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Posted 24 Jun 2008 12:27 pm
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| i use to make kavlar boats and ar light and tuff |
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Ronnie Boettcher
From:
Brunswick Ohio, USA
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Posted 24 Jun 2008 12:52 pm
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Maybe I am in a different world, but I prefer a heavy steel, over any of the light ones. They don't do the dance, and let others do the dancing, while we play the music.
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Sho-Bud LDG, Martin D28, Ome trilogy 5 string banjo, Ibanez 4-string bass, dobro, fiddle, and a tubal cain. Life Member of AFM local 142 |
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Rick Hulett
From:
Hood River, OR
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Posted 24 Jun 2008 1:15 pm
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I figured somebody had tried this. Carbon fiber that is. So what was the result? How did they sound? (The MSA I'm talking about)
Ronnie, that's a good point. When I originally thought of Kevlar, it wasn't necessarily to save weight, but to provide a stiffer body that wouldn't have any cabinet drop.
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Derby D10, Hilton, Peavey 112 |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 24 Jun 2008 2:56 pm
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| Cabinet drop is not all caused by cabinet flex. It is the sum of tiny amounts of flex and clearance in all the parts from the changer, through the body, to the roller nut and key head. My MSA Millennium S12U has cabinet drop. The tone is similar to other modern pedal steel guitars. |
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Rick Hulett
From:
Hood River, OR
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Posted 24 Jun 2008 3:18 pm
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That makes sense. So much for that idea.
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Derby D10, Hilton, Peavey 112 |
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Paddy Long
From:
Christchurch, New Zealand
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Posted 24 Jun 2008 3:34 pm
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Well it would certainly be bullet proof  |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 24 Jun 2008 4:20 pm
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| Rick, some amount of cabinet drop is measurable in most modern pedal steels, as well as a lot of the older ones. Though some players seem to worry excessively about it, it's really not a big concern for most of us. IMHO, making small manual adjustments for these minor deficiencies is part of what makes a really good musician. |
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Rick Hulett
From:
Hood River, OR
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Posted 24 Jun 2008 4:55 pm
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Good backup for the chicken wire 
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Derby D10, Hilton, Peavey 112 |
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Jack Mattison
From:
North Bend, Wa
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Posted 24 Jun 2008 5:19 pm kevlar
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They used "kevlar" to sow up the rip in my rotator cuff...... Really strong stuff and the sound is great from my arm!!!  |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 24 Jun 2008 6:50 pm
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| Stu Schulman wrote: |
| Hey Rick,I went to a NAMM show once and they had a snare drum head made out of Kevlar and it had a 2" hole in it and it still worked,Strong stuff. |
The same guys who made the drum heads experimented with banjo heads and made 3 prototypes. Greg Deering had one of them and told me it took the sound of his banjo into the stratosphere.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 24 Jun 2008 7:11 pm
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| Mike Perlowin wrote: |
The same guys who made the drum heads experimented with banjo heads and made 3 prototypes. Greg Deering had one of them and told me it took the sound of his banjo into the stratosphere. |
Mike,
Does b0b know about this?? |
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Eugene Cole
From:
near Washington Grove, MD, USA
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Posted 24 Jun 2008 8:17 pm Kevlar applications in the PSG realm
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| Rick Hulett wrote: |
Just wondering if any builders have ever experimented with Kevlar. I'm not a material scientist, but from what I understand Kevlar is a very stiff, yet light material. I'm not sure what the tone would be like, but it seems like it might cure cabinet drop. How about making the pedal rack, levers and legs out of Kevlar? It seems like you might could end up with a very light guitar. Just speculating, tell me what's wrong with it.
Rick |
I have never built a PSG from scratch. I am rebuilding an old Emmons; but this does not make me an authority on PSG construction in wood metal, or any other material. I am simply brain-storming here and trying to offer a little insight in to the nature of Kevlar for those of you that are not familiar with it at all.
Well Kevlar is interesting stuff. One wants to use Carbide scissors to cut the cloth. It wreaks havoc on conventional scissors even high carbon steel scissors.
Kevlar is not inherently stiff. Which makes it particularly suitable for applications which requires great strength but some flexibility and resilience when subjected to external forces. So it is a good choice for applications like boat masts, boat hulls, body armor, and cord/rope that need to have minimal stretch.
In body armor one wants to eliminate penetration of the bullet; which certainly has its points (medically, hollow point, wad cutter, and otherwise). Kevlar allows the bullet to be stopped and the weave of the Kevlar distributes the stored energy in the bullet over a larger area because the fiber is axially strong but still flexible. With many bullets, the Kevlar fiber is strong enough on the axis of the fiber that it will not yield to the force. But it does flex and distribute the energy. Of course one may end of with many broken bones and massive internal injuries which can still kill you. But Kevlar is really remarkable in its ability to do what it does in this application. On a side note: most of the Kevlar body armor sold is intended to stop common pistol cartridges only and it will not stop the penetration of most of the common center fire rifle cartridges. So if you are confronted with someone wearing body armor grab your rifle instead of your pistol.
To create a stiff structure with Kevlar (or carbon fiber for that matter) for a PSG body one must create a 3D structure with substantial depth/thickness. These dimensions are not that different from the dimensional thickness of an aluminum bodied PSG (on this point I am substantially oversimplifying). But the net weight can be substantially lower than an instrument comprised of Maple, aluminum, steel, particle board, or whatever else you may try.
Carbon fiber proves to be problematic in bicycle frames because it losses it rigidity which is why most everyone seeking a lighter weight bicycle still chooses titanium or aluminum for their frames. I Would think that Kevlar would have a similar problem. But bicycle frames unlike PSG's tend to be comprised of very thin beams. Additionally PSG's are not subjected to the same endless high force pedaling that bicycles are.
The only Carbon Fiber Steel Guitars I am familiar with are the Harmos non-pedal Steels and the MSA Millenium PSG's. The Harmos instruments are comprised of a complex matrix of thin rods which is IMO a very clever design and application. The MSA Millenium guitars I have heard are great guitars mechanically and the tone was pleasant to my ear. However the MSA Millenium is only available as an S12, D10, or SD10; and no other configurations are currently available. I am not aware of any other PSG builders that are planning to incorporate Kevalr or Carbon Fiber in to the construction of the PSG's which they are manufacturing.
So The question I am asking myself is where could Kevlar be utilized in the realm of things PSG. My thoughts at the moment are:
* The non-axial resistance to stretching could (properly engineered of course) be utilized to reduce cabinet drop. Though neither of my MSA nor my Sierra seem to have enough drop to create substantial tuning problems when the raises & lowers are invoked.
* Kevlar laminates could be added to the construction of PSG bodies in wood and/or carbon fiber.
* Kevlar reenforced instrument cases, rack cases, and storage-seats are certainly reasonable possibilities.
* Kevlar composite pull-rods could certainly be utilized. Kevlar Push-rods: probably not a good application for the material.
* Kevlar pedal bars are a possibility but I am not convinced that they would be any better than a carbon fiber, titanium, or aluminum pedal bar would be. Except for its prohibitive cost I would think that titanium would be my choice for building a pedal bar with regard to weight and structural properties.
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Regards
-- Eugene <sup>at</sup> FJ45.com
PixEnBar.com
Cole-Luthierie.com
FJ45.com
Sierra U14 8+5 my copedent, 1972 MSA D10 8+4, and nothing in the Bank. 8^) |
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Kevin Mincke
From:
Farmington, MN (Twin Cities-South Metro) USA
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Posted 27 Jun 2008 6:59 am Re: Kevlar applications in the PSG realm
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"In body armor one wants to eliminate penetration of the bullet; which certainly has its points (medically, hollow point, wad cutter, and otherwise). Kevlar allows the bullet to be stopped and the weave of the Kevlar distributes the stored energy in the bullet over a larger area because the fiber is axially strong but still flexible."
Yep! I wear it everyday.........there's no cheaper insurance but limited to the other factors already mentioned above. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 27 Jun 2008 8:23 am
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| Mike Perlowin wrote: |
| The same guys who made the drum heads experimented with banjo heads and made 3 prototypes. Greg Deering had one of them and told me it took the sound of his banjo into the stratosphere. |
Is this a joke?  If not, I hope that it soon becomes the standard. The stratosphere is always at least 30 miles away - well out of hearing range. 
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-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 27 Jun 2008 9:22 am
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| b0b wrote: |
| Mike Perlowin wrote: |
| The same guys who made the drum heads experimented with banjo heads and made 3 prototypes. Greg Deering had one of them and told me it took the sound of his banjo into the stratosphere. |
Is this a joke? |
No, but the company is out of business, and they only made 3 banjo heads anyway. The quote from Greg Deering is real. He loved the head, and would have ordered them in quantity and offered them as an option on his banjos if it had been possible.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Alan Faulkner
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 28 Jun 2008 3:48 pm
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A friend of mine works for an airline in the maintenence department. He has gotten trained on Carbon Fibre (CF) repairs because new aircraft are gradually being built with it due to it's lightness and stiffness etc.
I had heard about the health problems associated with it as another friend told me about the first F-18 that crashed in Canada about 20 years ago. The fellow who drove the bulldozer that pushed the aircraft remains underground became very sick and died not long after. In the autopsy they discovered his lungs were filled with CF and the very hard pieces were like little needles that punctured the cells of his lung and that was the cause of death.
My friend says that when he repairs CF he wears a full hazmat suit from head to toe with repirators, the works.
When they break, the fibers release a puff of little almost invisible needles, like the plants with the big bulbs that we used to call "stink bombs". These little needles are virtually indestructible, incredibly sharp, little killers that can do incredible damage to us.
I wouldn't even wear a helmet made out of it. It is impossible to live today without being surrounded by it but just be aware of the danger.
I can only assume that they would make an incredible sounding guitar that even your groupies could lug around for you... because of the incredible stiffness of the stuff.
I would tend to leave construction of or repair of that stuff to people who know what they are doing.
I am glad the question was asked, so I could pass this on.
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Cheers,
Al
Sho~Bud
Model 6160 Serial # 9397
Dark green dye and yellow/brown inlay |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 28 Jun 2008 4:08 pm
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Any non-biodegradeable fibers or powders inhaled into the lungs are bad news. Not only carbon fiber, but also kevlar fibers, fiberglass, regular glass, some grades of asbestos, coal dust, practically any metal dust, and even diatomaceous earth (common in swimming pool filters) can also be injurious. Even some species of wood fibers are harmful. The main caution is grinding, sanding, or cutting operations that will make light particles that easily become airborne.
Even demolition machine operators tearing down minor structures should observe reasonable cautions, which might only be using water spray to keep down the dust, and wearing a respirator. I've served several years as a safety officer, and it's standard practice when dealing with any unknown material to never go in unprotected. |
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Alvin Blaine
From:
Picture Rocks, Arizona, USA
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Posted 29 Jun 2008 12:26 am
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| Mike Perlowin wrote: |
| b0b wrote: |
| Mike Perlowin wrote: |
| The same guys who made the drum heads experimented with banjo heads and made 3 prototypes. Greg Deering had one of them and told me it took the sound of his banjo into the stratosphere. |
Is this a joke? |
No, but the company is out of business, and they only made 3 banjo heads anyway. The quote from Greg Deering is real. He loved the head, and would have ordered them in quantity and offered them as an option on his banjos if it had been possible. |
Greg somehow made a deal with the guy, to produce the Kevlar banjo heads, and they are offered through Deering.
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http://www.oldbluesound.com/about.htm
http://www.facebook.com/cowboytwang |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 29 Jun 2008 12:41 am
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| Alvin Blaine wrote: |
Greg somehow made a deal with the guy, to produce the Kevlar banjo heads, and they are offered through Deering.
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Greg made a deal with somebody to produce the heads, but Steve Griego, the guy who made first ones did in fact go out of business. Maybe Steve started the company up again, or maybe somebody else is making them.
The original heads were yellow, and the kevlar strands were woven together.
BTW Steve is a drummer and we did some gigs together around '81 or '82
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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