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Author Topic:  Comparing Tube and SS amp ratings
Don Poland


From:
Hanover, PA.
Post  Posted 16 Apr 2008 8:34 am    
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I notice that most every tube amp has a lower listed wattage than most any comparable SS amp. Can someone explain the differences to me. In other words, if I have an 80 watt Peavey 112, how does that compare to, lets say, a 30 Watt tube amp? Also, is it possible to piggy back a 112 with a tube amp and just use the speaker of the 112 thru the tube amp as an external speaker so that I would effectively have a tube amp and 2 speakers??? Inquiring minds want to know Surprised

Sorry if this seems silly to those more informed, but ya know, everyone had to learn somewhere.
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Donny Hinson

 

From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
Post  Posted 16 Apr 2008 2:40 pm    
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Electrically, watts are watts. You have to keep in mind, though, that tube distortion is more pleasing (in general) than solid-state distortion. Thus, a tube amp of, say, 50 watts, can be overdriven to sound like 100 watts from a solid state amp.

All this, however, must be taken with something else in mind, and that is TONE. You can't stay in the same room with a VOX AC-30 with the treble cranked up, and you'd probably never be seeing 30 watts, either. Take a NV 400, though, turn up the bass a little, and the 50-75 watts you might use playing some C6th would seem quite pleasant.

In short, tube amps can distort, and even deliver more than their rated power, without sounding real bad. Not so with solid-state stuff.

Also, when it comes to power, tone is everything. Treble takes very little power and bass takes tons of it. That's why you might see someone famous using a small VOX amp miked, but you'll never see someone with a 15-25 watt bass amp miked.

Just remember, 15-30 watts of treble can be downright painful, but only 50 watts of bass is pretty wimpy.

Comparisons of tube and solid-state gear must take this into consideration.
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Don Poland


From:
Hanover, PA.
Post  Posted 16 Apr 2008 4:34 pm     Re: Comparing Tube and SS amp ratings
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Thanks Donny, I appreciate your help. I have been quite confused with the tube amps I have seen listed with lower watts and everyone talks about how good they sound. Also any light you can shed on this??
Don Poland wrote:
.....Also, is it possible to piggy back a 112 with a tube amp and just use the speaker of the 112 thru the tube amp as an external speaker so that I would effectively have a tube amp and 2 speakers??? Inquiring minds want to know...


Thanks in advance.
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Rick Johnson


From:
Wheelwright, Ky USA
Post  Posted 17 Apr 2008 4:13 am    
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Donny
I like your opinions on tube vs. solid state.

Very well stated.

Rick

www.rickjohnsoncabs.com
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Jim Sliff


From:
Lawndale California, USA
Post  Posted 17 Apr 2008 5:17 am    
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Donny put it very well.

Without getting too technical, there are things called "odd" and "even" order harmonics,and each distort differently. The distortion of each "fools" the human ear in different ways. Another simple explanation is that tube amps use even order harmonics, distorting them in a smoothly-increasing amount that can sound much louder before it's noticable "distorted". Solid-state and DSP (digital signal processor) amps introduce ODD order harmonics instead, which sound harsh at relatively low levels. So while a tube amp may be very slightly distorted when loud, it sounds very clean and warm in comparison to a solid-state amp at the same volume level (with odd order harmonics distorting in a harsh way).
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David Doggett


From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
Post  Posted 17 Apr 2008 9:44 am    
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Whether a tube amp is designed to play clean or dirty makes a big difference. From my practical experience, for whatever reason, a silver-face Twin (100-135 watts) seems to me as loud as a solid-state NV400 (200 watts). And at top volume the Twin sounds better. At mid and lower volumes there is not as much difference in tone.

But a SF Twin was designed to play clean to the top. At top volume you get some tube "bloom" and sparkle, but no serious distortion. Most modern tube guitar amps will not do that. They are designed to start breaking up in the middle volume range. So no 100 watt modern tube guitar amp I have ever tried will give as much clean volume as a NV400, or even a NV112.

Black-face Twins were only 85 watts, and most will break up some before they get to top volume (depending on how they are set up). The '65 Twin Reissue is modeled after the BF Twin. So BF Twins and the RI might not be able to compete with a clean playing 200 watt SS steel amp.
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Post  Posted 17 Apr 2008 11:43 am    
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I think that 3x is a good rule of thumb. You need 3x the power in a solid state amp to match a tube amp.
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Jim Sliff


From:
Lawndale California, USA
Post  Posted 18 Apr 2008 10:57 pm    
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b0b's number is a good rule of thumb. There are a lot of variables, but it's a good starting point for comparison.
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1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
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Billy Murdoch

 

From:
Glasgow, Scotland, U.K.
Post  Posted 19 Apr 2008 12:19 am    
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I never did, and probably never will understand electric/electronics where amps are concerned.
How many of us out there think that watts is LOUD ?
Watts is power,where amps are concerned is that power in or power out?
I have always found it confusing to see amps rated in watts only,why can't We see a rating which will say an amp will produce a sound level of X decibels at a distance of X feet ?
Any help appreciated.

Billy
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Curt Langston


Post  Posted 19 Apr 2008 12:19 pm    
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Quote:
So no 100 watt modern tube guitar amp I have ever tried will give as much clean volume as a NV400, or even a NV112.


A Rivera M100 Combo will stay clean as loud as you want to go. I have one, and it is outstanding. Loud, clean, and warm.

Very heavy, but outstanding. IMHO.

I'd never sell it................
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Post  Posted 19 Apr 2008 12:45 pm    
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My 40 watt Mesa Maverick Prototype (4 EL84 tubes) produces considerably more clean volume than a Peavey NV112.
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Paul Arntson


From:
Washington, USA
Post  Posted 20 Apr 2008 9:53 am    
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...

Last edited by Paul Arntson on 15 Sep 2008 5:57 am; edited 2 times in total
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Don Davis Jr

 

From:
Georgia, USA
Post  Posted 20 Apr 2008 1:17 pm    
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Would anyone hazard a guess as to how the maximum clean volume would compare between a stock-speakered (Utahs, Oxfords, etc. not JBL's) 100 watt 70's SF Twin Reverb and a stock Nashville 112?
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Post  Posted 20 Apr 2008 8:26 pm    
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Don Davis Jr wrote:
Would anyone hazard a guess as to how the maximum clean volume would compare between a stock-speakered (Utahs, Oxfords, etc. not JBL's) 100 watt 70's SF Twin Reverb and a stock Nashville 112?

I expect that the Twin would compare in volume to at least four N112 amps. I test drove two N112's once and at top volume they felt very clamped compared to the open headroom I was getting (at the time) from a 50/50 Mesa power amp. I could definitely feel the ceiling. I've never felt restricted in volume when using a 100 watt tube power amp.

I have a Webb that's rated at 225 watts. I used to stack a 60 watt Mesa/Boogie Mark IIB on top of it, and the respective headroom of the two amps matched up pretty well. When I switched to the 40 watt Mesa Maverick (my current amp), the Webb became the more powerful part of the stack.

Sometimes I use a rack with a Mesa 20/20 into two 12" alnico speakers. The volume/headroom level is slightly less than the pair of Nashville 112's. Based on that, I'd "hazard a guess" that the N112 is roughly equivalent to a 25 watt tube amp.
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Jim Sliff


From:
Lawndale California, USA
Post  Posted 20 Apr 2008 9:32 pm    
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Quote:
watts is power,where amps are concerned is that power in or power out?


It depends. Some amp makers print the power requirement on the back of the amp, and many players confuse that with output. I still see eBay ads now and then for a "200 watt Super Reverb" or similar mistakes.

Power requirement has nothing to do with power output...and power output has very little to do with volume (loudness).

Two absolutely identical (except speakers) amplifiers of any type can have dramatically different usable (or total) volume levels simply due to choice of speakers. An inefficient speaker may cut the volume of an amp in half.

However, "inefficient" is a kind of misnomer. Many bass drivers are not that efficient and need huge amounts of power to drive them to a usable volume - it's just part of the design.

Another common mistake is often heard: "a 100 watt amp is twice as loud as a 50 watt amp." All else being equal, doubling power gives you only about a 10% volume increase - approximately 3 decibels, almost undetectable by the human ear. But more power WILL often give you a cleaner sound at high volume.

The basic point,though, is that output power ratings have little to do with how loud an amp is.
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No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional
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Billy Murdoch

 

From:
Glasgow, Scotland, U.K.
Post  Posted 21 Apr 2008 1:01 am    
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Thanks Jim,
Your post is very informative.

Best regards
Billy
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Don Davis Jr

 

From:
Georgia, USA
Post  Posted 22 Apr 2008 2:48 pm    
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b0b wrote:
Based on that, I'd "hazard a guess" that the N112 is roughly equivalent to a 25 watt tube amp.


So, if I'm understanding correctly, we're saying here that a Deluxe Reverb will generate about the same clean volume as a Peavey Nashville 112?

Wow, I would have guessed the NV112 to be significantly louder, at least in terms of clean.
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James Collett

 

From:
San Dimas, CA
Post  Posted 22 Apr 2008 3:05 pm    
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Don- it depends on the tube amp. A 65', no, those (stock at least) don't have much h/r
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Don Poland


From:
Hanover, PA.
Post  Posted 22 Apr 2008 3:27 pm    
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b0b wrote:
Based on that, I'd "hazard a guess" that the N112 is roughly equivalent to a 25 watt tube amp.


So, a 50 or 60 watt tube amp would simply blow away a N112?? Thanks, that answers my first question. Now, if someone had a 50 watt tube amp and plugged into the speaker of the N112 wouldn't they effectivley have a 50 watt tube amp and 2 speakers (the one on the tube amp and the one on the N112)???

Thanks guys
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Gil Berry

 

From:
Westminster, CA, USA
Post  Posted 22 Apr 2008 4:47 pm    
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Don, you have to be careful about plugging in extra speakers....The output stages of amplifiers are designed to match a certain impedance load..i.e., 8 ohms, 4 ohms, etc. If the amp you're powering up was designed for an 8 ohm load, and you plug in an extra 4 ohm speaker in parallel with the 8 ohm speaker it came with, you now have a 2-2/3 ohm load on a circuit designed for 8 ohms....that's a good recipe for smoke. Best rule is to check with the manufacturer before adding extra speakers unless you really know what you're doing.
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Don Davis Jr

 

From:
Georgia, USA
Post  Posted 22 Apr 2008 5:07 pm    
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James Collett wrote:
Don- it depends on the tube amp. A 65', no, those (stock at least) don't have much h/r


James,

I assume by '65 you're talking about the reissue. Even though thy're not made like the originals, aren't they supposed to be the sonic equivalent? So I guess headroom is exactly what I'm talking about when I say "clean volume". I've never compared them side-by-side like many of you, but I guess I would have thought the 112 would play clean a good bit louder than the DR would.

And Don Poland, I'll take a swing at your remaining question. Even if you could figure out a way to do the actual hookup you're talking about, the 4 ohm Peavey Blue Marvel combined with a probable 8 ohm speaker in your 50 watt tube amp would present an approximate 2.5 ohm load to your 50 watt tube amp. Most such amps would not be happy with that load and would sooner or later become a test bed for your smoke detectors. There would be much better ways to accomplish what you want to do with an 8 ohm 12" extension cab and an 8 ohm internal speaker in your amp, assuming your tube amp could handle the resulting 4 ohm load.
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David Doggett


From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
Post  Posted 22 Apr 2008 6:44 pm    
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Deluxe Reverbs were not the cleanest playing Fender amps. I'm thinking a '65 RI or a real '65 DR would not have as much clean headroom as a NV112. However, if you wanted to give up the crunch, a tech could set up a DR to play colder and cleaner, and it might compete well with a NV112, especially with a loud, efficient speaker like a JBL or an EV.

Regarding adding the 4 ohm NV112 speaker to a 50 watt 8 ohm tube amp, you would not want to do that in parallel (2.5 ohm load). But if you wire the two speakers in series, that would be a 12 ohm load, which is not so different than 8 ohms, and would work pretty well. A tube amp would prefer to see a slightly higher load than a drastically lower load. But I don't know how much, if any extra volume you would get.

As long as you have the whole NV112 combo there, the way to go would be to run two cords out of your volume pedal, one to the 50 watt tube amp, and one to the NV112. Now you got 130 watts of mixed tube and solid state power. That might be awesome. The two different speakers and two different tones of the amps would compliment each other and create a very complex and full sound. Even with the tube amp breaking up a little, the SS amp would be cutting through with clean definition. And you would have two sets of tone controls to go crazy with. Smile
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Jim Peters


From:
St. Louis, Missouri, USA, R.I.P.
Post  Posted 22 Apr 2008 9:08 pm    
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I have a SF Deluxe and a NV112, and have used both for steel and both for guitar. The 112 easily blows away the stock(except for speaker) Deluxe when using steel for clean volume and headroom. The 112 holds it own volume-wise on regular guitar, but has that sterile solid state quality. A tube screamer into the 112 actually sounded pretty good. Of course you can mod a Deluxe for cleaner louder, but then you are talking basically about a different amp. I will never again just bring one amp to a gig that I play steel and guitar, it's apples and oranges. JP
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Dan Tyack

 

From:
Olympia, WA USA
Post  Posted 24 Apr 2008 10:07 pm    
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My rule of thumb is bring the lowest watt tube amp that will cut the gig. Bring the highest watt transistor amp that you can afford or carry.
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David L. Donald


From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
Post  Posted 25 Apr 2008 8:12 am    
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Power into a LOAD is what counts,
and then how EFFICIENT is that load at moving air.

Studio monitors are rated in SPL at 1 meter for 1w.
Some guitar speakers also have a similar rating.
But ya gotta look for it. They don't push that spec,
unless they have an very efficient one.

OK, I used my newly built single end non-push-pull amp at a gig,
using my Warwick 2 10" cab that I regularly push
1,000watts SS through, and the little cab does well.

But suddenly my tube amp had no balls...
I couldn't be heard, it had gorgeous tone, but no volume.
The cabinet is VERY inefficient, but doesn't blow up easy.

Well next day I threw the amp chassis in a recently blown up
small 110w bass amp's cabinet; one 15"; it was LOUD,
I tried one 12" vintage Celestian in the same cab,
brighter, but also quite loud.

Went to play with the same band.
One song: TURN THAT DOWN...!!!

Pulled a 6L6 tube out...
with single end it's parallel, and you can do that.
Still a bit to loud, and bright,
put in a lower voltage rectifier tube
and so lower power to the tube.
The preamp got weaker too, but room volume was usable.
I just cranked the preamp section harder.

Went back and this week they said too loud still,
So I am dropping the 6L6 tube and going back down
to one 6V6 tube, and the one 15".
As originally designed, 1 or 2 6V6 tubes.
But being self biased, it handled the bigger tubes no problem.

This is a 5-15 watt amp and I am blowing the band out with it.

It's not how MUCH power is rated,
but how it is applied to it's load.
I have a low impedance, but HUGE, output transformer,
it apparently converts the tube pretty well
into driving force for the speakers.

Changing speakers changes the load for
the amp THROUGH the transformer. EVERY SPEAKER.
They all have slightly different rises
in impedance over frequency. That's why there are
so many speaker choices; they ARE much different.

Changing the dial from 4 to 8 ohms without changing speakers,
actually changes a tube amps wattage rating.
You have changed it's impedance load and so
the calculated power ouput.

I can push more air if the speaker is
more efficient or more efficient in a
particularly suitable range.
BUT the amp might not like it's impedance curve
and waste power in ranges you don't need.

Leo Fender was brilliant at matching
parts together to make something work well for
a reasonable amount of time (tubes) and efficiently.
And when NOT efficient, because it made sense tone wise.
And do it at a profit margin that worked year in and year out.

Class A SE tube power amps create odd and even harmonics.
Class A Tube preamps create odd and even harmonics
AB1 or AB2 Push-Pull tube power amps ONLY create ODD harmonics,
BUT can pass on those EVEN harmonics created by the preamp.

One thing many people like is that combination of
ODD harmonics a power adds to a 'bit' of ODD + EVEN from the preamps.

JUST preamp distortion can sound weenie,
hence the many real tube pedals that don't
make you a guitar god just by pluggin them in.

But if they are used to push over the distortion edge
of the power amp section, then it is a cool sound indeed.

I have my amp set to modify the distortion points
and TYPES of preamp final stage distortions
before it feeds the power amp tube.

Depending on the song I can
get a bit of preamp grit earlier and kick in
the power tube at a picking controlable point.
And do this at different volumes for different
songs and guitar settings, within an envelope
of output tube sizes.
I am trying to get it down to 3 set points on a switch.
Now it is a potentiometer.

I am shortly going to deal with master volumes
and the typical loss of tone/brights when they are used.
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