The Steel Guitar Forum Store 

Post new topic Control by Cable-within-Tube
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Reply to topic
Author Topic:  Control by Cable-within-Tube
Alan Brookes


From:
Brummy living in Southern California
Post  Posted 17 Feb 2008 8:58 pm    
Reply with quote

Everyone is familiar with cable instruments, such as the Fenders, MultiKords, etc., but they all operate with the cable under tension, pulling on the mechanism.

Now imagine the cable of a car accelerator, and a camera's external shutter-release cable. They have cables within a tube. The advantage is that they don't need to be at constant tension. They can be coiled into any shape and still work. The reason is that the pressure is applied by the motion of the internal cable moving against the secured tube.

A pedal steel guitar built with such cables would need very little set-up time. You could even separate the pedal frame from the instrument, allowing a simple mechanism on a resonator guitar, for instance, or you could put a mechanism on a regular guitar.

Added 23Jun2011:
I'm resuscitating this thread because I'm about to start work on a converted MultiKord. See my latest comments. Very Happy
Any ideas ?


Last edited by Alan Brookes on 23 Jun 2011 1:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

richard burton


From:
Britain
Post  Posted 17 Feb 2008 10:19 pm    
Reply with quote

That's exactly how I built my first few steels.
This one here is a very early one, with the cables external.
I modified the design, and had all the (Bowden?) cables 'under the hood' on subsequent steels.





View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Brint Hannay

 

From:
Maryland, USA
Post  Posted 17 Feb 2008 11:08 pm    
Reply with quote

I may be mistaken, because I never have seen one "in the flesh", but I believe that's how the Pedal Pitch device for guitar made by MSA in the Seventies, and most notably used by Phil Baugh, worked.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZX6J0mgX4bc
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Eddie Cunningham

 

From:
Massachusetts, USA
Post  Posted 18 Feb 2008 8:40 am     Bicycle hand brake cable/tube
Reply with quote

I made one for a lap steel once using a bycycle hand brake cable/tube to lower one string and it worked out fine !! Is a simple basic operation . Maybe it just doesn't look as neat as straight rods ?? but it does work !! Eddie "C" ( the old non-pedal geezer )
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

James Collett

 

From:
San Dimas, CA
Post  Posted 18 Feb 2008 9:55 am    
Reply with quote

Seems like it would make more sense- no more annoying rattling, etc. of the undercarriage, and to change your copedent, just unscrew the tube and slide it on over! The only problem I foresee is on pedals with more than 1 change.
_________________
James Collett
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Darvin Willhoite


From:
Roxton, Tx. USA
Post  Posted 18 Feb 2008 6:43 pm    
Reply with quote

Here's pictures of my pedal device for a six string. I don't think this one was made by MSA, it looks quite different from Phil Baugh's. I've heard that Dekley may have made this one. Back to the original question, the cable action is very spongy, due to the cables stretching slightly. Once you get used to it it isn't too bad, but I would much rather have a positive, mechanical linkage like most steels.



_________________
Darvin Willhoite
MSA Millennium, Legend, and Studio Pro, Reese's restored Universal Direction guitar, as well as some older MSAs, several amps, new and old, and a Kemper Powerhead that I am really liking. Recently added a Zum D10, a Mullen RP, and a restored blue Rose, named the "Blue Bird" to the herd. Also, I have acquired and restored the plexiglass D10 MSA Classic again that was built as a demo in the early '70s. I also added a '74 lacquer P/P, with wood necks.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

James Collett

 

From:
San Dimas, CA
Post  Posted 18 Feb 2008 6:51 pm    
Reply with quote

Thicker Cables?
_________________
James Collett
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Donny Hinson

 

From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
Post  Posted 18 Feb 2008 7:03 pm    
Reply with quote

Bowden cables do have certain advantages; they're flexible, they can be made weatherproof, and they're very cheap. On the other hand, they can never be as friction-free or as easy to maintain as a simple rod mechanism.

The "time aspect" for setting up a steel is also pretty insignificant for most players. With my old MSA, I could go from "closed cases" to "ready-to-play" in about 3 minutes.

Alien
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

James Collett

 

From:
San Dimas, CA
Post  Posted 18 Feb 2008 7:20 pm    
Reply with quote

But what about more than one change/pedal? That seems tricky.
_________________
James Collett
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Jim Sliff


From:
Lawndale California, USA
Post  Posted 18 Feb 2008 8:21 pm    
Reply with quote

Jim Flynn of Lone Star Steel Guitars has build some models using "bike cable" type mechanisms and extremely light weight construction. From what I understand he's had those systems working very well - but as usual in the steel world, if it's not "normal" it's not overly popular, unless you're one of the larger producers like Carter, MSA etc.

He doesn't have pics on his current website, but ask him for pics of the "skeleton" and the cable-pull models. They are VERY intriguing, and he'll build them to spec - custom string spacing, number of strings, copedents, etc. - for an incredibly low price. I was considering an 8-string skeleton (still am, actually) and the proposed price for my wacked-out 9+2 was amazing...and his references were excellent.


Oh, yeah - one other thing I REALLY like - he mentions tone and volume controls on his main site page, something sorely lacking in most steels!
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Alan Brookes


From:
Brummy living in Southern California
Post  Posted 23 Jun 2011 1:40 pm    
Reply with quote

I'm thinking of putting a set of regular pedals on an old Harlin MultiKord which I'm restoring. It's been in pieces for several years now waiting its turn, and I think I should be able to get started on it in a few months. The problem is to transfer the downward thrust of the pedals to pull down the mechanism fingers, which, on a MultiKord are on the left, not on the right as in most pedal steels. I believe the reason that MultiKords were built with all the pedals on the left, in a semicircle, was because of the difficulty of angling the cables from any other place. This could be obviated by the use of bicycle brake cables.

What I shall end up with is a hybrid which won't look like a MultiKord. In fact I may build some other features into it not found on a Multi-Kord. I'm not worried about authenticity because the instrument I'm taking the parts from was completely trashed long before I got my hands on it, and I also have two other MultiKords in pristine condition.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Russ Wever

 

From:
Kansas City
Post  Posted 23 Jun 2011 6:19 pm    
Reply with quote

the Harmos pedal steel . . .

_________________
www.russface
www.russguru
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Alan Brookes


From:
Brummy living in Southern California
Post  Posted 24 Jun 2011 11:00 am    
Reply with quote

I'd love to see an underside view of that instrument.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Danny James

 

From:
Summerfield Florida USA
Post  Posted 25 Jun 2011 3:36 pm    
Reply with quote

Hey Alan,

I'm keeping an eye on you and that Multi-Kord hybrid your gonna end up with ! Idea Smile Oh Well

Danny
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Alan Brookes


From:
Brummy living in Southern California
Post  Posted 25 Jun 2011 3:50 pm    
Reply with quote

I shall be glad to have your input, Danny. Very Happy

To my mind, the Harlin mechanism is a magnificent piece of workmanship, and it's a shame that it didn't become the basis for all pedal steel mechanisms. It's one of the few mechanisms that allows you to change the copedant without having to turn the guitar upside-down. Very Happy

One of the things I can't understand is the idea that the mechanism was designed only to change tunings, and not to be activated while playing. If that were the case they would have built pedal locks into the instrument, so that you didn't have to apply constant pressure with the feet. I can't imagine anyone playing number after number with one or more pedals permanently held down with the feet. It would tire you out in no time. Shocked

Since the mechanism is to the left of the player I could quite easily build a resonator into the design. Cool

Before I start I have an experimental lap steel to build with illuminated frets and a fanned fretboard. If that works as well as I expect I may decide to incorporate those features into the Harlin hybrid. Cool Winking
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Dennis Brown

 

From:
Gowen, Mi. USA
Post  Posted 26 Jun 2011 4:24 am     Pedals on a G&L Fender
Reply with quote

I made this in the early 80's. Every thing was made of Lexon except the bike cables and hardware. It worked very well and was pretty quick on the tone return after releasing the pedals. It was a fun project. Dennis

View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Danny James

 

From:
Summerfield Florida USA
Post  Posted 26 Jun 2011 11:11 am    
Reply with quote

Alan,

With the tunings Harlin's used with their Multi-Kords we did release one pedal and depress another throughout a song while being played. Sometimes we depressed two pedals at the same time. I do this with the song "Silent Night" in one place.

Example when I play the song Harbor Lights, I use four different tunings throughout the song. A, A6th, D7added 9th, and C#mi.7th. I do this in order to play the harmony notes that go with the melody note and the chord that goes with it in two to 6 string combinations.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Danny James

 

From:
Summerfield Florida USA
Post  Posted 26 Jun 2011 11:24 am    
Reply with quote

Alan,

Check your e-mail.

Danny
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

William Johnson


From:
Statesboro, Georgia, USA
Post  Posted 27 Jun 2011 7:44 am     Electric servo-stepping motor controlled PSG in the future?
Reply with quote

Someone will come up with a servo-stepping motor control for pedal steels. You could program-in feel, etc. With this technology you would have NO visible cables, be much-much lighter, accurate and repeatable, and maybe less expensive to build, but would have to be plugged in electrical power source such as 120VAC outlet, batteries, phantom power (-48VDC) or maybe a 'beefed-up' USB connection! It could be done without a doubt if $$ allows.

What do you think?
_________________
William Johnson (Billy)
Statesboro, GA

Sho Bud Student / Emmons DB E9
Sierra DB E9 / ZUM DB E9 / Derby DB E9 Marlen E9 / BMI E9

Mosrite Ventures '69 / Gibson Cherry ES345 / Custom 'Billie-Tele' Telecaster / Gibson '78 J45 / Custom 'P-Strat' Squire Stratocaster / Epi Parlor

Fender '69 Deluxe Reverb / Peavey NV400 + Peavey TubeFex + Goodrich 7A MatchBox & Pedal
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Alan Brookes


From:
Brummy living in Southern California
Post  Posted 28 Jun 2011 10:44 am     Re: Electric servo-stepping motor controlled PSG in the futu
Reply with quote

William Johnson wrote:
Someone will come up with a servo-stepping motor control for pedal steels...

This suggestion was discussed in detail on the Forum about two years ago. I searched for the thread so that we could ressurect it, but I couldn't find it. It was about the time Gibson came out with their automatic-tuning acoustic guitar. One of the problems I can see straight away is the speed of the change. For instance, there are some numbers where I depress the pedals very slowly, while others where I press them very quickly. You would need something like the zoom control on a camera.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Danny James

 

From:
Summerfield Florida USA
Post  Posted 29 Jun 2011 5:17 am    
Reply with quote

It might be possible to add feel and variations of how fast one depresses a pedal, using servos.

Example my son and I used to fly radio controlled model airplanes. Some as big as 1/3 scale powered by weed eater engines. The throttle, elevator, rudder, ailerons, & retractable landing gear, were all controlled by servos, which were radio controlled by a hand held unit with joy sticks. How far and fast you moved the joy sticks created an instant and equal response at the aircraft.
With powerful enough servos I think this principal could be applied to a steel guitar. The Military obviously is using them in their radio controlled drones these days. So powerful servos should be available.

Back to your Multi-Kord projects, Best of luck. Cool
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

William Johnson


From:
Statesboro, Georgia, USA
Post  Posted 29 Jun 2011 10:31 am    
Reply with quote

Yea, there would be a way to monitor your foot/knee speed and force, etc. and simulate a desired PSG pedal 'feel'.via closed feedback loop.

billy
_________________
William Johnson (Billy)
Statesboro, GA

Sho Bud Student / Emmons DB E9
Sierra DB E9 / ZUM DB E9 / Derby DB E9 Marlen E9 / BMI E9

Mosrite Ventures '69 / Gibson Cherry ES345 / Custom 'Billie-Tele' Telecaster / Gibson '78 J45 / Custom 'P-Strat' Squire Stratocaster / Epi Parlor

Fender '69 Deluxe Reverb / Peavey NV400 + Peavey TubeFex + Goodrich 7A MatchBox & Pedal
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Alan Brookes


From:
Brummy living in Southern California
Post  Posted 10 Jul 2014 3:25 pm    
Reply with quote

Has anyone progressed with this concept since the last posting?
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Ian Worley


From:
Sacramento, CA
Post  Posted 10 Jul 2014 10:32 pm     Re: Electric servo-stepping motor controlled PSG in the futu
Reply with quote

William Johnson wrote:
Someone will come up with a servo-stepping motor control for pedal steels

I just read about someone who had done this on a tele, sort of a remote controlled futurama Parsons-White contraption. There's a description and video here:
http://www.gizmag.com/tele-servo-bender/32915/

He's even posted the code for the control software in case someone is looking for a new psg project...
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Les Cargill

 

From:
Oklahoma City, Ok, USA
Post  Posted 11 Jul 2014 5:00 am    
Reply with quote

There's a forum thread about the servo bender tele:
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=268331

For a 10 or 12 string guitar, that's a lot of servos. Many guitars have 30 or more pulls.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail


All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Jump to:  

Our Online Catalog
Strings, CDs, instruction,
steel guitars & accessories

www.SteelGuitarShopper.com

Please review our Forum Rules and Policies

Steel Guitar Forum LLC
PO Box 237
Mount Horeb, WI 53572 USA


Click Here to Send a Donation

Email admin@steelguitarforum.com for technical support.


BIAB Styles
Ray Price Shuffles for
Band-in-a-Box

by Jim Baron
HTTP