4th String Zing

Andy Schick · From: Kingston, Ontario, Canada

I can't stand the zing any longer.
I have tried everything that has been suggested on previous posts. I thinks the only left is to swap the finger.
Should this be my next step?

My guitar is an 1978 D10 Franklin.

Thanks in advance.
Andy

James Morehead · From: Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.

Whats Paul Franklin Sr. think the cause is? What I mean, is I have heard this in some guitars, too. I'm curious to what the manufactuer would say, in your case, Mr. Franklin.

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

When I asked Paul Sr recently for some new fingers, he was emphatic in his refusal. He told me to just keep sanding away on what I have. In fact, he told me to use ever coarser sandpaper than what I use, which I'm reluctant to do. He said "That's what we do for Paul Jr."

richard burton · From: Britain

Have you tried my method?
A small strip of 'softish' plastic.
I've used this method for years, it works for me Very Happy

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

I would never use something under the string such as the suggested plastic!

It may be a flat spot on a nut roller. I had some problems with my 3rd string, including some "zing" last year and after some investigation it turned out there was a small "flat" spot on the nut roller. My Franklin is an 81 model and I got a new set of nut rollers and no more problems. After 25 years (at the time) I thought it was probably time for some maintenance.

If you want to "dress" the changer fingers, I use 600 grit wet emory paper and lightly sand the finger then finish it with either Simichrome or MAAS polish (they are both identical). I've had very little trouble with the fingers, but I did have a problem with the 5th string breaking at the finger and it turned out to be (apparently) a burr that I couldn't feel, but after going over it with the emory paper and polish I haven't had any more string breakage.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

I have three progressive solutions

1. Simichrome

2. A pencil eraser -- perhaps a typewriter style eraser -- works well if the groove hasn't really established itself. Then polish with Simichrome.

3. A Dremel with the buffing wheel attachment and a little buffing compound -- then polish with Simichrome.

It's worked for me on all the guitars I've owned through the years. The most important thing is to LOOK CAREFULLY WHENEVER YOU CHANGE A STRING. If a groove has started you need to polish it out. The longer you wait the deeper it will become and more difficult it will be to remove it. I've never had to resort to any sort of sandpaper or Emory cloth, but if I did, I think I'd start with crocus cloth or wet/dry with a couple of drops of water. Avoid sanding to the point of flat spots -- maintain the radius and curvature as much as possible.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12

Franklin · Posted 8 Oct 2007 6:07 am

Andy,

My father and I completely understand your frustration. Zingy strings are problematic and is something every steel player has to deal with from time to time.

Contact my father. (615-865-4754) The finger can not be the problem if correct sanding and buffing doesn't solve your zing problem. Unless someone has sanded a flat spot on it by sanding it incorrectly, sanding and buffing the finger like we suggest restores it to a brand new performance level. A brand new finger has burrs and imperfections until it is sanded and buffed by Dad exactly the same as he asks his players to maintain their older ones, Which is why he told Ernest there is no reason for changing his finger concerning a zingy string problem.

You should sand the finger the same way the toe of the shoe is buffed to prevent sanding a flat spot which could be problematic. I've dealt with zingy strings on every brand of guitar I've ever owned.

Most likely its the string itself. I purposely buy individual spare strings from different brands from different music stores, all over town, when sanding doesn't work.

Strings are imperfect at best and are packaged in runs of thousands. If one is zingy, the rest will also be zingy if the music store you purchased them from, ordered their supply around the same time period. By searching all over town, I always find a batch that sounds great (without zing) from one of the local stores.

Jack is right to suggest, in rare instances, it could be the roller nut. This is an easy fix.

The fingers are made from the same alloy density as the push pull Emmons guitar. Strings pulled over that alloy will wear a groove after alot of play which is why we suggest a little sanding and buffing the fingers at every other string change.

Plastic over the finger kills the sustain and changes the tone of the instrument.

Call Paul Sr. He is always there and is always glad to help.

Paul

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

I was all set to use my old architectural electric eraser on my 4th string zinger, but all I could find was the erasers. An extremely hard ink eraser took only a few passes by hand to erase the zinger, which couldn't be seen.

This, after once using a Diamond Deb nail file to dress the heads. Less is more.

Thanks to Larry for the old tip.
_________________
Those that say don't know; those that know don't say.--Buddy Emmons

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

I don't know if this is the same "zing" you are talking about or not. I played an Emmons push/pull guitar for about 15 years and the 4th string had "issues" from the day I got it. Starting at about the 8th fret and going up to about the 14th fret I would get a very annoying ringing harmonic note that was very difficult to work around. If there was anything wrong with the changer finger, it would have been something done at Emmons, because it had that problem when I got it. I would usually have to change that string several times until I found one that caused the least amount of ring to it. Later, when I bought my current guitar (Mullen) I noticed it had the same "issue". This is a guitar with perfectly smooth, anodized fingers. That ringing stopped when I changed to Jagwire strings.
_________________
Lee, from South Texas - Down On The Rio Grande

There are only two options as I see it.
Either I'm right, or there is a sinister conspiracy to conceal the fact that I'm right.

Williams Keyless S-10, BMI S-10, Evans FET-500LV, Fender Steel King, 2 Roland Cube 80XL's,
Sarno FreeLoader, Goodrich Passive Volume Pedals, Vintage ACE Pack-A-Seat

Dick Wood · From: Springtown Texas, USA

Andy,here's something I recently experienced on my 1.5 year old Williams and it's one more thing to consider.

I started getting a zing so I checked out the finger and noticed it had a small groove and I polished out and the problem seemed to go away.

It came back when I changed strings but the groove had not come back.

Bill Rudolph told me to check and see if the wrap on the ball end was up or down facing the finger. I turned the wrap to where it faced upwards and haven't had another problem since.

Some strings tend to have a pronounced lump near the ball where the string wraps back over inself which causes the string to not lay flat on the finger but ride just far enough to vibrate against the top of the finger.

That's my $1.75 which has been adjusted up from .02 becuase of inflation.

Good Luck

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

To be more specific about coarse vs fine sand paper:
I have been using 600 grit as coarse, 1500 grit as medium, and Nevr-Dull cotton wadding polish as fine.
Usually the 1500 is coarse enough.
Paul Franklin Sr suggested 600 (or 400, I forget), and I was reluctant to use just that. It seems to me that eventually, I will sand away the whole thing! That's why I wanted to get new fingers.
Meanwhile, it does work. The zing does away when I do it carefully.
Obviously you have to sand around the curve, to avoid a flat spot (more buzz).
And be very careful to keep the filings out of the changer. Nowadays I turn the guitar over, and use wet sandpaper.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Before I did anything to the guitar, I'd try at least 3 strings on there, and I'd try a different amp, too. Sometimes, it's awful hard to tell exactly what's causing the zinging/buzzing sounds, but you sure don't want to start working on the guitar until you've eliminated the possibility that the strings or the amp may be the problem! Wink

Been there, done that. Rolling Eyes

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

I have NEVER herad that zing transmitted though the pickups to the amp. You can hear it dry on many guitars. I just never heard it transmitted by the pickup.

Henry Nagle · From: Santa Rosa, California

I've heard it coming through an amp. I had the problem one night in a recording studio with my Williams (brand new). This guy had me overdubbing all these single string runs... Octaves, harmonies, noisy sound effects. Fun stuff. It was like a steel guitar orchestra on a pop song!

But that zing was driving me nuts! When you're under a microscope, it can really be a problem. I had my Sho-Bud with me too. I finally pulled out that guitar and thankfully, it wasn't feeling "zingy" that night.

I've only noticed it a couple other times and it's never been such an issue as it was that night. It does vary from one string to another. Most of the time I don't hear it at all.

What Dick Wood said about the string wraps makes a ton of sense. I'll experiment with that.

By the way, I'm very happy with my Williams. Great guitar.

Andy Sandoval · From: Bakersfield, California, USA

I found some emery finger nail boards that come with a fine side and really fine on the other side. Then I cut off a narrow strip so it's wide enough to fit over one finger at a time if I'm changing just one string. they're flexible enough so you can bend them slightly around the radius of the finger. Just keep them moving around the radius so you don't sand a flat spot. So far they work pretty good.

Nigel Mullen · From: Cassilis, New Brunswick, Canada

The forth string zing is a real common problem which is not easily fixed. I suggest that it's a design problem with pedal steel guitars. A friend of mine purchased a brand new pedal steel and the forth string zing came with it (at no extra cost of course). I think steel guitar manufactures have to take another look at this and re-design the top of the fingers. Maybe they require a grove who knows but its a serious problem. Just my 2 cents.

Don Sulesky · From: Citrus County, FL, Orig. from MA & NH

I think in many cases it could be the string windings of some brands.
Be sure to have the end wind facing away from the changer and that may in most cases eliminate the buzzing.
Also as Jack suggests it could be the roller nut. A small drop of oil on the nut may solve your problem.
Don

Fred Nolen · From: Mohawk, Tennessee, USA

The "zinger" is almost always the 4th string. I think that pretty much rules out the problem being a finger. Every guitar I have owned does that to some extent. In some instances, I have found that using a lighter attack and more volume tends to lessen the effect. Also, I think it comes and goes at will. (I have no idea what that means). Shoot, just pick the dang thang and enjoy it.

Ol' Fred

Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

When I got my first steel I thought it needed a different pick-up from the E-66 Playing through a trashed Super Twin... Then my friend let me play through a Nashville 400... BAM pick-ups fine except I hated peavey amps.. As far as the Zing goes I have tried 12s 11s and 10 gage strings. Noticed that amps play a big part and it seems to me when I use two amps they tend to cancel out most annoying tones.
I am now playing through a Vibrosonic My Fav...
with a Session 400.and they sound much better together than separate... or maybe I can't hear the zing because my back hurts so bad. Any way I have had to over come and adapt to some of my long held ideas on tone and sound with the Steel Guitar Discombooberation syndrome.
Lets just be glad we haven't lost our minds ...and kept compulsively buying more stuff expecting different results. Rolling Eyes

_________________
MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes

Larry R · From: Navasota, Tx.

Are you oiling the string where it rolls over the finger? I apply a minute amount of oil with new strings and also at about every 8 to 12 hrs of playing to reduce friction. (Notice I said a minute amount, not a quart). I also oil the nut rollers at the axle and at the saddle where the string rests. I also try to space my strings at different areas on the finger to avoid the groove syndrome.
Only had 2 instances in 10 yrs with zingers and it turned out to be the string itself. Place the string on the roller (like mentioned in the above post) with the end of the wrap facing upward. You don't want it gouging into the finger.

Bent Romnes · From: London,Ontario, Canada

Andy, I have some intermittent zing on the 4th and 8th strings on my homebuilt. Kind of puzzling that it comes and goes. So far, the only other odd thing about it is that sometimes I can feel a vibration in the roller nut.

As the changer fingers are brand new, I doubt if the problem lies there. Hopefully it lies in the strings like Paul said? I have Jagwires on there.

I'll keep trying to get rid of it, of course. If I learn something I will let you know.
Bent

Dickie Whitley · Posted 10 Feb 2013 10:15 am

Deleted

Larry Bressington · From: Nebraska

No sanding is what i was told. I just polish out with Simichrome every string set change, sanding will wear a shape in the finger. Are you changing strings regularly, i change mine before they zing out if possible. Don't get any oil on finger string contact point when lubing. Also Simichrome the back of the finger if possible.
_________________
A.K.A Chappy.

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Loosen the string. Pull it off the center of the finger, and retune. String spacing will be messed up, but this is just a test. With the string off center, does it still "zing?"

For groove or flat spots, I cut a strip of fine emory cloth, slightly narrower than the finger. Remove adjacent strings so you have room to work. Grab the cloth by it's ends, and pull it back and forth over the finger. This will retain/correct the radius. Then polish with crocus cloth and Simi. Lay the guitar on it's side. Use shop vac hose on top, and spray from the bottom with a compressed air can. You don't want abrasive debris to get in your changer. Next time I have to do it, I think I'll do the whole deal with it on it's side, and with the vac running the whole time.

When I got my first new Bud, in '72, I had a problem with the 3rd string. Tried everything! Finally cut a very thin piece of leather, and put it behind the ball-end windings. It did not go over the top of the finger, just the length of the windings. Cured the "zing" and premature breaking problems. Back then, all I could get were Earnie Ball singles, and they weren't made with steel in mind. The ball-end windings could be quite long.

Forum Index > Pedal Steel	Goto page 1, 2, 3 Next	Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic