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Author Topic:  RKL Split Tuning Question...
John Peay


From:
Cumming, Georgia USA
Post  Posted 2 Dec 2010 12:45 pm    
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Well, it didn't take me long to start asking questions about my new Derby!

Can you folks tell me if it's possible to tune the "G" on my 1st string? My RKL is as follows:

1- F#->G/G#
2- D#->E
6- G#->G/F#

Ok, so my guitar has split tuning screws, and I've got the 6th string tuned with the tuning screw on the full lower F# and I tuned the G (RKL with the B pedal) with the nylon tuning nut.

The 1st string raise is tuned to the G# using the tuning nut; the 2nd string raise is tuned to the E using the tuning nut.

As I engage the RKL, the first string raises to "very close to G" at a feel stop, then everything else goes from there.

I don't see any way to tune that G at the feel stop, since I have 5 changes and only 4 "tuning devices" (3 nylon nuts and 1 tuning screw).

Am I missing something here, or do I just not have that G on 1 ? I suppose I could add a rod and get it?
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Richard Sinkler


From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
Post  Posted 2 Dec 2010 3:32 pm    
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To use a split tuner on string 1, you also need a pedal or lever that lowers that string a half step so you can actually "split" the notes to get an accurate G. You mentioned a "feel stop". I think you are just feeling the other rods kicking in and not a deliberate feel stop. Otherwise, you would be able to tune the G note with the rod that is making the feel stop. You could probably figure out which rod is making the resistance increase, and try tuning that change to give the G. It might make the note change on that rod out of tune though. Maybe playing with the locations of the pull rod in the changer and/or bell crank would make this possible.

That G on string 1 is better on a lever by itself (or raising string 7 to G also). There are licks that I use that change for that would be a pain to get if I had to very quickly hit 2 levers, or a lever and pedal, at the same time.
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John Peay


From:
Cumming, Georgia USA
Post  Posted 2 Dec 2010 3:55 pm     Thanks Richard
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Thanks, Richard, that totally explains it. Just as I suspected. I know I'm just feeling the other rods "kicking in", but that point is darn near right on the "G" (coincidentally) so it made me wonder.

And yes, I could tune a "feel stop" at the G by using the 2nd string nut starting its raise to "E", but then the end point of the "E" would likely be off, as you say.

Somehow, it's worked out that that 1st string "G" is nearly right on, so I'm not touching it any more!

So we have a new term here for psg..."Coincidental Tuning" (as if we don't have enough!)

Thanks again.....
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Richard Sinkler


From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
Post  Posted 2 Dec 2010 4:23 pm    
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I would say go ahead and try tuning the half stop (feel stop) with the 2nd string raise and see how far out of tune the E note is, assuming this is the second string to make contact with a changer finger and string 1 is the first. It may be a close compromise, but you really want the E on 2 to be in tune with the G# on 1. Possibly slant the bar a little to flatten or raise the note on string 1 to get them in tune.

Another trick... If you want the G on string one, you can use the middle finger on your left hand to hook onto the first string behind the bar and pull towards you to get the change. It sounds harder than it is. I have a lever that raises both F#'s to G and I probably use this trick to get that G 50% of the time. It looks cool too Very Happy .
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richard burton


From:
Britain
Post  Posted 3 Dec 2010 12:22 am    
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I can think of one (very convoluted) way to have an accurate G, as long as you don't have a lower on the first string already.

The theory is that the changer finger would be held in the lowered position by a spring-loaded knee lever.

There would be 2 opposing bellcranks on the knee lever cross-shaft (or something rigged up to have the same effect as opposing bellcranks), with one rod connected to the lower, and the other rod connected to the raise.

When the knee lever is activated, the lower is released first, until it reaches its normal neutral position, and the string is tuned to G (at the keyhead)

The knee lever carries on its movement, and now the raise is activated, and the string is tuned to G# with the nylon tuner on the raise rod.
The lowering rod now does nothing, it just carries on moving through its hole in the lowering finger.

Now release the knee lever, and its spring will bring it back to its open position, at the same time as activating the lower.
Tune the string to F# using either the nylon tuner on the lowering rod, or the setscrew in the changer.

The knee lever spring needs to be just powerful enough to over-ride the lower return spring.

Of course, this is just a theory running through my head at the moment, but I think it would work.
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richard burton


From:
Britain
Post  Posted 3 Dec 2010 12:45 am    
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Wait a minute, we have a problem Very Happy

The bellcranks need to be timed so that, when the 1st finger is in its neutral position, that is the point at which the 6th string has lowered to G, and the 2nd string should just be starting to move (I think...... I'm starting to get confused now Very Happy )

Now, if the 2nd string requires more movement than the first to raise a semitone, there is no problem, as it can be accommodated for by the 1st string nylon raise tuner.

However, if the 1st string requires more movement than the 2nd string, then that is a different ball game, and an additional lowering rod would be needed on the 2nd string, from a bellcrank on RKL, to nudge it back to E (as the note would be sharp of E without the additional lowering rod)

Phew Shocked my head's hurting Very Happy
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Bill Howard

 

From:
Indiana, USA
Post  Posted 3 Dec 2010 9:01 am     Don't get it
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Am I wrong or isn't doing the 1st and sec string not a good idea?,I leave second lowered since it is played lowered most of the time,but I use first and second together... if your doing something with both I would think this could be a problem??
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Jerry Overstreet


From:
Louisville Ky
Post  Posted 3 Dec 2010 12:29 pm    
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Hi John. If your Derby does not have a half tone tuning mechansism for the 1st string underneath the guitar, then you can't accurately tune that 1st string G half tone position.

Factory set-ups generally time the rod locations for the best combination of changes. FI, the 1st string half tone G note will normally be set with either the resistance felt from picking up the G#-F# lower, or the D#-E raise on strings 6 or 2 respectively....[sometimes a change that connects the same lever on the C neck if you have a D10]....as suggested by Richard.

Keep in mind that changing string gauges affect this note as well.

It sounds to me as though your middle note is about as close as you can expect without the benefit of a dedicated 1st string half-tone feel stop device.

You can experiment with different rod locations in the bell crank, but be careful to remember where you start in case you need to revert to square one.

In this case, your split tuners don't come into play except for the 6th string lower/raise split combo.

I'm still looking for some printed material that I mentioned to you earlier. Will send it along if and when I locate it.

On most of my guitars that I have owned with the changes you cite, that G note is right on or pretty darned close...including the Derby.
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Richard Sinkler


From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
Post  Posted 3 Dec 2010 2:05 pm    
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If you are using the G on 1 for licks, close to in tune might be good enough. You can always slant the bar slightly sharp or flat if you want to use the G to get a dom7th chord with the A & B pedals engaged. As you progress, you will learn how to make adjustments by slightly slanting the bar to make things sound right. It pretty much comes natural.
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Bo Borland


From:
South Jersey -
Post  Posted 3 Dec 2010 5:49 pm    
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My Derby has a similar change on my LKL .
It raises #1 F# to G#
#2 Eb to E
and#7 F# to G#

With no additional 1/2 tone mechanism, I get a perfect G on a feel stop.

The only split change I cannot get to tune is the split to C on pedal 1 & my LKV B to Bb lower.

Charlie told me that as long as my final lower on the B strings was an A I could only get one or the other...but not both.

Has anyone figured this out?
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richard burton


From:
Britain
Post  Posted 3 Dec 2010 10:01 pm    
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Bo,
I take it that you lower string 5 to Bb with LKV, and lower it to A with another pedal/lever ?

The A note is set with the screw in the changer ?

If you have a spare raise hole in the 5th finger, you can add another bellcrank to the LKV cross-shaft, and run a rod from that to the raise hole in the 5th finger.

You can now tune the split note C in the normal fashion, by activating the A pedal and the LKV at the same time, and tuning it using the nylon tuner on the LKV lowering rod.

Release all pedals and levers, then activate the LKV.
The note will probably be flat of Bb.
Bring it back up to Bb by using the nylon tuner on the raise rod that you have added Very Happy
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Bo Borland


From:
South Jersey -
Post  Posted 4 Dec 2010 4:37 pm    
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Thanks Richard , I will give that a try and let you know.
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