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Topic: Help with tempered tuning? |
Andy DePaule
From:
Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon
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Posted 24 Jan 2007 11:29 pm |
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Just got a new Korg tuner.
Hope someone out there with a better ear than I have can give the right + or - cents for tuning the E9th with standard pedals & knees?
I think I have got it close, but don't trust my ears.
Thought I'd seen somnething in the forum already, but a search failed to help me find this. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 25 Jan 2007 3:42 am
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Try searching the old forum for "tuning chart" or some such search key. You'll find plenty of discussion of this. It appears that the new forum search function doesn't search through old forum posts that were merged in.
I think a good place to start on this is Jeff Newman's tuning charts: http://jeffran.com/tuning.php But there are lots of people with different ideas about what is "good", to say the least.  |
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Andy DePaule
From:
Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon
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Posted 25 Jan 2007 5:19 am Thanks Dave
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Thanks Dave,
That was exactly the kind of chart I was looking for.
Will try it later today to see how it sounds.
Andy |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 25 Jan 2007 11:26 am
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Time to go......
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 26 Jan 2007 12:23 am
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Andy, be careful of your terminology. If you tune everything straight up 440 with a meter, that is a tempered tuning called Equal Temper (ET). If you adjust that by ear to tune the beats out, you are untempering to the untempered tuning called Just Intonation (JI). In the guitar world, many people have the terminology exactly backwards, and consider the straight up meter untempered, and anything else tempered.
Here is a typical E9 copedent tuned JI. I have given it in Hz, each Hz deviation from 440 is 4 cents. This copedent tuning assumes the guitar has no cabinet drop (flattening of the pitch of unpedaled strings when some strings are pedaled).
| Tab: |
F G Bb A B C Eb D
1 F# 440 G 444
2 D# 437 D 444
3 G# 437 A 440
4 E 440 F 434 F# 436 Eb 436
5 B 440 Bb 444 C# 437 C# 436
6 G# 437 A 440
7 F# 440 G 444
8 E 440 F 434 F# 436 Eb 436
9 D 444 C# 436
10 B 440 C# 437
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Here is a JI E9 copedent assuming 2 Hz (8 cents) cabinet drop, which is typical of many pedal steels. If your cabinet drop is less than this, then ignore it and use the tuning above. To measure your cabinet drop, press the A and B pedals down and watch a meter to see how much your E strings drop in pitch.
| Tab: |
F G Bb A B C Eb D
1 F# 441 G 443
2 D# 438 D 445
3 G# 438 A 439
4 E 441 F 433 F# 435 Eb 437
5 B 441 Bb 443 C# 436 C# 435
6 G# 438 A 439
7 F# 441 G 443
8 E 441 F 433 F# 435 Eb 437
9 D 445 C# 437
10 B 441 C# 436
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A problem arises with the F# on string 7. It cannot be in tune as the 2nd note of the E scale (where it also acts as the 5th of the B chord with strings 5 and 10 as roots) and as the root of the F#m chord with the B and C pedals. I solve that by adding a change on my C pedal to raise the E on string 8 to F#, and I use that as the root of the F#m chord. The 7th string is tuned for the E scale.
If anyone trys either of these tunings, I would be interested to hear how they like the way they sound. These are based on theory, but the one assuming cabinet drop is pretty much what I get if I tune my Es to 441 and tune everything else by ear to JI.
Last edited by David Doggett on 26 Jan 2007 1:38 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 26 Jan 2007 12:29 pm
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Here are the above charts in cents.
| Tab: |
E9, No cabinet drop
F G Bb A B C Eb D
1 F# 0 G +16
2 D# -12 D +16
3 G# -12 A 0
4 E 0 F -24 F# -16 Eb -16
5 B 0 Bb +16 C# -12 C# -16
6 G# -12 A 0
7 F# 0 G +16
8 E 0 F -24 F# -16 Eb -16
9 D +16 C# -16
10 B 0 C# -12
E9, 8 cents cabinet drop
F G Bb A B C Eb D
1 F# +4 G +12
2 D# -8 D +20
3 G# -8 A -4
4 E +4 F -28 F# -20 Eb -12
5 B +4 Bb +12 C# -16 C# -20
6 G# -8 A -4
7 F# +4 G +12
8 E +4 F -28 F# -20 Eb -12
9 D +20 C# -12
10 B +4 C# -16
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There should be no big mystery in calculating charts like this. Some rules of thumb are that major 3rds and major 7ths are 12 cents (3 Hz) flat of straight up ET. Perfect JI has them 14 cents flat (3.5 Hz), but 2 cents or 0.5 Hz are not worth quibbling about. Mechanical limitations of tuning keys make it hard to get that close, and a rule of thumb is that any difference less than 5 cents (1.25 Hz) is not noticeable in playing. And it is better to err on the side closer to ET. The 6th of the scale, and minor 3rds and minor 7ths are 16 cents (4 Hz) sharp of ET. Perfect JI has the 5ths 2 cents (0.5 Hz) sharp of ET; but again, that is such a small difference it is not worth sweating over.
These type of charts and explanations may seem complicated. But all they do is give you the equivalent of the traditional method steelers used before hand-held electronic chromatic tuners became available. That is, to take your Es from some reference, and tune the rest of the strings and stops by ear so all the most common chords sound good. That is still the best way to tune. But a chart is useful if you are in a situation where you cannot hear, or if you are a beginner and don't trust your ears yet.
As for cabinet drop, some people tune their Es with no pedals to straight up 440 ET, and let their whole A chord go flat when they use the pedals. Others tune their As with the pedals down to straight up 440, and let their whole E chord go sharp when they release the pedals. I prefer to split the difference. I measure the cabinet drop by watching how much the Es drop when the A and B pedals are pressed. I take half of the drop and tune the open pedal Es that much sharp of 440. Then the pedaled A chord will be that same amount flat of 440. But neither chord will be noticeably off (less than 5 cents) when playing open strings at the nut. There is also the phenomenon of cabinet rise, for example when you use the E lower lever. I have taken that into account in the above charts. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 27 Jan 2007 9:58 am
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| Someone who tunes completely straight up ET once complained that JI has one playing the C# chord with the F lever almost a third of a fret above the fret. Wrong. They were looking at the F lever stop being tuned 28 cents below ET. But that is the 3rd of the chord, which is supposed to be 14 cents below ET. If you look at the root of that chord, the C# on the A pedal, it is only 12 cents flat of ET (16 cents with cabinet drop), and so the bar needs to be only 12-16 cents above the fret to play that chord in tune. An experienced players ears will automatically guide the bar to the right spot. |
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Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 27 Jan 2007 10:48 am
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Andy.
Put the needle right on the zero with everything, just like you do on the other instruments on the wall in your Avatar.
Just like about half of the less verbose of us including THE Top Guy do.
Reading?
Here's about all a guy'd ever want to know, and a little bit more.. Or Here too.. including what Buddy Emmons had to say.
You want to read more than that?
Well, I reckon you'll have more coming up Directly. Huh Mr Doggett.
BTW, I see you're in Eugene, not all that far away. Give me a buzz at 503-209-9012 if you want and stop by a gig or two if you're up here in the next month. We've got a Jam/ Mem.Service for an old Fiddler tomorrow, but I don't know how many steel players will come.
EJL[/url] |
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Brad Issendorf
From:
Lake City, Minnesota
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Posted 27 Jan 2007 11:24 am
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| Personally, I think that all pedal steels have a different "chart". I don't actually believe that anyone can tune all strings to 440 because all pedal steels have some cabinet drop. Some have very little and others have more, but all have some. If you tune all strings to 440, apply combinations of pedals, and then check the tuning of "unchanged" strings, they will have changed to some extent. The Newman charts are right, but I think that it needs to be tweeked as all steels drop different amounts, and what works for brand x may not be what works for brand y. I guess finding a happy medium for all changes is what I am trying to say, but I could be wrong. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 27 Jan 2007 11:56 am
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Well, I was only trying to answer Andy's honest question. Unlike Eric, I don't have an agenda on this issue, and do not try to talk anyone into tuning either JI or ET. I only seek to learn about the issues, and discuss them with those who are interested. But since Eric has hijacked this thread for his ET agenda, he deserves to be answered. It is true that a few top pros tune more or less straight up ET. However, they are in the minority. Buddy Emmons has said he sometimes tunes his 3rds a couple of Hz flat of ET, which is 8 cents, and is close to the 12 cents shown in Jeff Newman's charts and mine. Paul Franklin, Bruce Bouton, Lloyd Green and many other top pros take a single reference pitch and tune the rest by ear, which comes out close or identical to JI. Lloyd's tuning by ear was the basis for Jeff's chart.
The bottom line is: the only way to decide whether to tune by ear or a chart to JI, or straight up ET by a meter, is to take the time to try both ways; and try them when playing alone, and when playing with a group (or with ET tracks like Band in a Box). That is my only agenda. Most people agree JI sounds better when playing alone. Some people tune ET or somewhere in between for playing with keyboards and other instruments that tune ET. However, many top pros tune JI when playing with other instruments. Their ears and hands work out a compromise that works. We've all heard thousands of recordings done that way.
Sorry if I get "wordy." Serious discussion takes more words than sarcasm and sound bites.
And by the way, by all means go meet Eric and play with him. He seems like a great guy, and I doubt you will hear anything wrong with his tuning and playing. You could learn tons. But in the end, you'll have to decide for yourself how to tune. And by the way, as you are probably well aware, the other instruments hanging on your wall don't have these tuning issues, because they have no tuned 3rds, 6ths and 7ths.
Last edited by David Doggett on 27 Jan 2007 12:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 27 Jan 2007 12:16 pm
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I agree with Brad. Every guitar is different. The principle I use is to measure the cabinet drop and split the difference between the pedals up and pedals down chords - that is, I add half the cabinet drop to unpedalled chords, and subtract half the cabinet drop from pedalled chords. That works for both JI and ET. If half your cabinet drop is 2 cents (about 0.5 Hz) or less, then you might as well forget it - it's not worth the effort.
There are other issues too. Adequate bar pressure to keep strings from rattling can make the lower strings go sharp when playing with the bar, especially on C6, extended E9 or Uni. Therefore, after I have roughly tuned the open strings, I put the bar at the C fret (8th fret) and do some fine tuning, usually loosening the lower strings slightly so they sound right. Now if I go back and check those low strings open, they are slightly flat. If I were writing out a chart for tuning the open strings, I would keep that flatness in the chart, so those strings will sound right when barred.
Last edited by David Doggett on 27 Jan 2007 1:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 27 Jan 2007 12:58 pm
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Wel Mr Doggett, my esteemed Colleauge, Here is the original Post:
| Quote: |
Just got a new Korg tuner.
Hope someone out there with a better ear than I have can give the right + or - cents for tuning the E9th with standard pedals & knees?
I think I have got it close, but don't trust my ears.
Thought I'd seen somnething in the forum already, but a search failed to help me find this. -Andy- |
My simple answer:
| Quote: |
Andy.
Put the needle right on the zero with everything, just like you do on the other instruments on the wall in your Avatar.
Just like about half of the less verbose of us including THE Top Guy do.
Reading?
Here's about all a guy'd ever want to know, and a little bit more.. Or Here too.. including what Buddy Emmons had to say. -Eric West-
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Likely though, your posts on his thread will keep him reading for days..
If you are trying to turn the thread into another bandwidth black hole, and tortuous "Eric's Simple Tuning System Expose™"..
Go right ahead.
I could use the publicity.
Maybe it'll bring some more players out to Pappy Spain's Memorial Jam at the Gresham Eagles on Roberts Ave after 3 PM on Sunday 28Jan07. Craig Hutchins and probably other people might come out from Nashville with him for it. Pappy fiddled for a lot of people in his 80 some years. I'm just gonna bring my Tele and go catch up with friends.
My Agenda :
Now, probably Mr. Franklin even knows about it.
There's always the Red Eye Flight Paul..
EJL |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Cliff Kane
From:
the late great golden state
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Posted 5 Apr 2009 10:16 am
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Dang comfuser. That's funny, Alan. |
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Gary Preston
From:
Columbus, Ohio, USA
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Posted 5 Apr 2009 1:12 pm
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Guys i'm not taking sides or don't even try to say that i hear everything perfect . But hear is what i will say . I have tried tuning just about every way you have talked about and came to this conclusion ! I tune my steel guitars to where they sound sweet to my ears and it sounds in tune with our group ! When i tuned up straight ''440'' our guitar player said you aren't in tune with me and you need to ''re-tune'' your steel . I can't stand to hear a guitar that has all the ''beats '' going on , it isn't something that i can listen to very long . Tune your guitar to where it makes you happy and maybe the rest of the band also . That's all i got !!! Flame on !  |
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Bo Legg
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Posted 8 Apr 2009 1:18 am
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Andy De Paule
| Quote: |
Just got a new Korg tuner.
Hope someone out there with a better ear than I have can give the right + or - cents for tuning the E9th with standard pedals & knees? |
Andy, that is one of the questions here on the SGF that can’t be answered.
The only thing regarding tuning that PSG players agree on is that we all disagree.
Here is my solution. Keep it simple. You don’t want to spend hrs tuning.
5 min. tune up for E9 with 3+4
1. Tune the 10 string E9 straight across... 441Hz or + 4 cents above 440Hz
2. Tune anything that lowers strings... 441Hz or + 4 cents above 440Hz
3. Tune anything that raises strings except the C pedal (raises 4th & 5th strings a whole step)... 440Hz.
4. Tune the C pedal(raises 4th & 5th strings a whole step) to 439 or -4 cents below 440Hz.
5. Check your straight across prior to each pedal or knee tuning. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 8 Apr 2009 11:30 am
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Bo's instructions provide Equal Temper (ET, everything straight up) with some compensation for cabinet drop.
This is a resurrected old thread, so the below is not directed at anyone in particular. But in case someone turns this up in some future search, if you want to try a "sweetened" tuning instead of ET, search out Jeff Newman's tuning charts at the Jeffran web site, or keep reading for my suggestions.
| Tab: |
E9, w/ typical cabinet drop (2 Hz)
F G Bb A B C Eb D
1 F# 441 G 443
2 D# 438 D 445
3 G# 438 A 439
4 E 441 F 433 F# 435 Eb 437
5 B 441 Bb 443 C# 436 C# 435
6 G# 438 A 439
7 F# 441 G 443
8 E 441 F 433 F# 435 Eb 437
9 D 445 C# 437
10 B 441 C# 436
E9, w/ typical cabinet drop (8 cents)
F G Bb A B C Eb D
1 F# +4 G +12
2 D# -8 D +20
3 G# -8 A -4
4 E +4 F -28 F# -20 Eb -12
5 B +4 Bb +12 C# -16 C# -20
6 G# -8 A -4
7 F# +4 G +12
8 E +4 F -28 F# -20 Eb -12
9 D +20 C# -12
10 B +4 C# -16
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Tuning E9 by ear:
1. Take the root note of the tuning, E (strings 4 and 8 on E9), and tune that note alone to a tuning reference (tuning fork, electronic tuner, keyboard).
2. Now play an E chord on strings 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, and tune all the strings so that chord sounds nice to your ears, without changing the Es on strings 4 and 8.
3. Play a B chord on strings 1, 2, 5, 7. String 5 is the reference. You have already tuned it in the previous step, so do not change it. Tune the other strings so they make a nice chord with string 5.
4. There are multiple ways to tune string 9, but the simplest is to play an E chord on strings 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, and tune string 9 so it sounds nice as the 7th of the E7 chord. Or, make a Bm chord with strings 7, 9, and 10. Tune string 9 so it sounds good as the minor 3rd of that chord.
5. Press the A and B pedals to make an A chord on strings 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10. Strings 4 and 8 are unaffected by those pedals, and have already been established as your reference strings, so do not change them. Tune the pedal stops on the other strings to make a nice sounding A chord with the unchanged strings 4 and 8.
6. Press pedals B and C to make an F#m chord on strings 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. Tune the C pedal stops on strings 4 and 5 to sound nice with that chord, and do not change strings 3, 6, 7.
7. If you have an F lever (raises the Es ½ step), activate it with the A pedal to make a C# chord on strings 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10. Tune the F lever stops on strings 4 and 8 to sound nice with that chord without changing any other strings or stops.
8. If you have an E lower lever (lowers the Es ½ step), activate it to make a G#m chord on strings 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10. Tune the stops on strings 4 and 8 so that chord sounds nice, without changing any other strings or stops.
9. Any other pedal or lever stops are tuned by the above principles. Find the most common chord the change is part of, and tune the stops to that chord without changing any other strings or stops.
Normally, you will only have to go through the first 4 steps to tune your open strings. The pedal and lever stops on most modern steels are very stable and only have to be tuned occasionally to adjust for minor slippage or string aging.
If you tune to chords by ear as above, and then check with a chromatic tuning meter, you will see many variances from the straight up meter tuning. Mostly that is due to the fact that you have tuned the instrument to itself by the age old natural harmonic tuning system called Just Intonation (JI), which is used by the “whole world” of musicians who set their note-to-note intonation by ear – orchestral strings, horns, vocalists. The meter is giving you a more dissonant tuning system called Equal Temper (ET), which is a compromise required with the minority of instruments with fixed pitch – keyboards, fretted strings, harps.
A small part of the variance from ET may be because of a pedal steel mechanical problem called cabinet drop. When you activate raise pedals or levers, the extra tension takes up some mechanical slack in the guitar, and that causes unraised strings to go slightly flat. While picking the E on string 4 or 8, watch a meter while you press the A and B pedals. The amount of cabinet drop is different on each guitar. The Newman tuning chart, and the pedal steel presets in the Peterson tuner, adjust for this assuming a sort of average cabinet drop. If you follow the directions above, and write down what a meter says after the fact, you can have your own chart adapted to your own guitar.
Cabinet drop mostly affects only the strings when played open at the nut. Your ear and bar will automatically adjust when playing with the bar. You can minimize the cabinet drop problem on the open strings by splitting the difference of the cabinet drop between the open E chord, and the pedaled A chord. Measure the amount of drop by seeing how much the E on string 8 drops when you press the A and B pedals. Add half of the drop to the E strings when first tuning them to the reference in step 1. If you then proceed with the rest of the steps, it will automatically subtract half of the drop from the A chord with the A and B pedals. Thus, each open chord at the nut will be only half off, and both will sound as near as they can to the correct open pitch.
As for playing with fixed pitch fretted guitars and keyboards, many steelers tune JI by ear as above and manage just fine. Their ears learn to adjust the bar to fit with the other instruments. But there can be conflicts when playing open strings at the nut. Some steelers fine tune somewhere between what their ears tell them is JI and what the meter would have them tune to. This mostly affects the 3rds of chords.
Okay, here’s the idiot’s guide I use for tuning the E9 open strings passably for most guitars in situations where I can’t hear and have to tune by sight to a meter:
1 F# 441 (+4 cents)
2 D# 438 (-8 cents)
3 G# 438 (-8 cents)
4 E 441 (+4 cents)
5 B 441 (+4 cents)
6 G# 438 (-8 cents)
7 F# 441 (+4 cents)
8 E 441 (+4 cents)
9 D 444 (+16 cents)
10 B 441 (+4 cents)
So for the open strings, you really only have to memorize 3 numbers: tonics and 5ths are 441, 3rds are 438, and the 7th is 444.
A pedal stops: C# 436 (-16 cents)
B pedal stops: A 439 (-4 cents)
C pedal: F# 437 (-12 cents), C# 437 (-12 cents)
F lever: F 433 (-24 cents)
E lower: D# 438 (-8 cents)
The F#s can’t be right with both the open string B chord, and the BC pedal F#m chord. 439 (-4 cents) is a good compromise.
This kind of simplified chart really is good enough for most purposes. You don’t really need those 0.1 Hz (0.4 cents) adjustments in the Newman chart. A rule of thumb is that anything within 5 cents (1.25 Hz) of the correct pitch is not noticeable while playing. |
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Bo Legg
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Posted 8 Apr 2009 3:30 pm
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David, you've done a lot of work and study on this tuning thing and there is a lot of good stuff in there.
I think the real secret to sounding in tune is to never play more than 2 notes together above the 12th fret regardless of how or who's way you tune.
In fact this is not a bad rule for all over the neck.
You can make a lot of good 2 note chords and endless good harmony in any mode.
Anyway that's what the E9 is all about. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 8 Apr 2009 5:11 pm
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| Bo Legg wrote: |
I think the real secret to sounding in tune is to never play more than 2 notes together above the 12th fret regardless of how or who's way you tune.
In fact this is not a bad rule for all over the neck.
You can make a lot of good 2 note chords and endless good harmony in any mode.
Anyway that's what the E9 is all about. |
Even two notes at once is too many for many of the intervals in a Just Intonation temperament such as the one that David D. detailed above. I'm not saying that you shouldn't tune this way; but if you do you have to be very selective about what you can and can't play. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 8 Apr 2009 6:09 pm
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Well, two note harmonies are simpler, and often sound cleaner regardless of intonation problems. Also, you can slant them.
And Earnest is right that it's a straight ahead tuning for straight ahead playing. But I have not found that one needs to be "very" selective. In fact, even when playing complicated four-string jazz chords, I don't notice unacceptable dissonance. The dissonance tends to be in uncommon chords that are dissonant anyway. I find that easier to live with that the dissonance other tunings give to the common simple chords. But I wouldn't say "everyone" should use the above tuning. The original poster asked for information on sweetened tunings, had here is some. |
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Roger Crawford
From:
Griffin, GA USA
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Posted 8 Apr 2009 6:41 pm
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| Did Buddy tune straight up before or after he put out his harmonic tune-up instruction tape? |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 8 Apr 2009 6:45 pm
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| David Doggett wrote: |
| But I have not found that one needs to be "very" selective. |
I'm sure you don't, or else you wouldn't play this this tuning (temperament). Another player would be accustomed to something else, and would have to avoid intervals such as D-A, F#-C#, F#-A# . |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 8 Apr 2009 7:24 pm
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I agree with Earnest. The D major position (strings 9, 7, 6 with "B" pedal down) is way out of tune on David Doggett's charts. I use that position a lot.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Bo Legg
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Posted 8 Apr 2009 11:16 pm
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Earnest Bovine
| Quote: |
| Even two notes at once is too many for many of the intervals in a Just Intonation temperament such as the one that David D. detailed above. I'm not saying that you shouldn't tune this way; but if you do you have to be very selective about what you can and can't play. |
Ernest, this is the same point I was trying to make in referring to my "don't play more than 2 notes at a time regardless of how you tune". It was assuming of course that the person playing would have a good enough ear to place the bar at the correct place and slant the bar to make the 2 notes sound in tune including intervals you mention such as D-A, F#-C#, F#-A#
PSG axiom: No PSG tuning can be all things to all people. I think the word we're looking for here is not temperament it's compromise |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 8 Apr 2009 11:51 pm
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Right, b0b, I’ve tried the 9, 7, 6B position for a bVII and concluded it was of little use for me. I would get that by dropping back two frets on 10, 8, 6, 5, 4, 3, or go up a fret and use the A pedal/F lever combination, or go to the IV fret and use the AB pedals, etc. With the pedals down, I would get the IV chord in a number of other places. I just don’t need to use 9 as the root, and so see no need to compromise my whole tuning for that.
In fact, I mostly play a uni and get that D on a lever. I just checked and I tune it straight up, which for me would be 441 or +4 cents, which sounds fine as the 7th for E7, E9, etc. I’m not sure where I got that +20 cents. There seem to be differences of opinion of how to tune the 7th for JI. However, tuning the D straight up still has problems for using it as the root.
Likewise, the intervals Earnest mentions are available to me with good intonation in the places I would use them. I don’t avoid the places where they don’t work because of intonation problems. Just the opposite - I don’t worry about the places where there are intonation problems with those intervals because they are places I would never go for those intervals even if the intonation was good. There are an almost infinite number of places to get any interval on a pedal steel. The vast majority of them are places one would never want to use them, even if the intonation was fine. For me there seem to always be multiple places more useful for those same intervals, and where the intonation is fine. And I don’t play only simple tunes and harmonies. I play some fairly complex classical and jazz stuff (home alone). And for that, the beautiful movable JI chords of pedal steel are wonderful, and the dissonance in more complicated chords is more acceptable to me than the dissonance ET would give me on the commonly used simple chords. To flip BE’s quote, if ET can be off by 14 to16 cents in the main simple chords, then I’m home free if my more complex and naturally dissonant chords have the same or less dissonance by tuning JI. Likewise I’ve looked at mean tone, and don’t care for the 5ths, and don’t find that it helps me in any way I need.
But that’s all just me (although I have lots of company with Lloyd Green, Paul Franklin, and tons of others). Everyone has to find the tuning system that works best with their own style. The original poster asked for sweetened tuning info, and I provided it here. |
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