Relevance of Instructional Materials

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 8 Nov 2005 12:52 pm

Wouldn't this be a good time for a nice, cold beer?

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 8 Nov 2005 12:54 pm

Man, guess I can't win.

I don't drink either.

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 8 Nov 2005 12:58 pm

I'm going to try jumping in between two of the camps here to point out the bridge we're overlooking when it gets personal...

Imagine a guy who loves and wants to play "classic" country steel styles, and he's working on a song that moves from G to C.

Across town there's another fellow who loathes country, working up some licks to play over the G7 to C7 in "Stormy Monday" for his weekend jam band.

A gal in the next town has just inherited an old Fender 1000 and is trying to figure out how to get from G to C, using her old flute music from high school band...

As begineers, each of them looked at the open E9 tuning and figured out they could slide the bar from fret 3 up to fret 8... but where to go from there?

Well, the old moldy tunes in Winnie and Scotty's books illustrate numerous ways to go from "a I to a IV chord" using various pedal and knee combinations, 7th, augmented, and dimished chords, different string groups and melodies... any and all of which would be suitable and usable for any of the three player's stylistic ambitions.

Regardless of the "song", any decent instructional material offers many roadmaps for negotiating musical territory, and except in rare instances, it all applies to any genre.

Like many, I used those (often cheesy) old "songs" to learn various ways to negotiate the musical changes common to most genres. Today I play with rock, reggae, blues, and even metal and hip-hop bands, as well as country, and I use the material I gleaned from existing material to build from. I see no difference in the "raw material" I start with for any of those genres- I didn't need a "Rolling Stones" course to get a handle on rock. (Although it would have been nice to have one- a course that had tabbed out actual steel parts from any Stones records would have been pretty rudimentary!)

No, you don't go "directly" from "Wreck of the Old '97" to "West Side Story", but neither would you go "directly" from "Brown Sugar" to "Stairway to Heaven". Any book using any song faces the same problems- relevance to the larger mass of prospective students. It takes having the vision to see that music is a mostly universal language and that one can learn much from any good material that applies to one's preffered genres.

A book of Robert Randolph tunes would attract a lot of younger newbies for sure. Unfortunately to be accurate they'd be learning in his somewhat obscure tuning (leaving songs like "Teach Your Children" difficult or impossible to play), and frankly, the difficulty of Robert's style would probably scare off as many as if he were playing "How Great Tho Art". Which, come to think of it he does play...

I listen closely to my younger students and would love to be able to write a book that illustrated theory and technique using their preferred "songs"... Most of them like different stuff- I see no real commonality in song choices and tastes. A few years ago tab of Guns 'N Roses' "Sweet Child Of Mine" would have sold a bunch of steel books- but not today.

The cost of mechanical licensing for the few books sold makes it a no starter.

Looking at most of the Steel styles outside the "country mainstream", I hear very little in technique and approach (RR and the Sacred steelers being an exception), that isn't derived from, or totally consistent with, the old dried up instructional materials we've been talking about. The songs may not be relevant, but the material certainly is.

If you can imagine that any semi- or professional steeler will play many thousands of songs throughout their career, many of which she/he might not particularly "like", and moving on to drop those songs as new setlists/bands come into play, perhaps you can see the point that every piece of music provides instruction, growth and development, and sometimes we have to dig a little bit.

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 8 Nov 2005 1:05 pm

And BTW, if Jim is getting emails from people suggesting "we don't want rock players here"... well shame on you.

Aside from comments that get personal on either side, this issue is very germaine to the health of Steel in the future. After all the endless comments about fears of "steel dying out", lack of interest in younger players, decline in gig availability, I think there'd be a lot of interest when people speak up about just what alienates them. It would be nice if love of slidy things was what bound us together, and not dedication to some narrow musical genre or style.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 8 Nov 2005 1:48 pm

That was well said, Mark. I don't agree with all of it, though.

One thing I want to point out again is that I have been specifically referring to a couple of books that are commercially available. They, in my opinion, are very "long in the tooth". Everything from the songs, to the photos (the guy in the tie on Winston's book to the cowboy hat and whatever that tie is on Scott's) to the recording quality.

For the beginning student, that's ALL that's available, at least in this neck of the woods. I've been in 20 music stores looking for steel books, and found those two and the Mel Bay Chord Chart, plus Bruce Bouton's video...which is also obviously country-oriented, and has a photo on the cover of a mullet-haircut (I assume it's Bruce wearing it) that went out of style 15 years ago (sidebar - great T-shirts at NAMM in the Ernie Ball booth - "Beware the Mullett").

Are these same things going to be all that's available in 10 years? 20?

Look, my kids really haven't heard the songs I mentioned. They are NOT "familiar tunes". Athe risk of alienating somebody again - maybe they are in Iowa or Nashville, but not here.

In counterpoint, more than one person has said specifically to stay completely away from E9 tuning for blues and rock. that while it *can* be done, it's the hard way and always sounds wrong. C6 is better (or my B6), but not E9. Others have agreed that E9 will work, but "you can't get there from here"...meaning the instructional materials point you in the wrong direction except for basic "how the instrument works" knowledge. If you don't play a country style, in other words - you're on your own.

That's what I feel. When I was teaching guitar, I asked students what they wanted to learn. Invariably, it was something by System of a Down or somebody popular at the time. And the songs always had a "hook". So I would teach them the hook...but sneak in some foundational stuff in the way of finger excercises and chords as well. If I told them "sorry, I won't teach that - but "Grandfather's Clock" has a lot of the same notes in it" I would have had no students.

Think about that last sentence long and hard.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 8 Nov 2005 1:55 pm

I have expressed a desire to see updated, modern materials that cover a variety of styles available COMMERCIALLY. A potential player in a music store will never see a Joe Wright course, a Newman course, or any of that stuff. The stores don't carry them. I'm talking specirfically about shelf-stock items, not small-distribution mail order stuff.

There really isn't much steel guitar music of any style available commercially. I don't think that the P.D. song selection is what keeps Scotty's Mel Bay courses from selling in music stores - I think it's the fact there are only 2 or 3 steel players in your average suburban town. It's just not a real viable commercial market, especially when compared to 6-string guitar.

------------------
<img align=left src="http://b0b.com/b0bxicon.gif" border="0"> Bobby Lee
-b0b- quasar@b0b.com 
System Administrator 
My Blog

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 8 Nov 2005 2:01 pm

Then b0b, why doesn't someone with experience try to expand the market to other genres...increasing instrument and related item sales...by developing more "universal" learning tools?

The very materials mentioned are part of the REASON there are only 2 or 3 steel players in a given town. There's no interest being built.

BTW, in your first post there was a quote:
"the secrets locked in a couple of Buddy's Ray Price rides."

"rides"? Must be a steel-specific term. I assume that means "solos", or am I wrong? Never seen the word used in that context before. Just wanted to make sure I had the right understanding.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 8 Nov 2005 2:19 pm

Rides is a very common term for solos.

Duane Reese · Post by **Duane Reese** » 8 Nov 2005 2:49 pm

I'd like to play steel and work it into rock and blues music. It HAS been done, but there's not much in the way of instruction for a new player to go on. Does that not make sense to you?

Yes Jim, it makes sense to me. I thought I made that clear by pointing out the fact that there is just not much to instruct a person on in the way of rock because there's not much steel in other types of music.

What doesn't make sense to me is why you seem to think that steel instructors are responsible for providing a product that there is little or no demand for. Yes of course there could be steel in pretty much anything, but there just hasn't been because it's not popular enough. Would you go on a tirade against bassoon instruction providers for not having a full catalog of rock, pop and blues lessons?

When you were teaching guitar, and you had kids asking you to teach them alternative rock songs, my guess is that the percentage of students wanting to learn that style is a little bit higher than the percentage of people who are asking steel instructors to provide what you are. What if a kid came to you and wanted guitar instruction for say, the accordian parts in polka... What would you tell him? Think about that long and hard...

I am sorry that you are having problems with your hand and can't currently play hand-held guitar, and I'm not saying that what you are trying to do on steel can't ever be done, but since no one else really is trying to do it, it's not going to be easy. The steel guitar is not set up to do exactly what a conventional guitar does - if it were, what would be the point? Most people have probably assumed that if you want to play what a guitar plays you'll just play the guitar, and if yo want to play what a steel plays you'll just play the steel; but you have a different situation on you hands. Unless you want to try to invent your own way and style of making it happen, they about the only thing you can probably do is contract someone to give you specialized instruction for what you are trying to do. I'm sure you can find a way to get what you are looking for - if there's a will there's a way.

All I'm saying is that you shouldn't get mad at everyone for not having something that is obscure and needs to be taylored for you if you really want it. I don't want to see you ran out of town, and I think it's bad for people to write you e-mails telling you to buzz off, but you just can't go lashing out at everybody for something that is not their fault. There just aren't enough people who want what you want to make provisions readily avalible - it's called supply and demand.

So look, you can go on about this until the cows come home, but the fact is this: you know what you want, you know how easy it isn't going to be to get, and you know what to do about. I don't know what more anybody can say here to make you happy. Just cowboy-up and do what you've got to do...

Just quit unjustly criticising what others are doing - if you don't like their products, then don't buy them.

Duane Reese · Post by **Duane Reese** » 8 Nov 2005 3:02 pm

Additional: there are more reasons for why there are only 2 or 3 steel players in any town than just the fact that there aren't instructions for more popular forms of music... Not only is it more expensive and less applicable for other genres, but from the perspective of a rock 'n roll kid (yes I was one back in the day) it's less glamorous than dancing around like a maniac with an electric guitar. A lot of that stuff is about image. Maybe it would me more popular for that kind of music, and more wide-spread and articulated around other styles if it weren't for just good ole pop culture. Maybe, Jim, you yourself might wind up having an impact on that situation if you apply yourself...

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 8 Nov 2005 3:22 pm

Duane - I'm not "unjustly criticizing". the only "criticisms" have been of close-minded folks and dusty materials that haven't been updated in 20 years but are still on the shelves.

And the Pedal Steel happens to be a "guitar" not a "bassoon". It's a slide guitar with added gadgetry. But it's still a guitar, and I'd wager more pedal steel players also play guitar than bassoon. In fact, I'll bet most *started* on conventional guitar.

"What if a kid came to you and wanted guitar instruction for say, the accordian parts in polka"

Did several things very similar. Horn parts, as a matter of fact.

Duane, YOU seem to think I'm mad, which I'm not. just frustrated at what I see as a reluctance on the part of the "old guard" to recognize that there is an untapped market, and probably a new market out there. nobody is willing to make the plunge - OK, I don't blame them for not producing fully rock or blues oriented instruction materials - that wouldn't make financial sense.

But it DOES make sense to update the old stuff to include newer materials and other styles. I don't know how one could argue against that unless one feels the steel is strictly a country instrument, the old tunes are well known by those who have learned in the past, so it's all still valid and current.

Yikes. That's a scary thought.

You also keep assuming I want stuff tailor-made for me. I don't know where you get that either. Again - let's look towards updating things and widening the horizons a bit.

Again, unless those who feel things are just fine don't want "outsiders" - something made perfectly clear to me several times - and are therefore unwilling to change a thing lest they sully their world with undesireables.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 8 Nov 2005 3:27 pm

"Rides is a very common term for solos."

Thanks Charlie - it was unfamiliar to me, even around the studios on the west coast. Like I said, might be steel-specific; or perhaps regional in nature and then spread to steel. Wasn't a big thing, just wanted to make sure I had the term right.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 8 Nov 2005 4:17 pm

Jim, your arguments make no sense to me. Instead of learning what you can from existing materials, you want us to tailor lessons to the music that you want to play. There's very little pedal steel in rock music, yet you're convinced that there's a market for instruction in it. And you want someone to lose money for a decade or two building that market to prove your point.

Man, it just ain't gonna happen. Get over it! Your time is better spent practicing steel than tilting at these windmills.

I think that Joe Wright he can supply you with exactly what you need, btw. Have you tried his stuff yet? He's one of the best rock steel players in the world. He really is! And he's the only rock player in that league who has taken the time to document how it's done.
My Approach (I've been studying from this book for years)
HOTRS
DVDs

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

Mark Fasbender · Post by **Mark Fasbender** » 8 Nov 2005 6:09 pm

Jim.......... Thats too bad youre getting emails telling you to go away, Please dont. Frank Zappa once said about styles of music, and this is just an aproximation.
"If you play a piece with a string quartet you have classical music, If you play the same thing on guitar,bass and drums,you have rock n roll". Different styles also use different concepts of harmony , For example 2-5-1 in jazz as opposed to a 1-4-5 in the blues. Rock and pop tunes can be fairly specific as I'm sure you know, but they still use the same chords and melody as other types of music. Maybe the joe wright course would help with some of those things. I duobt anyone will ever TAB a system of a down tune, youll have to figure that out on your own just like you did for your students.You didnt need tab for that and you know why. Because you had alot of experience on guitar and good ears and a firm knowledge of basics. The same will come over time on any instrument. So good luck with this. It's something you will likely have to figure out largely by yourself and get the satisfaction that comes with that kind of learning. Get a Rat pedal or something. The different tone might make some of the things a pedal steel does sound less country and a little more modern or rockin. Different sounds can be inspiring to style specific endeavors.
Some times that is almost all that really seperates different styles in todays melting pot of music. You're still going to need to know where the chord or voicing you're looking for resides on the instrument. Good luck and I hope you can find some material that can help you get where you want to be.

------------------
Got Twang ?

Mark

[This message was edited by Mark Fasbender on 08 November 2005 at 06:13 PM.]

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 8 Nov 2005 6:46 pm

When I (and a great many others) learned to play , there were no courses for pedal steel, none at all! That didn't stop me from learning. If you really want to learn to play this thing, in any style, you'll learn! If courses aren't available, you learn by watching, by listening, and by stealing whatever knowledge you can from where ever you can get it, and then applying whatever part of that that is germane to your particular area of interest.

IMHO, playing pedal steel is just like playing baseball. You learn by doing it, not by reading a book about it.

[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 08 November 2005 at 06:48 PM.]

Jeremy Moyers · Post by **Jeremy Moyers** » 8 Nov 2005 7:32 pm

Wow this has gotten long!

One more thing since I have not posted on this topic in a few days. In my original posts I was discussing more my approach as a teacher when giving private lessons. I try to get into my students heads and teach them what I think they want to learn. I have found this keeps their interest longer than "The Camp Town Lady" may. I was wondering out loud why instructional materials can not do the same thing. This being the case, I do understand the argument as to why there are not many instructional videos or books catering to rock or "modern" top 40 players. (licensing, etc.) I also understand that it is impossible to make instructional videos that cater to you like private lessons do. But something could be done. My dad, Wally Moyers, has several instructional videos out with Mel Bay and Texas Music Video, so I have seen this business from the inside out. It is entirely possible to do an instructional video teaching "modern" playing without having to use any copywritten material. Make your own rhythm tracks and title one "licks in the style of ____?"
you could even do a video showing how to apply "traditional" pockets on the steel to rock and roll. Yes it is easy for some players to make that jump on there own, but some could use a little guidance on exactly how this "country" phrase could to be adapted to a rock tune. (And I am not talking about throwing distortion on a country lick)

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 8 Nov 2005 8:24 pm

"Instead of learning what you can from existing materials, you want us to tailor lessons to the music that you want to play."

Bobby, that is NOT what I said!!!!

Please re-read the posts - I don't want to write it all out again. You're not even close.

"And you want someone to lose money for a decade or two building that market to prove your point."

No, ADD to the existing materials - and update the ancient ones. I really think you skimmed the replies rather than my posts, Bobby.

Try reading this from my last one:

"Duane, YOU seem to think I'm mad, which I'm not. just frustrated at what I see as a reluctance on the part of the "old guard" to recognize that there is an untapped market, and probably a new market out there. nobody is willing to make the plunge - OK, I don't blame them for not producing fully rock or blues oriented instruction materials - that wouldn't make financial sense.

But it DOES make sense to update the old stuff to include newer materials and other styles. I don't know how one could argue against that unless one feels the steel is strictly a country instrument, the old tunes are well known by those who have learned in the past, so it's all still valid and current."

Is that clear?[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 08 November 2005 at 08:36 PM.]

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 8 Nov 2005 8:50 pm

Jeremy's post made a ton of sense. That would be one approach.

And again (for Bobby, who still thinks I want everyone to lose money producing stuff only I would buy) merely adding newer styles to old methods would be an improvement. The 20-year old books need some updating. Well, in my opinion, anyway.

And sorry, but adding a pedal doesn't make it rock, or blues (and II have enough of that stuff to fill a garage).

The Joe Wright material has been recommended - great, thanks. That's a place to start. I do have to admit to never having heard of Joe Wright before joining this forum, and I still have never heard him. (Sigh - the Paypal issue raises it's head again.)

But again, Joe's material is not available to the kid in the music store who sees the new Carter sitting there (they seem to be spreading, even in L.A. where I never saw steels in stores for years) and thinks it's cool, different..and wants a book. He's stuck with a guy in cowboy hat playing Goodnight Ladies....

Some of you have been thoughtful enough to notice that my points aren't about me..to some degree yes, but more about what I've noticed and the lack of materials for anyone outside the "country core". I thank those who have taken time to read and consider those thoughts.

I would hope the people who missed that simply didn't have time to read a lengthy thread and skimmed through, unfortunately misinterpreting the vital core of the whole thing.

I have tremendous respect for everyone here, as this is an instrument that takes an unusual amount of dedication to learn. It's wrestling a 16-legged greased octopus that's a Mensa member. I even respect those who told me to leave, cussed me out, called me a hippie (I thought that was hilarious considering...never mind, I don't discuss politics ever) and made several references to the marital status of my parents. They all love the steel. That deserves some respect.

I would think my opinions and ideas do as well. Even if you don't agree.[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 08 November 2005 at 08:53 PM.]

Mark Fasbender · Post by **Mark Fasbender** » 8 Nov 2005 9:28 pm

jim.............. yes in fact it does. I guess you know more about how I see music than I do. Many people here have tried to assist you and you dismiss their help by telling them they are wrong. That is the nature of opinions,everyones are different. Your posts lead me to believe that you see music in a profoundly different way than anyone I've ever encountered. I believe you must enjoy this thread in all its contentious glory to continue to slap the many hands that have been extended and to dismiss everyones advice in such an offhand fashion. If you already know the answers , why dont you post a reply that actually states a position on the many issues raised here. I just dont know where you are coming from. Perhaps you just like to argue on forums. Perhaps you could tell me WHY a distortion pedal doesnt make something rock. In my opinion there is lots of material that could be applied to someones music of choice. Tell me WHY this is not so. Enlighten me.

------------------
Got Twang ?

Mark

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 8 Nov 2005 10:26 pm

"I believe you must enjoy this thread in all its contentious glory to continue to slap the many hands that have been extended and to dismiss everyones advice in such an offhand fashion. "

Excuse me?

I haven't dismissed any suggestions or slapped anyone...well, I may have slapped one person, but I was personally attacked, and that's different.

Bobby made some good suggestions with the Joe Wright Material I wasn't familiar with...but also apparently didn't read what I actually posted and assumed I wanted to be spoon-fed my own personal materials, which I never implied. Pointing out that error isn't insulting anyone - it's just fact, and I tempered it by noting he may not have had time to read the entire thread.

I don't know how many times this has to be repeated, but I'll cut-and paste part of it again:

"1. I didn't say country music was outdated. I said the old tunes used in the two instructional manuals are. and those tunes aren't all country. Please get that fact straight.

2. I never said country was s*&^. I said I don't prefer playing and/or listening to it. Merely a personal preference. That leads to

3. I have expressed a desire to see updated, modern materials that cover a variety of styles available COMMERCIALLY. A potential player in a music store will never see a Joe Wright course, a Newman course, or any of that stuff. The stores don't carry them. I'm talking specifically about shelf-stock items, not small-distribution mail order stuff.

4. Mike, I specifically said you didn't go from "Good Night Ladies" or "Grandfather's Clock"(as you inferred at one point) to "West Side Story" - NOT that years of playing country couldn't get you there if you want to take that route and have that kind of time on your hands. I really don't feel you are reading what I'm saying...or reading what *you're* saying. I'm sorry you feel I'm not worthy to attend "your" jam, but I think your feelings are based on reacting to things I'm NOT saying. Please take the time to reconsider your reactions.

I'm not trying to change the world, just find some appropriate teaching materials. It's very hard to spend hundreds of dollars on things far outside your style to "experiment" with. I've been finally given some viable suggestions - great, I thank Bill Moore for his help."

Summary - In my opinion the COMMERCIAL books are outdated. It would be a great idea if they were updated to include new material and other styles of music. The steel world could possibly be expanded that way, which is a good thing.

Yes, I am looking for guidance on materials to approach the instrument from OUTSIDE the country vein. The has been two sets of replies - one that I'm nuts, and the country stuff is just as good as anything I could ever find, even if I don't want to play it. The second group, half of which came by email to avoid the writers' being flamed as I have, suggested I was right and that there just isn't much available, which is a shame. And one directly helpful suggestion came from Bobby, who in the same breath accused me of attacking windmills as he pointed me to rock instruction materials. huh?

Mark, I do appreciate your suggestion as to tone - but adding a fuzz to Grandfather's Clock doesn't make it rock. It simply adds a distorted sound to an old song. I hope you know what I mean, and see a bit of humor in that statement - but you DID ask.

I'm not trying to bee argumentative either. But It's amazing how many people have responded not to me, but other people's posts about me that include misinterpretations and assumptions. If they read what I wrote myself, it's a different picture.

The only "argument" I have is with people who insist that country is essential to the learning process on steel, because that's what the instrument is meant for. Sorry, but I don't accept that.

Please let me know where I "dismissed" people by telling them there advice was wrong, other than the discussion with Mike Perlowin where he refused to reply directly to anything I said, got angry, and decided I wasn't to be invited to his party.

That's the only one I can think of, and I just re-read the thread.

Back to the summary:

1. Updated commercial materials would be a great thing for the instrument.

2. Realizing that pedal steel doesn't have to be just a country instrument would be a revelation for a lot of people.

3. Personally, I'd like to find some materials more appropriate to the styles I'm interested in. Bobby and Bill Moore pointed me in that direction, for which I'm grateful.

So what is this "profoundly different way" that I see music as compared to anyone else? Or is it just profoundly different than anyone else you've encountered here? What tickles me in a way is that most of what I've suggested is pretty conventional and non-controversial stuff on guitar forums. We talk about books and videos all the time, and I've never seen the type of stubborn support of outdated materials I've encountered here.

And yes, I *was* warned in advance of coming here by a couple friends that there was a small group of core members who were opinionated and would not like ideas about new or updated materials. I was told to never mention Jerry Garcia or Robert Randolph. I was told if I crossed these folks they'd try to make my life difficult here and through email would tell me I'm not wanted, because I'm not "country" or "conventional" and have somewhat eclectic musical tastes.

They were right.[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 08 November 2005 at 10:32 PM.]

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 8 Nov 2005 11:20 pm

JIm,
There are plenty of players on the forum that are not traditional country players. Check out my CD. Its about as out there as it could get. I make a living playing steel and the bulk of my work is not country. I teach pedal steel and about half of my students have no interest in country. I feel accepted and respected around here with no problem.
Check out Chas Smiths work. He is revered on the forum and his music can border on being even thought of as music.(I love it) The people that really can play the pedal steel tend to help each other out. If you are interested in actually playing there is a wealth of resourses here for you.

Maybe you shouldn't get so worked up about what the rest of the world should do to help those multitudes of poor souls that want to learn the pedal steel and find Scotty's book offensive. Most any kid that can figure out how to buy a Carter Starter knows about this forum and can find learning material to suit his or her needs.

You are welcome here with whatever sort of music you are into. If you look at the Garcia/Randolph threads you will find the number of people that support him far out number the guys that don't.

------------------
Bob
My Website

Duane Reese · Post by **Duane Reese** » 9 Nov 2005 1:36 am

Okay, so Jim, if it is true what you wrote about just wanting instruction, then here's what you do: go get Joe Wright's lessons, go through them, and then write us back and tell how it worked out for you - problem solved.

Oh and tell those couple of friends of yours that we all said 'hi'.

Mark Fasbender · Post by **Mark Fasbender** » 9 Nov 2005 3:35 am

Jim.......... I like Robert Randolph, But not as much as Gentle Giant or Mahavishnu Orchestra (Birdsof Fire esp.) What tunes would you like to see included in some courses? Perhaps someone of a like mind will eventually tab some out. At least youve gotten the word out. It wouldnt suprise me in the future to see all kinds of stuff available for steel. I still think a determined sort could extrapolate most any style from what is available. By profoundly different I mean that to you ,musical styles dont seem to be related. Rock is rock and blues is blues and country is country. Not so in my experience. Blues and rock have a strong conection as do country and blues.Lots of good info in all of them. So connected in fact that on certain levels I can see little difference at all. I wasnt putting you down,I was just saying that I didnt know where you were coming from. It would be great if there were more explanation of things Not Country , but I guess there isnt. So learn some A_B pedal licks and mess with them like this. For a major sound play them in the normal position(country) for a minor sound move them up 3frets(rock and blues) For a bluesy 7th sound lower your Es and move down 2 frets.Nothing hard and fast there but alot of great sounds to use that arent as country and happy. (If I got that wrong,somebody correct me please, after all its 5 am) Mess around with it and see what you think. I bet joe wright's material has lots of secrets in it.Good luck with all that and catch you on another thread sometime.

------------------
Got Twang ?

Mark

[This message was edited by Mark Fasbender on 09 November 2005 at 04:14 AM.]

Mark Fasbender · Post by **Mark Fasbender** » 9 Nov 2005 4:15 am

Double Post .............. oops

[This message was edited by Mark Fasbender on 09 November 2005 at 01:54 PM.]

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 9 Nov 2005 4:26 am

A: Please don't, anybody, tab out "Stairway to Heaving." Please.

B: If anybody does tab out "Birds of Fire" by the Mahavishnu Orchestra, I will buy a copy. I promise.