Why Americans Don't Like Jazz

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 6 Apr 2010 7:18 am

Why is this even an issue?

This writer has no business pawning off his ideas of why others SHOULD like ANY kind of music. What is wrong with people not liking jazz...or rap...or metal...or anything. People choose what they like..they chose NOT to like jazz.

His reasoning is shallow....they don't play instruments so therefore they can't hope to even understand it. Well they can read, but that does not mean they can understand the laws of physics either. Or even have any interest.

If you are playing music solely for yourself and your own creativity, then you should always be ready to accept the reality that no one might care what you are doing...except you.

Mitch Drumm · Post by **Mitch Drumm** » 6 Apr 2010 7:35 am

I generally agree with Bill Hatcher in his post immediately above.

However, note that the article is supposedly about why Americans don't like jazz, not why people don't like jazz.

He never explores why or whether non-Americans like jazz. It's left unsaid, with the implication being that there is some deficiency in Americans that is not present in Norwegians or Malaysians that prevents them from "liking jazz". Sorry, I'm already painfully aware of American deficiencies in all things social and cultural by virtue of reading the general press on general topics. This guy is just getting on the bandwagon and adding nothing of substance.

It's just another weak and poorly thought out article that had been better left unwritten. He's entitled to his opinion, but he needs to go back to his drawing board if he expects anyone to take him seriously. I don't.

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 6 Apr 2010 7:58 am

Zut allures ! wee french arrrre very lucky beecoze we h'ad Le Jazz Hot Club de France et Josephine Baker, Sidney Bechet & bookoo encore ?
wee love Le Jazz, wee put it in so many of our moovies
are not, ze greatest Jazz festivals in Europa ?

God bless Europa for giving Jazz a home so long ago

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 6 Apr 2010 9:44 am

Why is this an issue? Well, if you're interested in promoting jazz, or any other style of music for that matter - which IMHO can sometimes be a worthwhile enterprise - it's a damned good idea to know the nature of the impediments to that goal.

I think it's pretty clear you can't force anybody to do - or especially like - anything. But maybe discussion - even purely armchair philosophizing like this - can be useful. I realize that sometimes the discussion can veer in the direction of, "So and so is just too stupid to understand this great blah blah whatever.". But I think if we just don't start arguing, "Hey, that lousy blah blah whatever is just a bunch of useless, elitist crap.", this can be kept under control.

As far as this specific article is concerned - I don't think the ideas expressed are new, nor do I think the author has a grip on cause and effect. Then again - I don't know anybody else who has a grip on causality about this kind of thing either.

It's just a white paper on a blog - an op-ed piece written 7 years ago. He states his rationale as follows:

As far back as I can remember, I’ve always been obsessed with logically understanding the world around me. Until I find a satisfactory explanation for why something is the way it is, I can’t sleep well at night. Ultimately this is all driven by fear. Whatever explanation I come up with is a temporary measure to calm myself down, that is, it’s a fictional tale. In my view, one can appreciate the true value of theory only if one realizes its fundamentally fictional nature. As with anything fictional, there is art to telling a theory. That is what I strive to do on this website.

This does not mean that everything presented on this website is completely made up. They are based on what we all perceive as “facts” and “truths”. The only difference is that I accept these “facts” and “truths” to be fundamentally indeterminate, which allows me to enjoy theories as a form of art or even entertainment.

Why not? This is America, where everyone has the right to stand up on their own soap box and say what they please, regardless of perceived merit.

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 6 Apr 2010 12:08 pm

I think the pervasive nature of North American pop culture has alot to do with it.
Last night I drove the one mile drive into the province of Quebec, where people are encouraged to embrace their own culture, think for themselves and ignore pop culture madness.
The bar was full of 20-something kids listening to a jazz quintet. That just doesn't happen most places. These people don't turn on TMZ every night to get instructions on what to listen to, eat, wear, etc., as the majority of North American youth do.
It was very refreshing. Interestingly, you also couldn't find one backwards baseball cap, hanging wallet chain, or pants slung down around their knees either.
If left to think for themselves, people would choose quality over crap... but they're not.
The stranglehold of pop culture is not a good thing, imho.
- John

Jack Francis · Post by **Jack Francis** » 6 Apr 2010 12:11 pm

Methinks wethinks too much!! $:\$

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 6 Apr 2010 12:27 pm

Yes, were "dancing about architecture" again....

Mitch Drumm · Post by **Mitch Drumm** » 6 Apr 2010 5:22 pm

John Steele wrote:It was very refreshing. Interestingly, you also couldn't find one backwards baseball cap

Yeah, my studies show that the median age of backward baseball cap wearers has tripled from 8 to 24 in the last 30 years.

It's part and parcel of adolescence now extending from puberty into the mid-40s.

When this civilization (?) is unearthed thousands of years from now, I reckon the reversed baseball cap thing will be seen as highly correlated with the decline and fall. I keep telling myself it's only a coincidence and not a cause, but I'm not having much success.

My other working hypothesis concerns neck tatooes, but I digress.

Charles Davidson · Post by **Charles Davidson** » 6 Apr 2010 7:28 pm

Maybe the backward cap wearers perfer cataracts in both eyes instead of having a red neck.

YOU BETCHA,DYK?BC.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 6 Apr 2010 7:50 pm

Methinks wethinks too much!! $:\$

Who's "we"? Methinks "we" don't think too much. OK, our thinking may not always be as sharp as we'd like, but in our pop-culture, I'll bet that's more a lack of practice than too much practice.

I also don't believe that thinking about and discussing music is necessarily akin to dancing about, let's say, architecture or engineering. It would be akin to thinking about and discussing architecture or engineering, which I think are very important things for any architect or engineer to do. I realize a lot of musicians feel exempt from thinking, but I don't think it will hurt us a bit.

The relevant pop-culture soundbite, "Just Do It", is a catchy phrase, but I think it frequently fails to capture what's actually involved. Thinking may not always be productive in the sense that it will always immediately lead to better action. That doesn't make it worthless - if you don't already know what to do, there's really no choice. Errors may be made, so next time think sharper.

Of course, all this discussing and thinking doesn't have to happen on an open board like this. But if not here - well, what should we talk about here? Oh, I know - let's have a lively and informative discussion about "Why isn't there any country music on the GOO?", "Did you hear that &^%*# on Letterman or AI last night?", or my favorite, "Why you're a weenie if you don't play only REAL COUNTRY shuffles through a justly-intonated black-mica push-pull Emmons into a solid-state Peavey amp."

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 6 Apr 2010 7:58 pm

Dave Mudgett wrote: "...you're a weenie if you don't play only REAL COUNTRY shuffles through a justly-intonated black-mica push-pull Emmons into a solid-state Peavey amp."

Dave, at long last, we finally agree on something...

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 6 Apr 2010 8:06 pm

I didn't edit that phrase, Jim. I just cut a little acronym that mighta' gotten me in trouble with the moderator.

I guess this is as good a place as any for this (I continue to thank Greg Simmons for this little nugget):

Jack Francis · Post by **Jack Francis** » 6 Apr 2010 8:16 pm

Dave Mudgett wrote:
Methinks wethinks too much!!
While "Musing" you could have at least kept my..

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 6 Apr 2010 9:20 pm

OK - it's fixed. I normally manually quote using copy/paste instead of the quote function.

Jack Francis · Post by **Jack Francis** » 6 Apr 2010 9:28 pm

Don Drummer · Post by **Don Drummer** » 7 Apr 2010 11:32 am

Aren't we all left to "think for ourselves"?

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 7 Apr 2010 1:09 pm

[quote="Calvin Walley"]

music is supposed to " touch" you in some way
it simply doesn't need to be complicated
3 chords and the right words can and should move anyone to tears

Calvin with all due respect, there are 300,000,000 people in this nation, should they all just desire one type of music ?

I've heard several 3 chord bands that indeed brought me to tears. I've played in bands where 3 chord players brought me to tears. In fact, when I first started playing Steel in a 3 chord band, I brought them to tears !

Tears appears to be good common term !

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 7 Apr 2010 1:32 pm

And there it is, right?

I know there are folks that love 3 chord tunes. I don't have anything against 3 chord tunes. I sometimes play 2 chord tunes!

But to listen, repeatedly? I need more. I need something that lets me hear new things, musically, every time I listen. I would be bored to tears, speaking of tears, listening to that type of simplistic music. I am one who needs complexity, emotion, and intellect in the music they listen to.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 7 Apr 2010 8:27 pm

Calvin Walley wrote:music is supposed to " touch" you in some way
it simply doesn't need to be complicated

Calvin, the way I'd say it is: You're right, but it doesn't need to not be complicated, either.

Jerome Hawkes · Post by **Jerome Hawkes** » 8 Apr 2010 5:40 am

the simple fact is that americans want to be entertained - no matter how low the art form. jazz is not "entertaining" enough, neither are other forms of the "cultural arts" - thus they have to be subsidized by the government. americans want more liberace (who was a GREAT musician by the way), not coltrane.

there was a segment on NPR with a movie producer about why Hollywood continues to put out junk movies in mass and even the good ones are only good compared to the trash its shown next to...his answer was americans love that stuff and it SELLS - they dont care about the plot or acting, it just has to have HOT actors and action/sex. you NEVER see american "art" films - nobody will finance them cause they lose money.

here is my take from the younger generation...
We are not connected to jazz like the previous generations - when i was in college taking a jazz class we learned all about the HISTORY, NAMES and STYLES etc, all the academic stuff so you could sound hip/knowledgeable at some party when Monk or Dizzy was mentioned. it was some years later that i actually began to LISTEN to what was going on - honestly, you take some college kids who have listened to top-40 radio and throw bebop at them and its totally lost. when i started going back and listening to stuff from the 20's-40's (pre-bop) and working my way up chronologically it started to make sense - you cant start out in 1960, you have to go back to 1920.
i had learned some standards over the years and was surprised to realize how many NON_MUSICAL older people knew these tunes like yesterday - singing the lyrics, remembering the tunes from childhood, movies or their parents records. it has no connection with a different generation - and the modern jazz is so...modern and outside that only musicians or hipsters can appreciate it.

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 8 Apr 2010 5:45 am

Who are these americans we are talking about, any way? the americans in my neighborhood love jazz.

Jerome Hawkes · Post by **Jerome Hawkes** » 8 Apr 2010 6:01 am

Bill, i know you folks who live in NYC think its the center of the universe and all things hip - but its a fishbowl.

i'm sure you visit the jazz forums and there is enough evidence that PRO players cant find more than a sprinkling of club gigs even in large metro areas - they are all trying to get academic positions to make a living - the clubs are closing and the pay is peanuts - many of these pros get by off the european and japan tours they book.

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 8 Apr 2010 6:41 am

Jerome,

There are no lack of jazz clubs here in the fishbowl. clubs are thriving, We opened up a big performing arts space, Jazz at Lincoln Center, with 3 separate performance spaces that are going every day.

And there are certainly more jazz clubs than country music clubs.

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 8 Apr 2010 6:42 am

Jerome Hawkes wrote: i had learned some standards over the years and was surprised to realize how many NON_MUSICAL older people knew these tunes like yesterday - singing the lyrics, remembering the tunes from childhood, movies or their parents records.

Weren't many of the tunes that are now considered "jazz standards" considered "pop" (as in 'popular') music when they were written? "My Funny Valentine" for example,- written as a 'show tune' for the musical "Babes In Arms". Not many "pop" tunes today you can give a jazz treatment, there's just not enough musical "meat" in them for that...

Andy Greatrix · Post by **Andy Greatrix** » 8 Apr 2010 7:37 am

Speaking of Duke, would he have achieved his musical success without Billy Strayhorn?

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Why Americans Don't Like Jazz

quebec,glen beck, double neck single neck.what the heck