The long road ahead-Can we bring real country back.

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 22 Feb 2007 11:09 am

"They say that history always repeats itself. I guess the oldies show that. Hopefully the 'good' country music will do the same. "

I think there will always be a market for this type of retro-music, just as there is a market for other types of retro music like Western Swing, Hawaiian, Rockabilly, Swing, etc. It is just never going to be a mainstream market again. That ship has sailed.

Marlin Smoot · Post by **Marlin Smoot** » 22 Feb 2007 11:56 am

Bill, you may be right. As big as Disco music was in the late 70's, I don't hear people asking for a 'Classic Disco' station.
It's fun to hear it once in a while like at a 70's party, but for me, that's about it.

Disco music almost killed off all forms of music - it was huge and seeped into all formats of music from Bach to Boogie. Yes, even country music was involved to a degree. I don't think I could stand another round of a Disco wave. I know there may be others who would disagree.

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 22 Feb 2007 12:38 pm

Marlin, anyone who disagrees with your stance on disco should get a frontal lobotomy!

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 22 Feb 2007 7:52 pm

I don't think I could stand another round of a Disco wave. I know there may be others who would disagree.

Well, I certainly wouldn't disagree. It was the last straw for me in the mid-70s, at which point in time I swore I would never play out again to avoid being hassled to play it. Some of my favorite blues and country artists (who shall forever remain unnamed) had otherwise good albums ruined by extremely intrusive and annoying disco beats forced upon them. It was 15 years - 1989 - before I played out again.

But I'm sorry - around the northeast, at least, nouveau disco has been running hot and heavy for the last 10-15 years in the form of dance-mix stuff in clubs. Definitely in college towns, as the one I live in right now.

All this discussion - to me - is not related just to traditional country music, but to "real" music at all. So much swill being consumed now is purely trivia electronica - mechanical beat and mechanical melody. Blecccch. Maybe the train left the station, but perhaps it can do a round trip. I know lots of very younger folks who despise what's going on now.

Clyde Mattocks · Post by **Clyde Mattocks** » 22 Feb 2007 7:56 pm

When disco went down, some of the buildings went country for a while. It gave us some nicer facilities and roomier stages to play on. That was disco's only saving grace.

Eric Jaeger · Post by **Eric Jaeger** » 22 Feb 2007 10:54 pm

Dave M has a real point. Live music did snap back after disco, and I haven't seen any sign of a "retro-disco" resurgence. Thank God. Real instruments came back after the synth craze in the 80's. And DJ's and hip-hop don't seem to have killed off live music either (I even saw an "acid/jazz/hip-hop band last week. Self identified as such).

As to real country... I'll toss a bomb that real country isn't a specific sound, arrangement, topic, or instrumentation set, but an attitude most of us know when we see. I like rock'n'roll, but it's got an in-your-face element most country doesn't. I like blues, and there are a lot of attitudinal similarities with country ("white people's blues ?). In a lot of ways you can't tell the difference between Buck or the Hag and a lot of roots rock either. Except the modern stuff is recorded better.

So I dunno, Nashville *hated* Bakersfield at the time, from all I've heard. But I think of Bakersfield as having a "real country" attitude.

And there are a lot of "country" recordings being made these days. I probably have more country CDs from the last ten years than from the previous 30.

-eric

By the way, for those in the Bay Area, Lyle Lovett, Guy Clark, Joe Ely, and John Hiatt are playing together next weekend at the Little Fox. Does that count as "real country" ?

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 23 Feb 2007 12:12 am

I agree that a lot of stylistics is attitude. It's sort of one of those things where "I don't exactly know how to parameterize it, but I know it when I hear it." I can't imagine anybody thinking Buck and Merle are any less "real country" than Jones or Acuff, but I suppose some might.

And I don't know if Lyle, Guy, Joe, and John are "real country", but I do know they are "real". And that's good enough for me.

Marlin Smoot · Post by **Marlin Smoot** » 23 Feb 2007 3:54 am

There was a time when Texas was considered by the record labels in Nashville as the easy place to get their mass appeal county sound played on the radio stations, but that has changed and now Texas is one of the hardest places for Nashville to get records played. Why you may ask?

Because Texas has its own music and artists. There called 'Texas Artist' and they even have their own chart for their music and it has credit in the industry. Check out: Best In Texas Music Magizine.
Guys like Lovett, Clark, Ely are not only accepted but sell out shows in Texas as well.

Maybe because its not just music, its also a lifestyle. New artists crop up all the time, its where Pat Green made the step from regional artist to being picked up by a major Nashville label, partly due to the amount of CD's he sold out of the trunk of his car. Nashville loves record sales.

Is this real country; I think so. Is it the polished up Nashville sound?...sometimes not but thats the interesting thing about it. People in Texas like it real and these Texas artists have that knack thats giving Nashville fits. Something like the days of long ago in Bakersfield. 'Bucking the trend' if you will.

There are over 80 radio stations around Texas that program and report their playlist and this music and chart even reaches into Oklahoma that's called 'Red Dirt' music.

It would be nice to have some of our Texas forum members chime in on this subject of 'real country' in Texas and get their perspective. Its unlike anything or anywhere else, of course...it is Texas.

Herbie Meeks · Post by **Herbie Meeks** » 23 Feb 2007 2:15 pm

Hurrah FOR TEXAS, AND "TEXAS ARTISTS"
I ain't no Texan, But I'll chime in, got a bunch of good friends down there, ( If you see a man wearing a Cowboy Hat, Boots, and a Suit, Do not ask him if He is from Texas,
Just wait a few minutes, and He will tell you.)

Herbie

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 23 Feb 2007 2:21 pm

Herbie Meeks wrote: If you see a man wearing a Cowboy Hat, Boots, and a Suit, Do not ask him if He is from Texas,
Just wait a few minutes, and He will tell you.

Herbie

I haven't heard that one in long time, Herbie. Thanks for bringing it back!

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 23 Feb 2007 2:23 pm

I have to admit I've always been more interested in the music coming out of Texas than Nashville (except for the acoustic music coming out of nashville which I think is some the best music being made today, in any field).

I admit being prejudiced having spent a year in Austin trying to make it. The music at that time: Townes Van Zandt. Lucinda. The flatlanders, both as a group and indivdually, Willie, Waylon, Jerry Jeff, Uncle Walt's Band, Butch Hancock, Ray Wiley Hubbard, the list goes on. That is music for the ages, and it is all still popular and vital in my opinion.

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 23 Feb 2007 2:49 pm

I've been saying for years about the plethora of fine songwriters from Texas: It must be somethin' in the water!

Eric Jaeger · Post by **Eric Jaeger** » 23 Feb 2007 3:41 pm

Bill, you've got a good chunk of my list for "honest music" right there.

-eric

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 23 Feb 2007 4:09 pm

Herbie Meeks wrote: If you see a man wearing a Cowboy Hat, Boots, and a Suit, Do not ask him if He is from Texas,
Just wait a few minutes, and He will tell you.

Herbie

I haven't heard that one in long time, Herbie. Thanks for bringing it back!

Eric Jaeger · Post by **Eric Jaeger** » 23 Feb 2007 11:49 pm

Texas. Any state that gave us Terry Allen and Kinky Friedman can't be all bad!

(ducking)

-eric

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 24 Feb 2007 2:00 am

I like classic country, but I like MANY types of music that
classic country listeners would turn off in half a heart beat too.

Part of the problem is big money demographic marketing,
but even small college stations don't play it, in favor of bluegrass.
More up tempo and americana-ish.

Bottom line: most of the people buying music these days,
can not relate to the lyric content of classic country music,
plain and simple. What worked for grandpa,
reminicing at his local watering hole,
ain't working for the 19 year old grandson.
And make no mistake about it,
this music is almost ALL played originally by people who
are now grand parents, or at least venerable senior citizens.

Some of it was really time and place specific
and has not translated to the current age we live in.
So the young of this age, just don't get it.

Think how much big band music is around still.
Sure it's heard, in elevators and upscale restaurants,
suprise, look who's listening ; grand parents mostly.

Sure a few people can vacilate bewteen new and old,
but for the young, they have to be historically drawn back
into a period to get into it as a retro form.
IF they can identify with it in some way, relative to the
newer artist who likely aimed them backwards in outlook.

Yes the arguement of public airwaves is good,
but you're gonna need a pretty sharp lawyer,
and LOTSA money to push that one through.

Go for it, you might get lucky, but more likely to happen
in a radio/art historical perspective, than on the music's
merits from YOUR perspective.

Like it or not classic country music is relegated to a niche market,
either for the aging (sorry folks)
or the historically researching 2nd stage young
player / singer, looking for influences.
Heck, even Justine Trevino is not a kid no mo.

Time moves on, even if our tastes
don't always keep stride.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 24 Feb 2007 6:44 am

Some of it was really time and place specific and has not translated to the current age we live in. So the young of this age, just don't get it.

I think the great country music is timeless, and neither time-specific or dated. IMO, there is no "the young of this age" - they are not remotely homogeneous. Instead, what I think has happened is that media control has presented a stereotyped parody of what "real" country music is, and that's what most believe. I think if the sizeable minority who listen to more rootsy rock, jam-band music, bluegrass, blues, blues-rock, and even classic rock - anything away from the dance-mix, techno, hip-hop mainstream - caught a serious view of Hank, Lefty, Merle, Jones, and the other greats of the style, many would be able to relate. It already happened with Johnny Cash - it just took someone in the mainstream music biz to take an interest and present him in an honest way. I honestly think this is about self-fulfilling prophecy.

Think how much big band music is around still. Sure it's heard, in elevators and upscale restaurants, suprise, look who's listening ; grand parents mostly.

There was a major swing and jump-blues craze in the late 90s. Brian Setzer, Big Bad Voodoo Daddy, Royal Crown Revue, The Cherry Poppin' Daddys, and a bunch of others had teenagers coming to major shows in zoot suits and fedoras and turning on to people like Louis Prima and Wynonie Harris. If media control had presented this as real music and not as a stupid hyped-up fad, this might have gone somewhere, but that's not the way they like to do business. I really think they want to be in control - presenting things honestly and letting people decide what they want - forget it.

Yes the arguement of public airwaves is good, but you're gonna need a pretty sharp lawyer, and LOTSA money to push that one through.

Maybe it's hopeless - maybe the system is so corrupt that the only way to fix it is to "put in the fix". But I guess I'm not that cynical. At least in the US - all it would take would be a voting consensus that we're sick of the way things are being done now. It could happen, but it requires people to believe it's possible.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 24 Feb 2007 7:30 am

Dave I agree and yet
also you make my point from another direction.

Even with revivals and upswings they's STILL niche musics
and not even close to real comebacks.
We can thank Rick Ruben for bringing Johnny Cash back,
only took 8-9 albums to do it. (He also seems to have resurected the D.C.'s.)

But still only as historical niches.
And not really bringing the classic style back.
Just not lost completely.
I love Crazy Arms, but it ain't likely to get a modern remake
and cross over. Though I WOULD like to to it.

Not trying to be a downer about all this, I like the music too,
I like it more now than I did 30 years ago.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 24 Feb 2007 8:48 am

Even with revivals and upswings they's STILL niche musics and not even close to real comebacks.

Point taken, but my view is that - if one considers sales relative to other popular music styles of the time - traditional country was always a niche music. I'd be totally satisfied if roots music styles like old-school country, blues, rockabilly, swing, and others had a solid, stable niche in the mainstream - to me that would be a "comeback". I have no interest in seeing any style be the dominant style. I would be satisfied if such music styles were given a chance and rejected - but I think that can only happen if their "champions" are allowed to participate in the broadcasting system - kinda tough when a couple of conglomerates own practically the whole shooting match and call all the shots from their executive towers.

To me, musical diversity is good, and any monolith-controlled mainstream dominant mode is bad. My thesis is that the media control outlets are the problem, not the audience. To fix this, I think it's essential that the dominant media control system be toppled. This goes to the entire economic model - I view the current system as pure large corporation welfare - they are given, for a nominal price, total control of an entire industry. Bizarre - I wonder how the neo-cons can sleep at night thinking about what Adam Smith would have to say about this.

I know it's easy to be cynical about this - when you're downwind of any major-dominant power structure, the resulting wind is usually not pleasant - to my senses, anyway.

Eric Jaeger · Post by **Eric Jaeger** » 24 Feb 2007 9:45 am

If non-mainstream music is destined to remain niche (which, by definition, it is) then the question is a different one:

How can we make niche music healthier and expand its reach?

I've argued that there is a change in lifestyle and technology that makes this possible, but it requires an active effort in promotion and merchandising.

I think this is happening. Every band I've worked with has a myspace page, a website, a fan email list, sells CDs and T shirts at shows, and trys to play out as much as possible. They'd all like a major label contract, but none of them are assuming it'll ever happen, and all of them feel that their fan base is growing.

I had a talk with Tom Russell a few months ago, and he said he feels he has more fans now than ever before, and he credits it to a really good computer guy and a lot of effort when he tours to get fans hooked in to his newletters. Al Kooper wrote a column recently claiming that technology was making major labels obsolete.

I may be grasping at straws here, but it looks like there are possiblities, and they're not out of our control.

-eric

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 24 Feb 2007 10:07 am

I think young pro musicians of the future need to read about the Grateful Dead as much possible. I'm a long-time semi-Deadhead, as opposed to those who were hard core Deadheads, and I'm currently reading Dennis McNally's book, "Long Strange Trip." The band became successful by largely avoiding the traditional music industry way of doing things, and some of that Dead historic model would be a good education for younger musicians these days.

But maintaning all this stuff, the "guerilla marketing" style that is out there now, requires quite a bit of work. To do the major label thing means that they have people to do all that stuff for you.

As far as real country, and young people, and timelessness, I was talking to my son about just this thing the other day. I think he might be very slowly coming around to it, but it has a ways to go. He has told me that he doesn't like country in general because of the "stuff that they write about." I don't know what that means, exactly. He's is a good guitarist, and more recently he has taken an interest in my instruments-pedal steel, lap steel, dobro.

He is the only kid I know that has declared his favorite band the Beach Boys, and he thinks the Brian Wilson/Pet Sounds concert we attended last month is his all-time favorite of his young life. We have also taken him to see Eric clapton and Mark Knofpler in the past couple years.

But he also listens to a lot of newer punk and metal.

And now he's getting into jazz-listening to a lot of it, and he is taking a jazz improv class that he really likes at the JC.

But traditional sounding country, I'm still working on him in that area. It'll get there.

Bob Ritter · Post by **Bob Ritter** » 24 Feb 2007 10:59 am

Well I live Near Seattle but a nite I can tune into am 1060 on my radio. It is a classic country station in Calgary Canada. It comes in really clear in the evening they play a lot of honky tonk type stuff..not a lot of Kenny Rodgers and Dolly Parton duets like "islands in the stream" yuk that stuff is worse than some church music man..lol...But I am not gonna wait on the radio to play songs I like I have an Ipod and cd and mp3 all loaded and waitin on me to push play

Steve Hinson · Post by **Steve Hinson** » 24 Feb 2007 11:10 am

Mark,how old is your son?My 15-year-old is crazy about Brian Wilson,too!We have all kinds of books about"Pet Sounds","Smile",etc.I can't quite put my finger on it,but I think part of the reason he likes that stuff so much is because"Rolling Stone'magazine makes such a big deal out of it...

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 24 Feb 2007 11:21 am

Steve-my son is 19.

He got it from me, since I, like several other Forum members as it turns out, are life-long "Wilsonophiles."

The first concert we ever took our kids to, back in 1999 or 2000 I believe, was Brian in San Francisco when he had just started touring again after all those years of being mostly a recluse.

I wanted to get my girls especially, off to a good start in music, rather than driving them to a Britney Spears concert.

I took my son to see Brian again a little over two years ago where they performed the "Smile" album.

All three of the kids play Beach Boys CD's in their cars for their friends. (ages 19, 18, 16)

As far as the Rolling Stone, my son seems to have less use for the magazine and is more cynical about it than many of the Forum members here, when it has come up in threads citing articles like "100 Greatest Guitarists," etc., so he definitely didn't get the info there.

Bob Ritter · Post by **Bob Ritter** » 24 Feb 2007 12:38 pm

in my room would be awsome on steel.