multiple raises/lowers on a Fender 400

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 25 Mar 2006 1:34 am

Jim, just add a screw. Now you can adjust the tuning.
(I can't really see in the picture if this is what you have)

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Peter den Hartogh
1978 Emmons S10 P/P; 1977 Sho-Bud D10 ProIII Custom;
1975 Fender Artist S10; Remington U12; 1947 Gibson BR4;
[This message was edited by Peter on 25 March 2006 at 01:37 AM.]

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 25 Mar 2006 6:07 am

Peter, you nailed it! I actually thought of the same thing late last night...I'll install them today. I'm also going to brace the angles just for insurance, even though nothing moves so far.

By the way - that is an astoundingly accurate picture. How the heck did you DO that?

I'm still going to swap out the cable clamps for smaller and better-fiting split bolts as soon as I can locate some. But overall the system works perfectly. I'll post better pictures later. I'd still like to install a more professional stop system, but since I can't find any sources, it looks like this will do just fine.

With this out of the way, I can concentrate on...what was it? Oh yeah - playing...

But then I DO need to fool with the electronics. Because I can.

It never ends.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 25 Mar 2006 7:04 am

Aw, I hadn't had my coffee yet -

Peter, a couple possible problems. Well, the first is just a parts issue - I'll have to swap out the angle irons for the next largets one and drill a hole for the screw - the existing agles don't have enough room for the extra hole, and the second hole on the larger ones would cause the screw to completely miss the rectangular stop.

The second problem might kill the idea, though. I'm concerned that the cable will twist the stop down (up in the drawing) when the stop hits the screw, lengthening the pull just a hair - and a hair makes a big difference in the tuning of the note.

Test performed using a bolt held against the angle and pressing the pedal - darn it, yep it twists.

So - it's now obvious the tuning adjustment has to be some sort of adjustable ferrule mounted in the angle iron hole that the cable runs through. That's the only way the pul and stop will be straight and accurate.

So I'm back to Donny's bike parts idea. Guess I'll take a spare angle piece to my bike shop guy - he does wonders with modding mountain and racing bikes, he'll probably get a kick out of solving this one...if we can figure it out it'll make a unique addition to the pictures on one wall of hundreds of bikes he's worked on.

That's unless anyone has another idea thanks for all the input - the guitar is really coming together and is really fun to play. 2 or 3 other minor tweaks to make, then it's essentially done except for electronics modifications, which are a never ending experimentation process. But holy smoke, does the two-pickup system and Tele control setup give it some killer sounds.

I kept the 1 meg pots in it - might try 500's and then 250's and see what sounds best. Then I need to look closer at the jag-style pickups and see if they can be run in series. If so, I'll install a 4-way switch...the series position is something most steelers probably wouldn't know about (usually only having one pickupon their guitars), but it adds a ton of mids and a very thick, bone-shaking sound with more output. If that'll work, a phase switch will go on at the same time....

Clyde Lane · Post by **Clyde Lane** » 25 Mar 2006 7:56 am

Jim you need to call Bobbe Seymour, Duane Marrs or Jim Coop and get a barrel tuner. They probably have used one laying around for a few bucks. Slide that tuner over the cable and put a clamp behind it so it don't move. Maybe someone can post a photo of a barrel tuner so you can see the concept.
Good luck
Clyde Lane

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 25 Mar 2006 8:18 am

By the way - that is an astoundingly accurate picture. How the heck did you DO that?

Jim, I can read minds.
For a small fee I'll predict your future.

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Peter den Hartogh
1978 Emmons S10 P/P; 1977 Sho-Bud D10 ProIII Custom;
1975 Fender Artist S10; Remington U12; 1947 Gibson BR4;

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 25 Mar 2006 8:51 am

Here is an Emmons adjustment screw which has a hole in the center.

And here is a Sho-Bud barrel. I dont know yet how to "glue" it to the bracket. Or maybe it doesn't need to be "glued" to the bracket. It will then work as an TUNABLE SPACER.

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Peter den Hartogh
1978 Emmons S10 P/P; 1977 Sho-Bud D10 ProIII Custom;
1975 Fender Artist S10; Remington U12; 1947 Gibson BR4;
[This message was edited by Peter on 25 March 2006 at 09:06 AM.]

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 25 Mar 2006 9:19 am

You can also use the grub screw to fix the barrel to the cable.

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Peter den Hartogh
1978 Emmons S10 P/P; 1977 Sho-Bud D10 ProIII Custom;
1975 Fender Artist S10; Remington U12; 1947 Gibson BR4;

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 25 Mar 2006 11:49 am

Peter, thanks a bunch. I sent the link to Bobbe - hopefully he can dig some up. I ned two for the 400 and another 4 for my 1000, which will be the next project.

This morning I fixed the stops and all the little hangs by re-routing cables, put lighter springs on the lowers, lubed the heck out of it with silicone or Teflon depending on what parts, reset all the turnbuckles and pedal rods...and it plays like butter. Very light touch, smooth, and stays completely in tune. I played the heck out of it for an hour and didn't have to retune or adjust anything - it was that stable.

And it sounds amazing with two pickups - very distinctive tones.

So while I need to really install some more permanent stops, it's basically DONE!! finally! Thanks to everyone who chipped in advice, parts etc - especially Harry Sheppard, Russ Tkac, Lee Wheeler, Fred Shannon, Steve Gambrell, David Coplin, Dave Zirbel, Al Gordon, Donny Hinson...and most importantly Anita and Sneaky. I know I forgot a few people - please forgive me.

I'm gonna go play now...

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 25 Mar 2006 8:34 pm

FWIW I found split bolts, but none small enough to grap the cables. Guess I'll wait to see if any of my emails to dig up some Emmons or Shobud barrel stops get any responses.

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 26 Mar 2006 1:30 am

Hi Jim do you remember the earlier post I made in this thread about how I used the "Sho-Bud barrel"

I said <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Putting stops on the pedals won't work as the cables are somewhat inconsistent in their length, due to temperature etc.

BUT

Here's the workaround to allow double flattening or sharpening on a "1000"
NOT cables on the knee lever just rods with loops and the old Sho-Bud halfstop barrell.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

and

Baz

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Steel players do it without fretting

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 26 Mar 2006 1:35 am

It just bit you !!

Unfortunately I wouldn't know a Shobud half-stop part if it bit me, nor where to find one or how to hook it up, so I think it'll have to be more basic than that - if not, it's going to sit for quite a while until I can afford to have somebody build or install those things.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 26 Mar 2006 6:13 am

Baz - I saw the earlier post and appreciate the attempt - but I confess to not having any idea what I'm looking at in your pics. I really can't tell, but it looks like there may be those barrels installed on the knee lever in your pic, which is the opposite of my situation - the shorter pulls HAVE to go on pedal pulls.

Is your suggestion to convert those particular pulls to rods? If so, that's beyond my capabilities - I need to stick with the cables for now. Please remember I'm really new at this and my "guitar" experience is in electronics, amp repair and finishing....not mechanics. I've played stringbenders for years, but have no idea how I'd ever build one myself.

Like I said, off-the-shelf parts are my limitation, having no fabrication, thread tapping or other machining abilities/equipment. I do notice in the pic what looks like a stop on the knee lever, to the right of the shaft - is that something you can buy, or is it something you have to make? That would be a great improvement in stability over my angle irons, even though they're working OK.

And FWIW around L.A. we have such little temperature and humidity variation that I doubt the cables would be affected. Guitar s in most other regions/countries suffer from tuning variations, "fret sprout" etc - never get that here at all.

And so far - after yesterday playing the heck out of it, it sitting last night, and checking it this morning after temperature variation (it got down to a bone chilling..heehee...55 or so last night...) it's STILL all in tune.[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 26 March 2006 at 06:15 AM.]

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 1 Apr 2006 7:06 am

"You can also use the grub screw to fix the barrel to the cable."

Got it all figured out now - John Cooper is supplying the Shobud Barrels. He looked at pictures of the guitar and thought the barrel over the cable would be the perfect, easily-tunable stop.

I asked him about the brackets used for the stop, and while he said he could make me some it's really not necessary - what I'm using should work just fine, plus the holes happen to line up just right without cables rubbing.

Peter - that second picture is perfect. Exactly how it'll be set up. I'm going to keep that for reference if you don't mind - I may be making cables for some folks and that would come in very handy explaining how some things might work. I don't want to send it to anyone without your OK, though.

It's been a week - only minor tuning adjustments, and our weather has varied wildly. It's very, very stable.

I can't remember (and don't want to look back) if I mentioned what I'm using as "oil". Everything is lubed with Sherwin-Williams "Tri Flow" Teflon lubricant. no sticky oil mess, no gumming of parts, and no dirt pickup. It dries with a microscopic Teflon film. I found it a couple years ago looking for stuff for my son's skateboard bearings (he's a competitve skater) and used it on my b-benders.

It's great stuff on the steel. Really quieted and smoothed things. Also seems MUCH quicker. It was very noticable in the changer, which has a ton of friction parts. I'd recommend i over oil, which when it breaks down and gets gummy means dismantling of the guitar to clean parts properly.

Another note to Fender players - take all your changer finger springs to a hradware store and find ones a little lighter. Might have to cut them to fit. It is REALLY worth it - the lowers become amazingly quick with a light, smooth touch. Still returns very quickly as well. Probably the most important "feel" change on the guitar.

Now I'm just trying to figure out how to get the same effect with the raises....[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 01 April 2006 at 07:09 AM.]

Clyde Lane · Post by **Clyde Lane** » 1 Apr 2006 8:04 am

Jim if you use the set screw, you might want to "tin" that portion of the cable to give the set screw something to bite into instead of the cable.
Clyde Lane

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 1 Apr 2006 11:55 am

Jim, I am glad you got it sorted out.

And you are welcome to use the images for whatever you want to use them for.
After all, this is the Internet and its purpose is to share information.
If I did not want to share them, I would not have published them.

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Peter den Hartogh
1978 Emmons S10 P/P; 1977 Sho-Bud D10 ProIII Custom;
1975 Fender Artist S10; Remington U12; 1947 Gibson BR4;

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 2 Apr 2006 6:50 am

Peter - thanks much! I'd love to know what software you used to create those images - I'm not an artist, but my daughter is and she was interested as well.

Clyde - That's a great idea! Thanks. Easy to do and that really should help stabilize it even more.

It sure is fun to play. Feels smooth controlled, and the tone is completely out of this world. I need to figure out how to post some sound cips of the tonal variations with the two-pickup and tone control setup.

The elctronics are one thing about a lot of "modern" steels that seems really limiting - no volume and tone controls on the guitar. The lack of volume control makes sense because of the usual volume pedal (although there's an interplay between volume/tone controls on these circuits that makes it a bit different than a floor volume), but the tone control makes SO much difference, it just seems odd that i'ts not a standard thing on every guitar.

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 2 Apr 2006 7:32 am

Jim, I used 3D Studio MAX from Autodesk.
I run an animation school in South Africa and I lecture this software.
Here is our website: www.uca.co.za
The images were done using some preset shapes and colors.
I did the first images in about 6 minutes while I was talking on the phone.

I hope b0b wont shoot me because of topic drift

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Peter den Hartogh
1978 Emmons S10 P/P; 1977 Sho-Bud D10 ProIII Custom;
1975 Fender Artist S10; Remington U12; 1947 Gibson BR4;

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 4 Apr 2006 8:58 pm

Well, I got both barrels installed tonite, and it's amazing - so easy to tune, and very solid. I get them to stop just dead on. A couple slight "rubs" also went away, making for a quicker feel. Oh - timming the cabls was a great idea

This guitar is really turning out perfectly. Thanks for all the ideas and assistance, guys.

John Coop · Post by **John Coop** » 5 Apr 2006 12:30 am

Jim..I just love a happy ending!! So glad I could help you out. Just goes to show, it does'nt have to be a Sho~Bud (although that is my first love), a PSG problem is still a PSG problem no matter what the brand! Coop

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 5 Apr 2006 4:16 am

OK Jimbo, how 'bout some underbelly pics of your newly created "frustration".

Phred

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"From Truth, Justice is Born"--Quanah Parker-1904

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 5 Apr 2006 5:20 am

Pics maybe later tonite. Daughter had some health setbacks. Will post when I get time....

Jay Fagerlie · Post by **Jay Fagerlie** » 5 Apr 2006 7:19 am

So Jim,
When do the kits come out?
I want one....
Jay

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 5 Apr 2006 7:56 pm

Man, If I could make knee levers I WOULD make kits! It was a learning experience, but really fun. and I discovered how well-built these Fenders really are, and like I already knew with guitars, how easily Leo and crew designed them to be serviced in the field. That's why we still see so many around, even though they are "non standard" as far as tuning and such.

Anyway - pics follow of the John Cooper-supplied Shobud barrel stops. Just absolutely the perfect part for this use.

And one of a cool little nod to a certain someone at the 12th fret....You either know what it is, or you don't.

Gerald Pierce · Post by **Gerald Pierce** » 5 Apr 2006 10:07 pm

Well done, Jim! Looks like the answer to me.

About the nod at the 12th fret:

Pterodacyl (I had to look that one up in the dictionary)...as seen on his Nudie Suit.

Think of how many steels most of us have owned and played, then traded up to something we just knew was better....newer, "more modern", more expensive, fancy schmancy guitars with precisely machined parts and beautiful exotic woods (nothing against fancy, I've owned a couple of real "lookers"...was even married to a couple of real "lookers".....traded them in too)....

then think about how many different steels he owned and played over the last 40 years or so.

Thrifty!

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 6 Apr 2006 7:02 am

He actually had a lot of different steels over the years, given to him by various manufacturers. He messed around with them but gave 'em away or sold them. I also seem to recall seeing him in '69 or '70 playing a 'burst 1000 with the Burritos at one show, a benefit in Hermosa Beach CA. I'll have to do some digging on that - pics have to be floating around City Hall somewhere....