My D13TH 12 string tuning

bob drawbaugh · Post by **bob drawbaugh** » 10 Mar 2019 7:22 am

I saw Johnny play this tuning in the MSA room at the Dallas show. It sounded great on everything from classic Country to jazz to Western swing.

Aaron Johnson · Post by **Aaron Johnson** » 16 Apr 2019 3:58 pm

Does this look correct with Emmons set up 7P6K and splits? I am really considering giving this a try!

Thanks!

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 16 Apr 2019 4:03 pm

The 7th string, P2 + RKL should split tune to an F note like it would to a G on E9th.

The 11th string, P4 + RKR must split to a G# note for the standard C6th change to work.

The 4th string, P6 + LKR can be split for a D#. I have that on my D6th and some people have it on standard C6th. Not necessary, but I find it handy now and then.

The 6th string has a potential for a split (P3 + P4 = A#), but I'm not sure if it's mechanically possible with the 4 notes already in play. Without the vertical lever, it would be a no-brainer.

Also, your LKLO could split with P6 for a C note on string 5. That's a real nice 9th chord that a lot of C6th players have.

Aaron Johnson · Post by **Aaron Johnson** » 16 Apr 2019 4:18 pm

Thank you b0b!

Aaron Johnson · Post by **Aaron Johnson** » 17 Apr 2019 3:41 am

Looking at it more, what are the thoughts on changing LKV to string 5 B to C and string 8 E to F? That would give straight pentetonic scales with P2.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 17 Apr 2019 6:51 am

LKV is there as part of the E9th "Franklin pedal" changes. The other parts are on the right knee. If you've never felt the need for that pedal, LKV is available.

D13th E to F is the same as E9th F# to G, which used to be considered "standard". Also, D13th B to C is the same as C6th A to Bb, another standard change. Tying them together doesn't interfere with the common uses of those two changes on a D-10. The minor pentatonic scale is a nice bonus.

I think your idea is a good one.

Aaron Johnson · Post by **Aaron Johnson** » 19 Apr 2019 4:13 am

b0b wrote:LKV is there as part of the E9th "Franklin pedal" changes. The other parts are on the right knee. If you've never felt the need for that pedal, LKV is available.

When you have a moment, what would be the disadvantage/advantage of putting the string 6 A to G change on RKR with the other half of the Franklin change? Thanks

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 19 Apr 2019 7:22 am

The disadvantage is that it would mess up the D6th aspect of the tuning big time. RKR is Johnny Cox's brilliant idea that makes the tuning "universal". It retunes the low strings to the same intervals as a standard C6th. If you also lower the 6th string on RKR, you would lose most (all?) of those C6th jazz chords.

What would be the advantage? I can't think of one.

Aaron Johnson · Post by **Aaron Johnson** » 19 Apr 2019 7:52 am

Thank you sir. I’ll wrap my head around this tuning eventually!

Aaron Johnson · Post by **Aaron Johnson** » 25 Apr 2019 3:08 pm

I'm considering trying this with a Day set up. If I were to leave the LKV as a G and put the Pentatonic minor as a pedal. P0 seems a good choice for alignment. I don't fully understand the greater copedant yet but would this work well? Also, if I'm okay with a half stop or two, what are the thoughts on adding one on string 5, B to Bb along with a half stop on string 2, C to B. This would put it at 8 and 5. Thoughts? Any assistance would be appreciated.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 25 Apr 2019 4:57 pm

I wouldn't overload RKR like that. Johnny's original design would be easier to use. You really don't need the changes you're adding to it.

Your P0 idea doesn't interfere with anything and, as far as I can tell, switching to Day doesn't hurt anything.

Aaron Johnson · Post by **Aaron Johnson** » 25 Apr 2019 5:08 pm

Other than removing the half stop on string 5, is there anything else you would consider b0b?

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 25 Apr 2019 6:00 pm

One thing to keep in mind is that you already have B minor pentatonic with Johnny's original RKR. The notes starting on string 10 are B D E F# A B D E F#. Add Pedal 2 and it turns into E minor pentatonic (B D E G A B D E G). There are already pentatonic licks all over the place.

If you have 8 pedals, maybe put the A to G on P0 (where a Franklin pedal would go in a Day setup) and put your new idea on LKV. That way it could be used as a standard lever (E9th "G" and C6th "Bb") as described above.

Sonny Jenkins · Post by **Sonny Jenkins** » 2 Jun 2019 6:53 am

I'm finally getting a guitar ready to put this set up on,,so I thought I'd beeter bring it up closer to the top,,,,wonder if Johnny has any new thoughts on it?

Aaron Johnson · Post by **Aaron Johnson** » 2 Jun 2019 8:11 am

Sonny Jenkins wrote:I'm finally getting a guitar ready to put this set up on,,so I thought I'd beeter bring it up closer to the top,,,,wonder if Johnny has any new thoughts on it?

b0b helped me finish up this version. It should be installed next week on my new guitar. Emmons instead of Day arrangement.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 2 Jun 2019 8:28 am

I think it's worth emphasizing that P4 is designed to work with RKR engaged. The split is not an afterthought. RKR turns the low strings into standard C6th intervals, and P4 is the very standard C6th P5.

Without RKR, the 11th string raise A to A# is marginally useful in my opinion (Johnny Cax may see something I don't). But with RKR, it's G to G#, an essential change.

Dennis Detweiler · Post by **Dennis Detweiler** » 2 Jun 2019 9:52 am

I played a D9/D6 U-12 when it wasn't standardized. When Newman's tuning E9/B6 came on the scene, I tried it and it made more sense to me. I was able to duplicate the C6 recordings and make use of C6 and universal tab.

Johnny Cox · Post by **Johnny Cox** » 5 Jun 2019 4:54 pm

Post Posted 2 Jun 2019 8:28 am Reply with quote
I think it's worth emphasizing that P4 is designed to work with RKR engaged. The split is not an afterthought. RKR turns the low strings into standard C6th intervals, and P4 is the very standard C6th P5.

Without RKR, the 11th string raise A to A# is marginally useful in my opinion (Johnny Cax may see something I don't). But with RKR, it's G to G#, an essential change

Since posting this originally I have found it best to lower string 10 C-B and string 11 A-Ab on P4 rather than have to use it with RKR. It also gives me back the normal E9th, Bs to Bb change.

Johnny Cox · Post by **Johnny Cox** » 5 Jun 2019 5:02 pm

I now have two guitars with these universal tunings. My MSA D12 Legend has the 5pX7k D13th and my Fessenden SD12 has the E13th 7pX6k version. For me personally I like the D13TH 5x7 for its timbre and less foot movements but I haven't played the Fessy on a gig yet.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 5 Jun 2019 6:14 pm

Johnny Cox wrote:Since posting this originally I have found it best to lower string 10 C-B and string 11 A-Ab on P4 rather than have to use it with RKR. It also gives me back the normal E9th, Bs to Bb change.

That makes sense. You don't need the split tuner, and you can give your right knee a rest. Do I have this right?
[tab] P4 ... RKR
1 E
2 C +C#
3 F#
4 D
5 B
6 A -G#
7 F#
8 E
9 D
10 C -B -B
11 A -G# -G
12 D +E [/tab]

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 5 Jun 2019 6:25 pm

By the way, I'm itching to try this. If anyone has a Fessy or Zum U-12 that they would trade for a really nice Carter D-10 (the last one made, never gigged), let me know.

Johnny Cox · Post by **Johnny Cox** » 5 Jun 2019 9:41 pm

B0b you are correct.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 5 Jun 2019 9:46 pm

Here's an update of your chart.

And in numbers:

Johnny Cox · Post by **Johnny Cox** » 6 Jun 2019 9:26 am

I don't know much at all about theory so I have no idea what pentatonic is.I just know that I don't need to lug around a double neck anymore.
All of the other universal tunings are too limited. You always lose something. This tuning gains buy being able to blend both E9th and C6th licks, pedals, ideas and sounds and only thinking in one key/tuning. I wish I had done this 40 years ago.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 6 Jun 2019 10:05 pm

Johnny Cox wrote:I don't know much at all about theory so I have no idea what pentatonic is. I just know that I don't need to lug around a double neck anymore.

All of the other universal tunings are too limited. You always lose something. This tuning gains by being able to blend both E9th and C6th licks, pedals, ideas and sounds and only thinking in one key/tuning. I wish I had done this 40 years ago.

Here is a D13th with the changes in more "standard" positions than Johnny's. I think that the relationships to a D-10 are more obvious with Emmons ABC pedals and the second string half-stop. The D13th Universal concept adapts easily to any U-12 guitar with triple raise / triple lower capability.