D-10 vs U-12

Sidney Malone · Post by **Sidney Malone** » 9 Feb 2006 2:36 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>well one thing i think we can agree on is:
anyone sitting behind a D-10 just looks impressive<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Calvin.....even though it is rarely admitted, I believe that is another one of the major reasons a lot of people choose a D-10. Kinda like it's expected of them.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 9 Feb 2006 3:08 pm

I believe most new players pick a D-10 because that's what most players play and there's more instructional material for it.

Sidney, I believe this statement to be partially correct. There's no reason you can't use regular E9th and C6th courses with a Uni. The only thing would be the key differences between the C6th tuning and the B6th tuning. Just because a course isn't labled "Universal" , doesn't mean it won't work.

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Carter D10 9p/9k, NV400, Korg Triton Le88 Synth, Korg CX-3 organ, Yamaha Motif Rack Module, Regal Dobro, Tele, Gretsch Acoustic.

Paddy Long · Post by **Paddy Long** » 9 Feb 2006 3:31 pm

There is another option which appeals to me as a long time D10 player and that is the 10/12 combo. Extended E9th 12 and 10 C6th -- there are a lot of times when that bottom end on the Ext E9th would be very useful, I usually whip over to the C6th to play bottom end riffs, but it would be really nice to have it on E9th.
And any perceived "extra" weight would be neglible. Would most custom shops build such a beast (I know Fulawka does)

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 9 Feb 2006 3:36 pm

i liked what someone said on a differant thread a while back, they said that hey had both necks tuned to E-9th
if i end up buying a D-10 and tune them both to E-9th at least i would look cool as the dickens haha

Billy Carr · Post by **Billy Carr** » 9 Feb 2006 4:02 pm

Why not have the best of both worlds? Get one of each, a S-12U & D-10. That way, when a player gets tired of playing everything on a S-12U, they can simply get behind the D-10 and play two necks instead of one. Or if they get tired of playing the D-10, then just get on the S-12U. It's all there on either one.

Glenn Suchan · Post by **Glenn Suchan** » 9 Feb 2006 5:46 pm

Hey Billy, that's what I do!!! Emmons p/p D10 and U12

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn

[This message was edited by Glenn Suchan on 09 February 2006 at 05:48 PM.]

Sidney Malone · Post by **Sidney Malone** » 9 Feb 2006 5:57 pm

Sidney, I believe this statement to be partially correct. There's no reason you can't use regular E9th and C6th courses with a Uni. The only thing would be the key differences between the C6th tuning and the B6th tuning. Just because a course isn't labled "Universal" , doesn't mean it won't work.

Yea Richard I know it can be used....but I'm not sure the one's starting out really realize that. I've heard it used so many times as an excuse to not play a S-12. Bad information to say the least.

I certianly didn't mean it to sound like I typed it. What I really meant was people are told that there's not as much instruction material as an excuse to not go in that direction.

I try to steer away from tab based instruction anyway. It tends leads me down the road of memorization if I'm not careful, so I seldom use it. Nothing like a live teacher!!!

I still say a person just needs to figure out which one, or both, works best for them. I would never question anyone's legitimate reason for wanting to play any or many tunings. But when someone implies the S-12 is not "up to par" so to speak, it just ain't so!!!

There's just far more available on any of these tunings than most any of us will ever use. Then at the same time, they are all missing things that could be there. No tuning has "all" the musical possibilities. So we just pick what we like and go with it......

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 9 Feb 2006 9:57 pm

Sidney.. I agree with you and I didn't interpret your statement that way. My post was more to get the idea out to newer players that they didn't need to just use Uni courses. I think a lot of them wouldn't realize this.

Glenn Suchan · Post by **Glenn Suchan** » 10 Feb 2006 6:33 am

As a player with both a very standard D10 guitar and a "bare-bones" U12 guitar, I don't think there are any shortcomings to either instrument when it comes to learning how to play music. I believe the key to learning, appreciating, and most importantly, having fun playing ANY tuning on the pedal steel guitar boils down to two basic points:

1. Understanding basic music theory and why specific
chords are used in song.
2. Knowing how to play scales and where to find specific
chords on your tuning (copedant) of choice. This
means understanding which strings the pedals and
knee levers effect and knowing how that relates to
chords and scales.

I honestly believe, if you can do these two things with your prefered tuning, any tuning can be effective. And what's more, if you can do these two things, you can use any teaching literature (E9th, C6th, B6th, etc.) and translate it to your prefered tuning. The added bonus to this is, when you see tabbed literature and translate it to your tuning, you'll understand why it's tabbed the way it is, instead of just memorizing it's patterns.

So, my answer to the initial question is, try as many of the tunings as you can and learn the one you like best. Chances are, it will serve you well and you'll have fun playing it.

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn[This message was edited by Glenn Suchan on 10 February 2006 at 06:38 AM.]

Ronald Comtois · Post by **Ronald Comtois** » 10 Feb 2006 7:06 am

Seems to me that the U12 uni. verses the D10 problem revolves mainly around the 9th string D note. If you must have that particular note on that string, slap it on a knee lever that will get it for you when you want it. The double neck mystique is one that will be very difficult to shake. Double necks are very impressive to look at! How many times have you seen players with a D10 that can"t play a lick on that bottom neck. Jeff Newman once told me " you"re better to be good on one neck than to be "half-ass" on two, pardon the lingo.
Ron C.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 10 Feb 2006 8:53 am

And, of course, we all now what they say about pickers who "Blame the Instrument".

I like to think of every instrument I've ever played, or will play, as being "Universal".

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 10 Feb 2006 9:17 am

well of course there is always another reason to buy a D10..whether you plan on playing the LOWER TEN or not...

RESALE...

I dare state that an S10 or a D10 will always be a comodity..

If you are gonna sink a few grand into an Instrument, rule of thumb says..be wise..

I am of the mindset that a D10 out sells any other configuration on the NEW and USED market..bar none...

and we haven't even talked about playing a lick yet...

this may get ugly..especially with this top ten thing going on..

My favorite TOP 3 Players..DO NOT play Uni's ! But the UNI playes are in the top 5 or 10 ...

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TPrior
TPrior Steel Guitar Homesite


[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 10 February 2006 at 09:20 AM.][This message was edited by Tony Prior on 11 February 2006 at 08:49 AM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 10 Feb 2006 10:06 am

I still don't understand why WHO PLAYS WHAT is relevant to whether YOU prefer a D-10, S-10, or S-12 guitar. Everyone is different and it's wonderful to have so many choices. Most of my favorite players play D-10's too, but I can still butcher their licks on my S-12 as well as I could on a 10-string.

Why can't we just allow each individual to choose without imparting our own prejudice? I respect those who have played both and returned to a D-10, but I know as many who changed over to a S-12 after many years playing a D-10. I don't even listen to the opinions of those who are badmouthing something they have never tried. I've played both and made my choice. I grant others that same latitude.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 10 Feb 2006 12:32 pm

Seems to me that the U12 uni. verses the D10 problem revolves mainly around the 9th string D note. If you must have that particular note on that string, slap it on a knee lever that will get it for you when you want it.

It's not the same. Not at all. If I'm raising my F's for a diminished chord, I would have to raise B to D. But if I want the D to be the 7th of a low E-based 9th chord, I would have to lower the E to D. So it takes two knee levers to replace the D string. And since a knee is tied up, you don't have as many options available for the other strings.

My favorite TOP 3 Players..DO NOT play Uni's ! It may even be top 25, or 50 or maybe 100 !

Joe Wright is in my top 3, and Jeff Newman is in my top 5. Still, I don't play U-12 or D-10. Neither gets down to the basics like an Extended E9th, IMHO.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog [This message was edited by b0b on 10 February 2006 at 12:37 PM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 10 Feb 2006 12:42 pm

If I'm raising my F's for a diminished chord, I would have to raise B to D. But if I want the D to be the 7th of a low E-based 9th chord, I would have to lower the E to D.

I do both -- have for years -- there are valid reasons for doing both. If I want a dim or 7b9 chord I'll lower 8 to D and lower 7 to F. E to D on 8 is like P6 on C6.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Ernest Cawby · Post by **Ernest Cawby** » 10 Feb 2006 1:52 pm

Larry Bell have you noticed the guys playing u12s are very good at it, yourself, Joe Turner, John Le Mastersif I could play half of wht you and John play I would switch to u12 in a heart beat, I tried one and spent just one evening with it and carried that new Zum back to Jack conyer.

ernie

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 10 Feb 2006 4:14 pm

I agree with b0b that it's not the same having the D on a lever, but that is why I prefer it on a lever. I can get it when I want it, and it's not there mucking up my low strums when I don't want it. And I like the sound of moving back and forth to the D with the lever. And I don't have to worry about blocking it when I go to the next chord without it. Sure there are a few specific things I can't get on my uni that some people can get on a D10 or extended E9, but there are also other things I can get that they can't. You can't get everything on anything. You makes yo choices, pays yo money, and you takes what you gits.

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Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 11 Feb 2006 6:38 am

If you must have the B,D,E,F# sequence in the middle, then add a lock to your Uni to hold it in when you want...that adds another way to use the Uni...talk about a flexible structure!

Ronald Comtois · Post by **Ronald Comtois** » 11 Feb 2006 7:38 am

The bottom line is, play the configuration that makes you happy!I have always blamed Jimmy Day for my desire to play steel. Met him at the Lone Star Ranch in New Hampshire in 1962 or '63. He was playing with George Jones at the time;I was just mesmerized by the sound that came out of his Sho=Bud amp. I had the opportunity to talk to him after the show , and that is what led to buy my first steel in 1964;it . Ron C.

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 11 Feb 2006 8:46 am

Hey RC...I know that place well!

Jon Jaffe · Post by **Jon Jaffe** » 11 Feb 2006 10:09 am

I have been playing a U-12 since '79. Last night at a gig I was thinking about this thread. We were playing "Time Changes Everything". When we were done I realized that I had used 5 different pedals and 3 knee levers. There was no conscious decision to play either E9 or B6. It was all the same instrument. There was no locking in or out. Sometimes a chord or phrase is available when my foot is by the AB pedals and sometimes it seems more natural when my E is flatted. To me that is the advantage of the universal.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 11 Feb 2006 11:14 am

Jon
You said a mouthfull, brother
I've been saying that for years
It's ONE BIG TUNING with all combinations of each and a bunch of synergies that aren't there on two necks.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 11 Feb 2006 11:22 am

On a practical level, there's just too many strings on a 12 for me to locate my 'home' string in an emergency.

I've played 10 stringers for so long that I just can't immediately see the 8th (home) string when I play a 12. (Extended E9)

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 11 Feb 2006 11:22 am

Amen brothers Jaffe and Bell.[This message was edited by David Doggett on 11 February 2006 at 05:16 PM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 11 Feb 2006 12:55 pm

Sir Richard,
You get used to it after about 30 years -- at least that was my experience.

All seriousness aside, I sometimes have a hard time getting used to a 10-string after only playing 12's for so long. But I sit down to my 12-string and my fingers go right to 8,6,5. I home in from the 1st string and actually wrap my pinkie around it some times. It's the same distance from the top down on a 12 as it is a 10. Problem I have with a 10 string is that pesky 9th string that I eliminated decades ago.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps