U.P.S Woes

A. B. Traynor · Post by **A. B. Traynor** » 30 Dec 2005 7:51 pm

But , why would it be tat there was NO RECORD of the guitar ever leaving West Col;umbia, SC. There was an Arrival sacn, but NO DEPARTURE SCAN. UPS USA has given me a few different answers. At first they said that it has left the US and has been delivered into Canada. Lately USA is telling me that it in fact has not left the US. The LAST PHYSICAL SCAN WAS IN WEST COLUMBIA SOUTH CAROLINA. IT WAS AN ARRIVAL SCAN THERE IS NO DEPARTURE SCAN FROM SC. UPS Canada is telling me that THEY HAVE NO RECORD OF IT EVER BEING HERE. IF IT WAS HERE IN CANADA IT WOULD ABSOLUTELY HAVE BEEN SCANNED is what Canada is telling me. From the 13th to the 18th the status was "in delivery". On the 19th the status was changed to "exception". I can assure you that initially I did not contact them about an address change. Why it would say that at 1:51 pm "the reciever requested the package be delivered to an alternate address" is beyond me. I absolutely did not ask them to deliver it to a different address. However, at 6:54 I did call them- I had inquired about all this activity and asked what address it was being delivered to. THEY HAD IT GOING TO THE WRONG ADDRESS!!!! I Had them change it to the correct address.

Right now, I want some answers as to WHAT IS GOING ON. I have been told by the 1-800 # people that the trace department does not deal with the public at all. They will not give me any phone #s to any trace rep. Also, they do not make avaliable to the public the phone # to their overgoods warehouses ( The place packages go that are undeliverable; that have no markings on them at all.) This box has my address AND the return address written on it with a black magic marker in large block letters. I JUST DONT GET IT!!!!!!!!!!!! [This message was edited by A. B. Traynor on 30 December 2005 at 07:53 PM.]

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 30 Dec 2005 8:19 pm

Its unfortunate but true that their customer service over the phone is horribly inept and lacking in many respects. Ive found that I almost always have to request to speak to a manager when problems arise...even then..very unsatisfactory results if there is a problem.

Again Adam, they are only gonna wanna speak to the shipper. The last scan is very close to where you are in Canada..that is encouraging!

A. B. Traynor · Post by **A. B. Traynor** » 30 Dec 2005 9:14 pm

But, the last PHYSICAL SCAN, in other words, where the package ACTUALLY PHYSICALLY WAS, is West Columbia, South Carolina, USA.

The scans after that, on the 19th are all EXCEPTION SCANS. UPS claims that those exception scans were manually entered. On the 19th there are 4 scans- one at 1:51 pm on Annacis Island British Columbia, Canada. Three in Hodgkins, Illinois, USA at 3:22, 3:25 and 3:28 pm respectively, and the fourth at 6:48 pm (the one that I had entered). How can the package go from British Columbia, Canada at 1:51 pm and be in Illinois less than 2 hours later and then be sent back to Canada 3 hours later??????????????????????
[This message was edited by A. B. Traynor on 30 December 2005 at 09:16 PM.][This message was edited by A. B. Traynor on 30 December 2005 at 09:17 PM.]

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 31 Dec 2005 5:00 am

well an incorrect address..thats not something that UPS does..they don't write the lables..

That I am afraid is the main issue...

AN incorrect address trying to clear Customs ? Now thats something I would imgine could be a real issue...One of the things that they MAY do in Customs is verify the delivery address...

This needs to be handed over to the SHIPPER..NOW..TODAY...they should be the ones stressing..they are the ones who will be out the 5 grand especially if it can be shown THEY used the wrong delivery address..That is not UPS's or any other shippers fault...

I am totally suprised that they even allowed you to change the delivery address...that is basically SHIPPING TABOO....think of it this way, an International package is in customs, then all of a sudden there is a delivery address change part way thru the journey..I bet thats a RED FLAG of huge proportion.

Every shipper states delivery times and schedules based on acuurate information..it is the responsiblity of US..those that ship, to provide accurate information, and especially going over an International border...

Making a manual address change in an automated system is a nighmare...even if you change the address someone still has to find that exact package and place a correction lable on it..changing it in the system only tells them where to ship it, once they actually find it and place a new lable on it. Someone has to have it in there posession.

Knowing this now puts a while new spin on this situation, this may have nothing to do with UPS in the normal scheme of things..this is a tuff call...

I made a zip code error with two packages going to SC once..too much strange detail..both packages where in the area, but at two separate locations, probably not more than 10 miles apart. UPS pretty much could not handle MY error, they did not have the manpower to find the packages and then correct them, at least not in areasonable amount of time. What happened was one of my clients, who actually knew the second client, drove to both locations and picked up the packages, BUT I had to clear it..as I was the shipper. In the UPS scan system they fixed the Zip Codes, but they still had to retrieve the packages to make that happen, and that was not that easy...[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 31 December 2005 at 06:57 AM.]

A. B. Traynor · Post by **A. B. Traynor** » 31 Dec 2005 6:07 pm

I have a strong feeling that it was UPS that damaged the label. They called the shipper and asked the shipper to provide them (them being UPS) with the destination address. I belive that the shipper provided the correct address;however UPS entered the wrong address. This is why I had to have them correct the address again. After this point, it is now either my belief that someone stole the guitar, or UPS is simply too incompetent to know what they did with the guitar.

[This message was edited by A. B. Traynor on 31 December 2005 at 06:07 PM.]

A. B. Traynor · Post by **A. B. Traynor** » 1 Jan 2006 10:38 pm

Still nothing. My gut feeling is that it has been permanently lost or stolen.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 2 Jan 2006 6:36 am

AB, not to drag this out..but who first addressed the shipment ? Why would UPS call the shipper for an address if the initial Tracking # had the address to begin with ? This part is confusing to me...

Was the correct address NOT in the system from the get go ?

UPS has not been working since Friday, and I do not think they are working today either.

Mark Vinbury · Post by **Mark Vinbury** » 2 Jan 2006 6:59 am

It seems to me if the To and From addresses are written on the box

This box has my address AND the return address written on it with a black magic marker in large block letters. I JUST DONT GET IT!!!!!!!!!!!!

then you or the Franklins will eventually hear somthing even if the UPS sticker is damaged.
UPS is going to need to find a phone number which is going to require someones personal attention.No doubt this kind of work is put on the back burner at this time of year.
I'd also guess they'd step up the search if you file a claim for the insurance.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 2 Jan 2006 7:32 am

"f you file a claim for the insurance."

He can't. That has to come from the shipper.

Maybe I missed something in the many posts - but has Franklin done ANYTHING to help? They should be calling UPS every day - the guitar is theirs until it reaches the shipping destination safely. The buyer should not have to do ANY of this work.

Theresa Galbraith · Post by **Theresa Galbraith** » 3 Jan 2006 7:00 am

Jim,
My parents are doing everything they can!
It's UPS's fault!

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 3 Jan 2006 8:54 am

Theresa - that's great. AB just hadn't mentioned much about their involvement, and Franklin is the one with a contract with UPS, not AB (I'm surprised UPS is giving him much info at all since he's not the consignee).

The tracking confusion certainly is UPS fault. The time it's taking for the shipment to arrive, though, is really not unusual this time of year (and I've done a ton of shipping during the holidays - it's always delayed), plus there is still the question of a possible hold in either UPS brokerage or customs in Canada.

I still think it'll surface within the next week or so. A month for any international shipment during the holidays is about par in my experience, and weirdly Canadian shipments often take longer than those to Europe!

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 3 Jan 2006 10:29 am

A month for a ground shipment from the US to canada is not acceptable holidays or not. I just called UPS and they GUARANTEED delivery to Vancouver BC, Canada of a 70LB, declared value $6000, package by thursday if i ship it today. Thats the US to canada using standard UPS service guaranteed in 2 days. I live in seattle which is a little closer to canada, so add a day or two maybe from Nashville...but its guaranteed in days, not weeks.....

what Adam is experiencing is NOT just your normal holiday shipping mess.

BTW if you ship alot of stuff UPS you want to go over your bill with a fine tooth comb every month. Their "guarantee" means you dont have to pay for anything delivered late, even a day late...so i used to get a buncha free deliveries from them when they missed their guarantees, but more importantly UPS would ALWAYS add charges or over charge me so it was absoluetly necessary to check every shipment Their billing is horrible!!!! One of our employess job was 25% just checking up on UPS so theyb wouldnt overbill us...just awful.[This message was edited by Ben Jones on 03 January 2006 at 10:37 AM.]

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 3 Jan 2006 5:58 pm

there is no time guarantee for anything going thru customs..nobody can make that guarantee...

The UPS agent must have stated typical and usual..they have NO control at Customs counters..

that being said, I shipped probably 40 packages UPS between the DEC 15th and Dec 20th..they all arrived by the 23rd..all USA though...

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 3 Jan 2006 8:13 pm

I copied this from the UPS site under their "terms and Conditions":

The guarantee does not apply to UPS commercial and residential Ground shipments or UPS Standard to Canada shipments that are picked up or scheduled to be delivered between December 12 and December 24.

This is in reference to delivery time guarantees.

Also, when you recieve your package, open it front of the driver BEFORE you sign for it to inspect for damages. DO NOT wait and take into a UPS office after the driver has left. It is the drivers job to report damage exceptions at the time of delivery. If you think you are having a rough time tracking your package, just try claiming damage to an item once you have signed for it. With this package being in their system for this long, you can bet it has hit the ground at least once.

------------------
Carter D10 9p/9k, NV400, Korg Triton Le88 Synth, Korg CX-3 organ, Yamaha Motif Rack Module, Regal Dobro, Tele, Gretsch Acoustic.

A. B. Traynor · Post by **A. B. Traynor** » 3 Jan 2006 8:29 pm

Something has obviously gone wrong. The time it has been unaccounted for is pushing the envelope. This is not about a late delivery. This is about a LOST PACKAGE. UPS has even said that the PACKAGE IS LOST. UPS has no idea where it is. They say the last place that it was was in Illinois on the 19th of December. After this time, they have no records of where it is or where it has gone to. I have a strong suspicion that it was stolen. I am feeling absolutely heartbroken about this. I waited a long time and put up a lot of money for this instrument and I am heartbrokrn that this is happening. All I can do is pray that the guitar makes it to me safely.
[This message was edited by A. B. Traynor on 03 January 2006 at 08:36 PM.]

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 4 Jan 2006 4:45 am

A.B.

I am thinking this story is now way over due for the shipper to FILE the claim...

I am not sure what the hold up for this may be..

Joe Alterio · Post by **Joe Alterio** » 4 Jan 2006 5:38 am

Maybe I missed something in the many posts - but has Franklin done ANYTHING to help? They should be calling UPS every day - the guitar is theirs until it reaches the shipping destination safely.

This is not necessarily true. Many companies make a point of including a term called "FOB (Free On Board) Shipping Point" on their contracts. Basically, this means that the ownership of the item changes to the buyer immediately upon the seller handing the merchandise to the shipper. I believe even without this language, this is considered the default (????).

The flip side of this would be FOB Destination Point, which is rarely used. This means ownership of the merchandise is not transferred until it actually reaches its destination.

Joe

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 4 Jan 2006 6:03 am

Joe - having dealt with UPS exclusively for years, unless something has recently changed I'm sure the FOB point iis the shipping point - meaning the shipper has to file all claims. In cases of damage, the receiving party can supply evidence of a claim (pictures of damage, etc) but the shipper has to generate the claim, especially in cases of lost shipments.

Joe Alterio · Post by **Joe Alterio** » 4 Jan 2006 6:22 am

By definition, FOB shipping point means all responsibility transfers to the *buyer* upon the goods being handed to the shipper by the seller. In the absence of agreements to the
contrary, damages sustained prior to that point in time are the responsibility of the seller, while those after that time (including during shipment) belong to the buyer, and each must file claims for damages accordingly.

The fact that a buyer pays for shipping is a large factor in proving out that the terms were FOB shipping point.

If you do a search on the term on Yahoo or Google, you will see what I say proves out. This is basic business law.

In any event, I do hope that the guitar is found and delivered.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 4 Jan 2006 6:23 am

General terms are the shipper gets the refund

Only AB can state what the shipping terms were/are.

I often due UPS call tags which makes me the shipper and the receiver...

t[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 04 January 2006 at 01:49 PM.]

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 4 Jan 2006 7:28 am

yes, shipper files claim, shipper deals with UPS, buyer does not own till receipt, shipper takes loos, not buyer.

Adam said that the shipper has filed a "tracer" so it is NOT too late for a claim. The tracer takes ten (?) business days I think, during which time they dont really do anything special trust me...they are not scouring the warehouses for Adams package, they are simply waiting for the tracer to expire so they can turn it into a claim. Ive never had a tracer turn up anything, what happens is they start the claim and then sveral weeks later just before the claim is settled the package has appeared. I think out of a couple thousand shipments only one ever went totally missing gone gone gone and that was something sent to Italy where the post is notorious for opening and stealing your mail.

Joe Alterio · Post by **Joe Alterio** » 4 Jan 2006 10:02 am

yes, shipper files claim, shipper deals with UPS, buyer does not own till receipt, shipper takes loss, not buyer.

I don't believe this is true. The shipper has already received funds and upon handing the package to the shipper, is free of further obligation. Thus, if the package is damaged or lost in transit and the terms were FOB shipping point, the buyer takes the loss.

But I could be wrong....especially considering Tony says that the party shipping always gets the refund. I guess that's because the party doing the shipping is the one physically handing the money to the shipper, even though 99% of the time this is money that ultimately came from the customer.

Regardless, most companies are willing to work with you and want to see their customer happy and satisfied, and it is nice to see that Franklin Guitars is in that category. But in all legality, I believe (I could be wrong) that Franklin has satisfied their obligation and there is no loss incurred by them. They have received their revenue for the steel and ownership passed to the buyer when the steel was given to UPS to ship.

Sorry to have steered this off course, A.B.!!! I really enjoy the occassional business discussion, yet I know this isn't helping you at all. I really do hope you get your steel soon!!!

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 4 Jan 2006 10:56 am

Well im no lawyer..not even a businessman, but I have worked as a shipper for years and can tell you that the shipper is the one who must insure the shipment. Therefor if there is any claim on that insurance to be made, it is the shipper who must do so, as the shipper is the one who has paid the insurance premium, set the value, etc. If there is some legal clause that staes ownership transfers immediately to buyer as soon as it leaves the owners shop, I am unaware of that and it, in my years of shipping experience, is never inforced. If you order books from amazon.com and ups looses the package, amazon does not say "tough noogie, you go deal with UPS"...and thus it is with any business transaction Ive eevr seen involving shipping. If the buyer does not receive...he cannot be charged.

Maybe there is some weird law tho..I dunno. but most companies dont operate that way, if they did, they wouldnt be in business very long.

Bottom line, i can assure you...shipper must make the claim.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 4 Jan 2006 12:31 pm

I only know things from own experiences..I barely know the things I am supposed to know...

I do know that in ALL of my dealings with all shippers , each side of the deal, the shipper filed the claim and got the check if awarded..

I know what I have been told by UPS, as a UPS account guy...

Perhaps this scenario is different, there is no possibly way I could know that

Willis Vanderberg · Post by **Willis Vanderberg** » 4 Jan 2006 4:13 pm

I have had two losses with UPS. The standard scenario has been this. The guitar arrived damaged.The receiving party contacted UPS. UPS proceeded to inspect the instrument. Then notified me of the damage and forwarded to me the paper work to apply for a claim of reimbursement.
In one case the guitar was returned to me immediately and I sent the purchaser his money back.UPS refused to pay the claim as they felt it wasn't packed properly.
In the most recent case, I shipped a LeGrande lll. When it arrived the e 9th pick up was all broken apart. It appeared to me the guitar had been dropped from a considerable height and landed upside down.
The receipient called UPS immediately and they sent a person out to inspect it. I was notified of the damage. UPS asked if it was repairable. I gave them an estimate for the repair and they approved it and the word I received from them on Tuesday the 2nd of January was the check is on the way to me. The shipper is responsible and must file the paper work.I will send the funds on to the buyer.

Bud
PS: The first guitar they destroyed was a 1941 Martin D-18 and they wouldn't even refund the amount I paid for the worthless insurance.