Are pedal steel concepts out-moded?

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 17 Nov 2005 5:33 am

Charlie,
Why is evolution so important to you?
Evolution is usually a SLOW change over time that eventually refines something.

Not sure why you feel Bill Stafford is evolving more rapidly than others. I'm pretty sure he's been playing basically the same E9/B6 universal 14 string tuning for more than 30 years.

Ed has always had a bunch of great ideas and is a master at analysis. But the proof is in the pudding. How many use the '13 series' tuning? Has it ever been on a record?

Just food for thought, my friend.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 17 Nov 2005 5:37 am

Good food, Larry.

The more I think, the less I know.
But it's hard not to speculate about what a revolution in the pedal steel could mean.
I'm young (at pedal steel), and therefore impatient.
That's why I seek professional counselling here. Cheaper than a shrink.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 17 Nov 2005 5:48 am

But just to add a thought: were it not for my respect for the seasoned pros on this forum, I would not bring such subjects up.
It's certainly not to read my own opinions posted, and never to diminish the accomplishments made on this complex instrument. But it's so fascinating I can't help but imagine it with twin engines and wings.

Without this forum, there'd be no place to ask or speculate, no place to dream or wonder (about pedal steel)--it'd be a vacuum.
If I am inexperienced, curious, and sometimes bothersome, my motives are sincere.
Thanks all! I mean it! No brownosing!

And I'm even starting to question my desire for 14 strings....

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 17 Nov 2005 5:51 am

how about a FIXED knee lever stop for the 2nd string D..?

There, everyone can be happy....

So you guys that tune the 2nd string to D..

do you now have a double raise to get the D# and the E ? [This message was edited by Tony Prior on 17 November 2005 at 05:59 AM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 17 Nov 2005 6:36 am

yep -- two separate levers on my guitars

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 17 November 2005 at 06:39 AM.]

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 17 Nov 2005 6:36 am

Now THAT'S what I'm talkin' 'bout, Tony! A modification that reflects a common change--II or IVm/M, passing thru V and resolving to I--being reflected in the mechanics of the thing.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 17 Nov 2005 7:03 am

Larry, yes , I understand two levers, but is the raise a half stop to the D# then another pull to the E ?

I also have two levers for the 2nd string with the natural being the standard typical D#...

Charlie, I hear what you are saying but at the end of the day it's still the same Instrument with the same tuning ,pulls and lowers..just sort of mixed up a bit...

How one person gets a D or a D# is irrelevent..both of the notes are still there..

Ron Sodos · Post by **Ron Sodos** » 17 Nov 2005 7:27 am

I have 2nd string tuned to D. I have 2 levers going left left. O)ne raises D to D# the other raises D to E and F# to G#. They are both very easy to get to. My Left right lowers D to C# and lowers the 9th string as well. Works perfectly. I also have the B lower on the vertical Left leg. Not as easy to get to for me but I use it. When I first styarted moving the knee levers around from the standard 2nd string D# I was able to do things that I never did before. The double stop was always awkward. So I rartely was able to get down to D comfortably. For years I avoided the pedal because it was awkward. Now i find myself using those changes all the time. I love it. Also as Larry said up above the open D is used more often than the D# in chords on the E9th neck. If I am going to use lots of major 7th chords I will be on the C6th neck.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 17 Nov 2005 8:03 am

The real evolutionary steps take time, as Larry pointed out. Twenty years ago, F# to G was the most popular 4th lever. Today it's F# to G#, often coupled with a D# to E. Evolution.

20 years ago, a 4th pedal on E9th was unusual. Today it's very common, with the 3 full-step lowers popularized by Paul Franklin.

20 years ago, most C6th players had a high G string. Today, most have a D in that slot and a lever to raise high C to C#. Evolution.

12 string "universal" tunings are no more popular today than they were 20 years ago. They are played by about 10% of players. I don't think that they are a fad, but I doubt that the concept will ever reach critical mass in the market.

The only new pedal steel concept to arrive in recent memory is the doubled middle E of the sacred steel tuning. It allows rhythmic strumming in a way that none of the more popular copedents can emulate.

Does the SS double E render the D E F# string arrangement obsolete? I don't think so! But it has all the notes and it's easier to play simple parts on it. More complexity doesn't help sell the steel to new players. They need something that's easy but versatile.

I don't believe that more strings, more changes and more electronics are the forces that will drive steel's future. The instrument as it stands today is extremely versatile, and much of its musical potential remains untapped. The simplicity of the violin, guitar and piano is their ultimate strength.

You don't push an instrument into other kinds of music by changing the instrument. You do it by changing the notes that you choose to play.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 17 Nov 2005 9:01 am

There's an old saying- If it ain't broke, don't fix it

..........What if you don't have the wisdom to know if it is broke?

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I'd rather be opinionated, than apathetic!

[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 17 November 2005 at 09:04 AM.]

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 17 Nov 2005 11:04 am

You can sum up my feelings by these quotes...

Either you can play or you can't. How you tune your 2nd string will make very little difference.

How one person gets a D or a D# is irrelevent..both of the notes are still there..

You don't push an instrument into other kinds of music by changing the instrument. You do it by changing the notes that you choose to play.

Good words, all!

There's no "best way", and regretfully...no real short cuts. The instrument's in it's infancy, frankly...no one's mastered it yet. As I've said here many times, the biggest problem lies between the seat and the steel.

Let's quit arguing and analyzing and just play the damn thing!

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 17 Nov 2005 11:28 am

I drew up a chart for a 10-string tuning based on a diminished chord - C Eb Gb A C Eb Gb A C Eb low to high. Each of the five pedals would raise octave strings 1/2 step (P1 and P5 are duplicates). Every pair of pedals you step on would give you a 6th chord. Each of the four levers lowers octave strings a 1/2 step. Each lever would give you a 7th chord.

The great advantage is that it would eliminate the asymmetrical intervals between strings that make playing the same lick in different places difficult, and it would make harmonizing much easier. There's a lack of major 7th intervals unless you slant, but I do (slant) and forward slants open up a world of possibilities with this tuning.

The two big drawbacks I saw were:
A) there is no open position, you'd always have to be holding something down;
B) Playing 1->4 or 1->5 chord progressions would require a lot of half-step fidgeting, consequently requiring good blocking skills.

The only way I could ever utilize this tuning would be to kidnap an eight-year-old and lock him in the dungeon with it for a decade, though; I wish I'd though it up when I was eight years old.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 17 Nov 2005 11:41 am

Tony,
I don't use half stops -- haven't for 25 years or more. Just don't like the feel of a 'feel stop'.

I lower D to C# on one lever (RKL), raise D to D# on another (RKR), and to E on still another (LKR -- along with F# to G# on both 1 and 7).

FWIW.

I think WAAAAAY too much is being made of what changes are where and the minutiae of the tuning details. A good musician can play good music on most any tuning.

Also, I hope my statement about Ed Packard's 13 series tuning was not taken wrong. I believe it is a GREAT tuning. It is just not widely used. It is very similar to Julian Tharpe's 14 string 6/9 tuning and to Zane Beck's 12 string version of the same. It makes wonderful musical sense, but is a pretty wide diversion from the most widely accepted pedal steel tunings.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 17 Nov 2005 1:08 pm

..........What if you don't have the wisdom to know if it is broke?

Curt has an excellent observation.

It could be that the person who started this thread (and it's unravelling as we speak...) doesn't have the experience to know what works and doesn't?
Let's forgive him for his 'youthful' indiscretion.
But I'll bet he's got an answer to his question!
(And I'll also bet that on his next guitar, he changes up ALL the pedals and levers and doesn't publish his copedant. Silly guy.
Some folks can't leave well enough alone.)

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 17 Nov 2005 4:01 pm

youthful?????
yeah, right

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 17 Nov 2005 4:04 pm

You can fool some of the people some ... wait, it's you can fool all the ... mmm. you can fool yourse... mmmm

It was worth a try.

Michael Garnett · Post by **Michael Garnett** » 17 Nov 2005 4:28 pm

Charlie, man. You need to swing by the house sometime. And enroll in a music theory class out here at South Plains College. The Pedal Steel guitar is the engineering embodiment of voice leading and music theory.

Whether the guys that started it thought "Oh, that sounds cool" or "If I change that string, I have a different chord" is irrelevant. Seeing the theory lay out across the neck is a wonderful thing. I have brief moments of levity, followed by weeks of smashing my head against the wall shouting "I HATE THIS THING!"

I'm busy this weekend and next. School's about out, but you're welcome to come out and pick anytime.

-MG

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 17 Nov 2005 5:35 pm

I feel grateful that for whatever reasons I had only one PSG, with only one basic setup (D10 8+2), for the first 25 years of my steel playing life. It taught me to search for what I really wanted. Even though I was always more interested in playing various forms of jazz than I was into being a C&W steel picker at first, I was able to find a world of music on my most standard of setups. Actually I'm also really grateful that it was the steel guitar that actually taught me to love and appreciate great country music. Not the other way around.

The standard E9/C6 (or E9/B6) has an endless universe of music if you look hard enough.

That being said...as a guitar player and keyboard dabbler, I kept running into conceptual black holes in my steel playing that my copedant was simply not revealing any logical answers for. So I have to say that at some point, if your'e not hearing what you want, it's only right to look for other ways. If your music needs a change that youre hearing in your head, I say go for it. I'm advocating experimentation, but I do think learning the tried and true basics is ulimately more important at first. There is no way that any pedal steel will ever have a one-note-per-note quality like a piano or horn, that's the beauty of our axe, so there's no reason why all variety of other changes can't be tried. The concept of a "standard" is pretty subjective IMHO.

Look what so many of the greats evolved into after starting with 6 string lap steels. [This message was edited by Rick Schmidt on 17 November 2005 at 05:41 PM.]

Buck Dilly · Post by **Buck Dilly** » 17 Nov 2005 6:32 pm

Good thread. Thank you.

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 17 Nov 2005 6:41 pm

Charlie, et al...have you heard what Al Vescovo does with 14 strings tuned C6? Something different. He is West Coast.

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 17 Nov 2005 7:48 pm

have you heard what Al Vescovo does with 14 strings tuned C6?

Al Vescovo could do more with a rubber band streched between 2 nails, than most of us could no matter how many strings and pedals and knee levers we had.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 18 Nov 2005 4:31 am

I see once again that my pedal steel education is lacking. Al Vescovo--I'll check him out.

I think the search is the thing, like Rick says. I'll keep searching.
It's like a life: you sense there's something out there (whether there is or not--most everything we 'outpicture' is really inside), and you search until you find it or you don't. If you don't, something is bound to change.

Maybe this topic is all about personal evolution and not steel evolution. That to me is what the pedal steel is, as music is, to me, not a life or a living, but a way.
Pedal steel reveals another side of things, and seems to have a theory of its own. I believe it takes more searching to find the patterns that lie outside the 'country' changes it was born from--those moving harmonies that come from old country and mountain singing.
But I know they're there; nothing country about 'Goodbye Pork Pie Hat.'
You all continue to inspire me to keep searching. Even as a beginner, I find I have more preconceived notions than I was aware of.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 18 Nov 2005 7:09 am

Maybe this topic is all about personal evolution and not steel evolution.

BINGO

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 18 Nov 2005 9:40 am

Charlie, you will DEFINITELY like Al Vescovo.

I really don't use the D# on E9 much,
and on C6 use it more for Minor/major7 passing chords a bit more than I should.
I do use the D and felt it was much more strummable and bluesy.

A LOT of the theory for YOUR set up is your type of musical logic.

b0b I do dig your practice grill up above.
@ this point I wish I could swap my changes between D and D# quick, but still lean towards the D.

Evolution is one cat trying something that fits his head,
and others checking it out after listeing and going. Oh COOL!
Eventually there is some sort of critical mass.

A rank beginner is best learning from a rel;atively stadarized copedent.
But others it's open season in search of the lost chord... as YOU need to get to it.

I got the 14 string so I could keep both the equivalent of D and G from C6 on top.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 18 November 2005 at 09:42 AM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 18 Nov 2005 11:00 am

The reasoning behind tuning the second string to D, in my case, was that the music I liked to play had more dominant 7th chords than major 7th chords. I was misdirected by looking at the open tuning instead of at the whole copedent.

There are three F lever positions in every key: I IV and V7. In those positions, you will almost always want the second string at D# if you need it for a melody note. It gives you the 9th tone of the current chord.

Now, maybe it's real easy for some people to automatically hit a D to D# lever when they hit the F lever. But in the standard tuning you don't have to do that. A+F is simpler than A+F+D, and it leaves one knee free.

In the end, I can't really say that the accomplished master players who tune the second string to D or C# are "wrong". I just feel an obligation to warn people, especially beginners like Charlie, of the ramifications of taking that road less traveled.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog