D-10 or Universal

Scott Henderson · From: Camdenton, Missouri, USA

Aside from a "maverick" when I was fifteen,
my first real guitar was a Dekley universal 12. I played it full time from 1982 to 1993.
In 1994 I went to a D-10 and didn't really feel any major strain in the convesion. I've seen double tener's look at my uni with a little bit of aprehension but I look at it this way. You just have to learn to adjust to what is on your lap, so to speak. they all have similarities and if you use them as a focal point you can always at least fake oyur way through something. LOL. In 1986 I wrote "Think B6th" a book strictly about the B6th tuning. (no E9/b6 combo) I also transcribed a c6th tuning book for Frenchy Messier called an easy guide to understanding C6th. I sometimes feel we were a little ahead of the times as universal's popularity was even less in the eighties.IMHO. There are teaching aids out there and if I can be of help to anyone don't hesitate to call on me.

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Steelin' away in the ozarks and life,
Scott
www.scottyhenderson.com

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Rather than argue the merits of which is better, a U12 or a D10, I would simply suggest that you stay with what is already familiar to you!

Richard Gonzales · From: Davidson, NC USA

Sherman-Let me give you my take on the subject and it is not musical. I am a beginner of a few years and started on a D10 because I did not know anything else existed until I read an article from Reece Anderson. The thing I had the most trouble with was physically adjusting my body going back and forth from either neck. Changing 20 strings instead of 12. The difference of weight was another factor. I have not found any Tab that could not be played on a Universal. I find concentration and consistentcy is easier for me with only 12 strings.
I have to give those D10 guys credit the way they can shift back and forth and not miss a beat!

David Doggett · Posted 29 Jun 2003 8:19 am

To sum up all the above, a universal looses about 10% of what you can get on 10-string E9 or C6 in exchange for an unknown percent of new stuff you can't get on a D10. I think the D10 players have done a better job (or at least more specific and detailed) of explaining what they would loose and why they don't want to than the uni players have done explaining what they gain musically (and I say this as a uni player).

In addition to the musical/theory stuff, a uni has the advantages of slightly less cost, more compact size, lighter weight, fewer strings to change, and the learning simplicity of one neck with everything related. Most of this stuff is irrelevant to a top level pro dedicated to his craft, but could tip the balance for some amateurs and semi-pros. In addition there are potentially more intonation problems with a uni, because of double the number of chords to get in tune. Again this might bother a top pro more.

I said above that the uni gains an "unknown" percent of new stuff because I don't think we really know this yet (at least I don't). Now I've got to give a listen to the players mentioned above (and maybe the new Jack West/David Phillips CD now featured on the Forum - is Phillips 14-string a uni or what?). Maybe it's this "unknown" factor that draws some of us to the challenge of a uni.

Franklin · Posted 29 Jun 2003 9:49 am

David,
I seriously considered switching to a universal in 70 and 71.

After a year or so of weighing things out on paper, I came to these conclusions.

The E9th and C6th tunings are completely non related on the D10 and are totally related because they are combined on the universal. THAT became the key issue for me.

1. On the D10 I can add more country E9th changes to all of my 9 floor pedals and nothing I do to the E9th neck other then a little harder pedal action will affect the C6th. Where would I add those same floor pedals to the E9th side of the universal without affecting the 6th stuff? After my studies I didn't see much room for variations on the Universal options.

2. Also, On the D10 I can easily alter the OPEN tuning itself such as put a C# between the E (4TH) and B (5TH) strings instead of having the low B string or add Eb between the E and D strings without any consequence to the C6th neck or vice versa. I couldn't do that to the universal without destroying the 6th side of the tuning.

I would only have to memorize skipping the C# on the E9th neck when I was going for the E and B licks and harmonies.

Adding a string in the middle of the universal would require alot more picking adjustments because both tunings are combined, therefor one tunings gain may negate the others.

It is the complication of this same issue, that is exactly why, there is no D string on the universal. Even though the E9th side of the tuning would be more complete with the D string. It is omitted because of the complex picking restructuring it causes within the 6th side of the tuning.

So, to utilize the most possibilities out of both tunings when they are combined into one universal tuning is an extremely delicate balancing act. The open tuning, its pedal changes along with their positions, required to make it work correctly are so fixed. This leaves little room to experiment with.

Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 29 June 2003 at 12:58 PM.]

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Given that very lucid explanation, Paul, I have to ask: Have you ever considered a D-11 or D-12? If so, why haven't you expanded in that direction?

P.S. I'm really enjoying your participation in these discussions.

------------------

Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

I too, very much appreciate Paul's comments and would like to hear more, especially regarding D-12's.

Speaking for myself, having playing D-12's for over 30 years, I have tried both a 12 and a 13 string Universal to try to eliminate some weight. No matter how I set them up, the Universals were always a compromise. I had to sacrifice changes and thus licks and chords that I had on my D-12 simply because there wasn't enough room in the changer or on the body to put the changes I am accustomed to. By the time I installed all the changes I could, the weight didn't decrease much at all, and the combinations were limited by having to hold a knee lever in to play in 6th mode.

One simple example is the the 6th string G# on E9 which corresponds to the 4th string A on C6. On E9, I raise it to A and lower it to G/F# with a half stop, and a split to give a G with the 2nd pedal. On C6, I raise it to B on the 4th and 7th pedals, and raise it to Bb and lower it to Ab on knee levers. The A-Bb corresponds to the 2nd pedal G#-A on E9, BUT if it's not on a lever on a Universal, you end up using both feet to combine it with other 6th pedals. To accomplish this on a Universal would require a changer with four raises and there is still the problem of where to physically put the knee lever change.

If you had a guitar with more than three raises, you could go to two sets of left knee levers, but that eliminates the ease of seamlessly changing playing modes.

My D-12's give me an extended E9 to simulate six string guitar licks, and let me have both the high G and D on C6, and I have yet to run out of raise or lower changer holes on either neck.

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Jim Smith jimsmith94@attbi.com
-=Dekley D-12 10&12=-
-=Fessenden D-12 9&9=-
-=Emmons D-12 push pull 9&4 (soon to be 9&9)=-
Stereo Steel rig w/Boss GX-700
IVL SteelRider w/JV-880

Franklin · Posted 29 Jun 2003 11:54 am

Bob and Jim,

Thanks, I am enjoying this. I hope no feelings get hurt along the way. I am only against playing a universal for my particular needs, not anyone elses. I have in the past and am once again considering a D12. I think I have the C6th neck figured out.

I should start another thread for that subject because my opinion about the future of the instrument will certainly bring about contraversy.

Jim,

I find it interesting that players like yourself see the roadblocks within single tunings. I am so frustrated with all the tunings including C6th and E9th which is why I will never limit my direction to one.

Paul

Edited the last paragraph for clarity.

[This message was edited by Franklin on 30 June 2003 at 05:53 AM.]

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Thanks sincerely Paul, for gracing this thread with your input. Because of your incredible achievments, ANY thing you say is taken with great weight I am sure.

I also feel b0b hit in on the head when he said,

"Actually, I find Reece's phrasing to be very different from most E9 and C6 players. He has a very "universal" approach to the instrument that never really sounds like E9 or C6, to my ears, anyway."

I find Maurice's playing to be among the most unique and original approaches to the PSG. He is indeed a master at the "U" concept. I feel certain he is never aware that it is two or more tunings. He simply uses the open tuning (and changes) to imbelish flawlessly his mastery of the 12 string.

To go along with Paul's thinking, I must agree with his analysis of the U-12. IF I had to rely on the standard U-12 copedent, I simply would not play it. There are just too many sacrifices (for me) coming from a D-10 background.

That is why, until I found a setup that would satisfy ALL of my wants, I didn't go to it.

It was not until I hit upon it one day, that I decided to make the switch. Praise Jesus I did, because it has brought me satisfaction the D-10 NEVER did. Or ever would IMO.

carl

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Yes!... Great Thread...
All valid comments.

I think we've lost touch of our reccomendation to Sherm, though.
With respect to the original post, it sounds like an S12U might be a valid reccomendation.

I'm thinking a Keyless, 7x4 Newman Setup, with B6th Change Lock.

Now can we start reccomending brands?!

[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 30 June 2003 at 09:59 AM.]

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

The universal has additional positions that can be integrated to create a more complete tuning. I have never advocated playing country in a jazz or swing tune, although I do throw in a jazz change here and there on country tunes 'cause it makes my guitar player laugh.

I find the A and B pedals to be useful in the 6th tuning context individually. The B pedal is the equivalent of the A to Bb knee lever on C6 and the A pedal raises the tonic to the 2nd/9th. Together they provide an additional 6th chord position 2 frets up from the home position for the 6th tuning (e.g., B6 on fret 2). I use this a lot for both single string and chord playing and miss it when I play 10-string C6. My friend Jim mentioned the B pedal not being as useful on a pedal in the B6 context, and that is true, but I primarily use it to raise the 6th to b7 out of open B or to suspend the 4th out of open E and those positions (E to D# and the C6/B6 P6 change) are on knee levers for me. I could use two feet and get all the combinations but have found other ways to get those chords (e.g., the b13 or aug5 with P5 or the b9 or dim with P Cool

. One difference between Jim's position and mine is that I've been playing a S-12 as long as he's been playing a D-12 and it's natural to want to stay with what you're used to. I tried my darndest to play a D-10 for almost a year and, like Jim, went back to what I know best. And, like Carl, I would not be very comfortable with the stock universal Jeff Newman teaches.

Another thing I like about having the tunings superimposed is that I can see relationships between C6 and E9 that I would never see on a double neck. For example, the F lever or A+F position is the same as that for what's usually on P5 of C6. In fact, you can substitute the F lever for the Eb lever raising the 2nd/9th to the 3rd for a chord variation, 9th chord going to pure Dom7 with the moving note in the middle.

There are more of these synergies than I have the time nor the inclination to write here. I don't have to justify anything. Either you can play or you can't. All 12 notes of the chromatic scale are on all the tunings. Everything is a compromise. I don't need any other player's blessing to play what I play. It's as simple as that. I like what I play and how I play it. I can cop from existing E9 and C6 literature or wing it on my own. I bought Paul's E9 and C6 speedpicking courses and was surprised that most of it was very similar melodically. I found that I could play some of the C6 passages more easily using the A and B pedals. There's more than one way to skin a cat and I guess I'm just gonna have to skin it my way. I always have.

Beam me up, Scotty.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 30 June 2003 at 09:47 AM.]

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Brands?

I kind of like the tone I get out of my Sho~Bud. Maybe if they made one...

(ducks....)

EJL

bob drawbaugh · From: scottsboro, al. usa

Paul, now that you know what a delicate balancing act the U12 is, stop coming up with these new pedal changes.

Remember this the next time you are in the studio and play something simple.It would make my life easier.

NOw you are talking about a D12, were will the mad ness stop.

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Here's a good summary of the tunings: http://www.jeffran.com/tuning/tuning.htm

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Now that's odd. On Jeff's U-12, he doesn't lower the second string to D. I never noticed that before.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

I'll wager that, at least on the guitars he plays shows with, he has a half-stop on that 'E' lever.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

b0bby,

I could have sworn Jeff was lowering the 2nd string to a D with his "E" knee lever. This apparently is something new. And Larry is probably correct. I would imagine there is a half stop on that lever.

carl

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

I'm guessing that's a Typo.
That "E" lever should go to "D" (along with string 9), as per listed in Jeffs B6 Universal Course (Book 1).

Edit: Then again, The "E" lever on his E9th chart is a Half Stop with tuning listed for both notes.

Note: The overlay of the tunings ala S12U presents no compromises when interpolated to/from D10.

No LKR.
No P4.

I think Jeff might be on to something here that will help alot of people "get up to speed" as they say.

[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 30 June 2003 at 08:51 PM.]

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

I believe a more recent copedent of Jeff's shows a LKR. Not sure what pulls? I'm using G#toF# on LKR on strings 6 and 10. And still limber enough to use it with the A pedal

The 2nd string: usually dropped to C# along with the Eb lever to add the 9th tone with the 6th tuning. I prefer it seperate. I tune it open to C# and raise it D/D# along with the B to D raise lever. There are alot of nice unison pulls with the Eb lever (4th string) and the A pedal (5th string). Much like the Franklin F# to G# pull, but from a different position. Or some 3 string harmony/unison switching on the 2nd, 4th and 5th strings. Gets complicated? Where's my crayons?
Dennis

bob drawbaugh · From: scottsboro, al. usa

Lever E on Jeff's tunning chart should be a D note and not C#. This is a typo. Look st Jeff's tunning chart on the Carter web site.

Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

David Doggett · Posted 1 Jul 2003 7:44 am

Wow, this has been the best D10-Uni discussion I've seen on the Forum. It is especially great to have Paul, as one of the top innovators today, sharing his thoughts. Of course he is absolutely correct that there is more flexibility for loading on extra pedals and knees and changing string tunings with a D10, where what one does on one neck does not affect the other, and where separate left knee clusters for the two necks have become the norm for heavy C6 users. Then if you begin to consider a D12, there is simply no comparison.

So for me it comes down to this - if you are going to chase the pros in commercial country and Western swing (not so commercial but there's still lots of it around), and every new riff they come up with, a D10 or D12 is clearly the way to keep up. And I don't mean for that to sound derogatory in any way. I love that stuff and the great guys who do it. They, and others like them who came before, invented the pedal steel and are its life-blood. They are my heroes and have my utmost admiration.

But here's me sitting in trying to play some backup in a typical group around here (not at all commercial). They want a golden oldies country number, then a Western swing number, then an old jazz standard or show tune, then some country rock, then some blues, then some rock, then back to country. Or I'm sitting at home listening to Coltrane, or Ornette Coleman, or Cecil Taylor, or just whatever jazz number from any era just came on the radio and I decide to sit down at my pedal steel and see what I can get with it (which I would NEVER do in public). Then after that I put on a Chicago blues album. Then I try some Web Pierce '50s classics. Then finally before going to bed I feel like seeing what I can do with some Bach or Mozart.

Just the initial decision on every song of which neck to go to on a D10 would drive me crazy. People who play other instruments don’t have to think about that. They just pick up their instrument and play whatever the song is. And with my limited abilities it is immensely helpful that all this stuff has some commonalities, especially if I'm always on the same one neck. I just have to push it in different directions, depending upon the style and era of the song. I have come to love it that the Universal is...unh... oh yeah, Universal.

Okay, so I can't load on quite as many pedals and knees, or change the string tunings. Paul is right, the Uni is a tight ship, and if you change one thing it effects everything. But I can live with that (and understand why he can't). Sure I could add another left knee cluster and a couple more pedals that I could reach if my left knee moved over to the middle. But to me that defeats the purpose of a Universal. You’re now playing two separate tunings, you might as well go all the way and have a whole C6 neck on a D10 or D12. A better solution may be to have 8 or 9 staggered knee levers like Larry Bell, and probably eventually I’ll try some of those.

But at some point some of us just have to say, “Okay, that’s enough for now.” I need to forget the extra stuff and stay focused on what I now have and learn what I can do with it all. Believe it or not, some guys don’t use any pedals or knees at all, and they play way better than me in any kind of music.

So I think I’m just a Universal kind of guy. I can get enough classic country and swing sounds for my noncommercial needs (regrettably this may change if Paul Franklin and others keep pushing the E9 envelope with new changes). And equally important, all the other stuff seems easier for me to find on a Uni. One singer I backup does a knock out version of My Funny Valentine. I’m grabbing a chord from E9 and another from B6 all the way through that thing. If I was on one neck or the other, I’d feel like I was playing with one hand tied behind by back. The Uni loves that kind of stuff.

A couple of final thoughts to throw out. People seem to usually think of a Uni as an E9 with B6 stuff added. But another way to see its possibilities is to think of it as a B6 which has the entire E9 available by working a single knee lever. Need a straight chord to resolve a fat B6 type chord? Just let go of the Eb lever and grab it from any of 10 different places on the E9 neck.

I would think a lot of non-peddlers used to 6th, 7th and 9th tunings could get comfortable very quickly with a Universal. With the Eb lever held, you can play it like a no-peddle 6th neck. If you press the B pedal it becomes a 7th neck. Let go all knees and pedals and it is a 9th neck. You can get tons of no-peddle stuff with just this one knee lever and one pedal.

Okay, to end this ramble (you may have begun to correctly suspect that I am a professional writer, and I write better than I play) - I completely agree with Paul Franklin and the other D10ers above that for their purposes the Uni has some serious road blocks. But for other purposes the Uni is a 12-lane expressway to tons of music in all genres, and some of us are loving it.

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