When Is It My Turn To Play?

[Dave Harmonson]

Clyde, without you there they would've nobody to play over.

[Curt Trisko]

I can usually tell when a guitar player has been playing most in 3 piece bands. They never stop playing.

I think this is probably it. If that kind of music is what you primarily listen to, it doesn't even occur to you how to intersperse other instruments. Some people just love that garage band sound and love creating it.

This is one of the things that makes me not eager to join a band. A small handful of people that have tried to talk me into playing with their bands or their friends' bands fall into this category. The people I've jammed with are good musicians with good ears, but most of them don't play in public. This is probably why.

[Doug Beaumier]

As others have said, it's a matter of style... some rockers think that All instruments should be blasting at the same time: guitars, keys, horns. That's what's supposed to happen, according to them. I remember one situation where I was determined to stake my ground, and when a chorus came around, I came in very strong and clear on the steel backing up on that chorus. Everyone in the band heard me, but instead of backing off, the sax and lead guitarist came in with me and played loudly right on top of me, smiling, happy, and thinking that's how it's supposed to be done. Thinking that they were somehow supporting with more fills, everyone blasting at the same time. It sounded like crap.

[Steve Spitz]

I'm currently avoiding a guy who keeps trying to book me. I played one time with his act, and that's why I'm avoiding it. I like the guy, but he's no bandleader. It's not about the money. I'd rather not take the money , and have to endure the gig. His "band" has no idea how to work as an ensemble. They seem like nice enough guys, and individually, they can all play , but none of the sidemen understand the concept. It's not worth being the "educator" , " mentor" , or "enforcer".

I think I'll decline this one, but if he continues to call I'll find a polite way to explain why I'm declining forever.

I'm not desperate for the moderate pay, and I'm not that desperate to play.

[Steve Spitz]

I'm currently avoiding a guy who keeps trying to book me. I played one time with his act, and that's why I'm avoiding it. I like the guy, but he's no bandleader. It's not about the money. I'd rather not take the money , and have to endure the gig. His "band" has no idea how to work as an ensemble. They seem like nice enough guys, and individually, they can all play , but none of the sidemen understand the concept. It's not worth being the "educator" , " mentor" , or "enforcer".

I think I'll decline this one, but if he continues to call I'll find a polite way to explain why I'm declining forever.

I'm not desperate for the moderate pay, and I'm not that desperate to play.

[Herb Steiner]

I was discussing a particular musician of this type with another steel player who's older than I and has put in time with major Western Swing bands in days gone by. This is a musician that works occasionally with me, and with the older player also . The senior steeler's opinion was that "he's a great player, but lacks discipline (italics mine)."

I think that's the situation with many of these fellows; they never had the voice of authority... i.e. bandleader... tell them how it's supposed to work, how they're supposed to work, and how they won't BE working if they don't figure it out.

My favorite fiddlers are often violinists who learned to play in school ensembles and know that when their part comes in a composition, they play; when someone else's turn comes up, they put the fiddle under their arms. The "folk" fiddlers are frequently clueless about it and stand ready at all times with fiddle under their chin, always wanting to be backing somebody up, somehow, everywhere in the song.

I speak with the knowledge that steel players often do the same, or worse. Most of the time nowadays, I spend with my hands in my lap or laying on the strings waiting for my signal to enter. Then clueless audience members walk up to the stage and make some kind of charade movements and facial scowling as if to suggest I should be playing.

End of rant, Herb temporarily out.

[Doug Beaumier]

"folk" fiddlers are frequently clueless about it

True, I've worked with a couple of fiddlers in the past who had played only bluegrass/folk. They sawed on the fiddle constantly... through the entire song. I couldn't tell if they were playing backup or soloing. I won't play with musicians like that anymore.

[George Kimery]

I have been playing with a fiddle player for almost 10 years now that plays melody, of some sort (clutter), all the time. He never ever puts his bow down. The only way I get to play is to play on top of him, so I do. He is on top of the singer, lead guitar, and steel 100% of the time. I tried for 9 years, in every way possible, to get him to listen to a record, go to a concert, watch TV, etc. I even gave him my Jeff Newman backing a singer DVD. He never understood any of it. He does not understand "Band Concept" at all and never will. When he feels a fiddle instrumental coming on, he just starts it without the singer or anybody telling him to do so. The whole band joins in and we finish up "his" song. I can't play one single intro or turnaround without him playing something on top of me. I can't end a song without him ending it also. And when the song ends, he adds an additional two notes all by himself, just to get the last word in. He is 80 plus years old and has been playing fiddle for 65 years. He has a studio at his home and teaches fiddle. He learned to play this way in a time when nobody knew any better and just about everybody played all the time. I asked him not to play when I come in with my fills and his response "Not playing is not going to happen in my world."

Here is his big plus: He can burn the fiddle up on all the old fiddle tunes. He has a great personality and the audience loves him and thinks he is the best fiddle player they have ever heard. The general public does not have a clue that he is anything other than great.

We have a great band, otherwise, and we stay booked. I like everybody in the band, including the fiddle player. I need the job and there is no band in my area that stays as busy as we do. So, I don't quit, although I want to. It has really been a challenge for me to continue for 10 years, having to play under these circumstances. I have decided to quit 3 times, but each time, it was right after a gig and I was mad. I decided to wait until I cooled down before making the decision. Each time, I decided to stay because we do a lot of shows that pay well and I just need the work.

I know I have only two choices: Tolerate it or quit, so I somehow manage to tolerate it, but it is really difficult to not say something. I am through talking to him. He just listens to the singer or other lead instrument and tries to play what they are doing. He just does not hear the overall band sound, only himself and trying to copy who ever is doing the melody at the time. As he learns new songs, he gets better at it and eventually, is playing pretty much the exact melody. He says he is not playing the melody, but is "playing around the melody". Anybody ever heard of that? It just sounds like a bunch of clutter to me.

[Lane Gray]

Too many fiddlers look to Tommy Jackson, who NEVER shut up. But Tommy WOULD reduce the volume and play whole notes.
At least Vassar and the Duncan boys know when NOT to play.

[Zeke Cory]

that - working with other lead instruments in a band is a completely separate ability or an art in itself. I find it very satisfying to find tasteful ways in and out of other lead players. It's very enjoyable to work with musicians who also know how to work with a steel in a group, as well as knowing when and when not to play.

[Eric Philippsen]

I sympathize with George. He's in a band with a fiddle player who plays well with the exception that he doesn't WANT to shut up. In short, it's all about him - the fiddler. Frustratingly, the audiences love the guy. He'll never change.

The bad thing, besides the constant playing, is that his band is booked a whole lot and, in an area where gigs and bands are less than common, that is a serious consideration.

I once was asked to sit in with a band where the guitar player never stopped playing. Never. Ever. CONSTANT playing. It was the first and last time I had ever done it, but on the 2nd break I packed up and left. Funny thing is I still don't regret doing that.

[Doug Beaumier]

I've always thought of 'backup playing' as a kind of improvisation. Some players have a natural intuition for it, and some don't. Good musicians never have to discuss who plays what when, who backs off where, who fills where. They use their EARS, their common sense and musical taste, and they work together, trading fills by intuition. Some players are unable to do that, and no amount of explaining will correct the problem.

[Joe Casey]

Guys,It's worse when the singer doesn't get a chance to sing the song.

[Richard Sinkler]

Guys,It's worse when the singer doesn't get a chance to sing the song.

Depends on how good or bad they are.

[Jim Cohen]

I always let them take a chorus in the middle and a couple of the turnarounds. Not too many of them really understand how to be a good sideman. I'm just sayin'...

[Barry Blackwood]

The general public does not have a clue that he is anything other than great.

No wonder - that's all they hear!

[Roger Kelly]

George, I think I know the fiddle player you are referring to.

I believe he played some with me and your brother Gary and Dennis Hicks and a guitar player and singer that I can't remember their names.

I remember the Fiddle player being just like you said, played all the time.

Like you, I tried to show him how to trade parts on the verses and chorus' and the turn around and how to end a song together...you know what I mean.

He was not interested in doing things that made everyone in the Band sound Professional. I made a few videos and audios of our practice sessions at Dennis's house and would play the videos/audios back so we could get some insight as to how we would sound and correct any mistakes we made.

Of the few times I could get him to lay back until it was the Fiddle's time to back up the singer he would come in and be Sour as the dickens. He just couldn't play a slow shuffle type country song.

As you said he is a hoedown solo fiddler. You will not change him.

Your options are to grin and bear it, try to find a new fiddler or quit

I don't know if you ever knew Bill Young from Morristown, Tn. but he is a very good Country Style Fiddler and may be interested in sitting in with you some time?

The times Bill and I played shows and recorded together was great.

Bill came by to see me last year while visiting his brother here in Georgia. We played some in my music room using some tracks of mine.

Bill was so easy to play with it felt like we had been playing together for ever, It has been at least 10 years since we last played together.

Playing with players who know how to play makes playing soooo easy!

Hope you find a good Country Fiddle Player.

Roger

[George Kimery]

This post is meant for Roger, so you other guys may or may not want to read it.

Roger, I had forgot about you playing with this fiddler when Dennis was putting a band together. I think your tenure was rather short. I don't know if you quit because of your move to GA or because of the fiddle player not giving you a chance to play, or for other reasons. Anyway, when you left, I took your job and have been there ever since. You were lucky that the fiddler didn't know the songs well like he does now. He really goes after the melody now, much more than when you were with him. My brother is still on bass. Due to the death's of Dennis Hicks and Johnny Kiser, we have a singer from Cherokee, NC and a drummer from Waynesville, NC. Most of our dates are in NC.

I actually did meet Bill Young one time. He had a small music store in Morristown. When I was there, Trent Ketner was there. I knew Trent for many years.Trent went with me to Emmons in NC in 1968 to buy my first steel, a black D-10. I know that he and Bill were pickin buddies. This goes back a LOT of years. Bill and Trent were not young men then. Trent died quite a few years ago and I wonder if Bill is still living. He must be close to 90 by now.

The fiddler is a blue grass fiddler and doesn't have the feel for country. His runs, licks, and endings have a bluegrass sound to them. He absolutely does not hear that he is clashing with the singer, lead guitar, and the steel. I have made him many CD's of our shows and he thinks everything sounds great. The more people playing and playing as much as they can just goes into his ears as a good thing. He thinks you are getting the maximum amount of music that the band can produce. Anybody that is not playing is just not helping the band maximize the band's sound. I forgot to mention, that he has been in the business a lot of years and has good contacts for getting us good paying gigs. The audience loves him, he gets us good gigs, and I like him personally. So I just keep hanging in there as best I can and try to not let it bother me to the point that I take his $400.00 fiddle bow and stick it where the sun doesn't shine.

[Rick Campbell]

By "folk fiddlers" I think you guys are referring to old time fiddlers. These were the old square dance bands, fiddler, open back banjo, wash board, etc.... It seemed standard practice that everyone played the lead at the same time. No decent bluegrass/country fiddler would play like that. Bluegrass often gets confused with old time music due to the instruments involved. Actually, bluegrass didn't exist until 1939 when Bill Monroe appeared on the Opry. He got the first encore in Opry history. His band wore white shirts and ties and not hillbilly attire. Bill did not want to be associated with that stereotype. I've played fiddle with some top bluegrass bands, Monroe, Del McCoury, Jimmy Martin, etc.... If I had played the melody on top of them, I would have been fired after the first show. A good fiddler understands when not to play. We're all guilty of getting excited and overplaying sometimes, but it should be an exception and not the norm. George K. - I sympathize with you. At age 80 I doubt the guy is going to change. He probably doesn't realize the big picture. To force the issue might be like Porter's "Trouble In The Amen Corner" with Brother Ira, all over again. Listen to someone like Bobby Flores, you won't hear any of this clutter. Keeping in mind that there has to be some overlap of licks and vocals to keep the music from being choppy. With fiddle, it's often okay to play harmony chords behind the singers or lead players, but it must be done properly and with good taste...... all supportive of the lead, not in competition with it. Buddy Spicher and Vassar come to mind. Also, The Pinnacle Boys with Randall Collins and Jerry Moore on twin fiddles, and later on Jerry and myself. Jerry taught me about that.

I've found that guitar players and steel players are equally guilty of overplaying. We can think that the audience doesn't know the difference, but I believe that is a yes and no. They don't dissect the parts of what they are hearing like us musicians do, but they listen to the overall sound. A band of hot lick pickers all playing at the same time is just a bunch of noise. Sometimes when I'm playing steel at a certain gig, the dancers stroll by right in front of me and more often than not, I'm just setting there waiting my turn to play. I've had them ask me why I'm not playing all the time??? I've tried to explain it, but it doesn't register. Lately, I just tell them it's because I'm lazy.

[George Kimery]

Rick, funny that you should mention Bobby Flores. The fiddler has satellite TV and get's RFD. I have pointed out the shows that have country music, and particularly, fiddlers. I steered him to Tru Country, with Bobby Flores and other great Texas fiddlers. But he says 11:30 PM is too late for him to stay up. I also steered him to the Penny Gilley show. They have a great girl fiddler that lays out most of the time. He thinks she is great, but doesn't understand why she holds back and doesn't play more. He watches the Presley show but the dots just don't connect in his brain as to the way the musicians take their turns playing and not playing.

The fiddler must know 100 hoedown instrumentals and plays them on pitch. But on fills, intro's, and turnarounds that he has not played for 65 years, it is a different story. Hit's a lot of flat notes.

OK, I am going to shut up now. It feels good to rant on and get it out of my system. I will have the pleasure of playing with him this Saturday for a private cookout for some millionaire. In an airplane hanger, where he keeps his corporate jet. Sounds like an acoustical nightmare, but at least we will eat well.

[Roger Kelly]

George, I knew of Dennis Hicks death but didn't know Johnny Kiser had passed away. I really liked them both.

George. I've asked myself many times if I want to play with a real tight group and not have enough gigs or play with a group that I get upset with, for the reason's we've already stated here? If you can have it both ways you got it made, in my opinion.

I'm glad to know you are playing well paid gigs.

Hang in there George, you're a very good player and something else may surface for you on down the road.

Rick..I have heard you play and know you know how it's supposed to be done.

Rick, to be able to play with Bill Monroe, Jimmy Martin and Del McCoury tells me all I would need to know, even if I had never ever heard you play.

All the best you both,
Roger

[Rick Campbell]

So I just keep hanging in there as best I can and try to not let it bother me to the point that I take his $400.00 fiddle bow and stick it where the sun doesn't shine.

George, remind to never even think about playing on top of you. Ouch!!!!!

Roger K. - thank you so much!


RC

[Richard Sinkler]

I'll keep this short and sweet.

Rick... In my opinion, Bluegrass is one of most disciplined genres of music.

[Jerry Hedge]

I've been doing a Thursday night gig with the same guitarist and bassist for around 18 years. (We're on our FOURTH DRUMMER!!!) Anyway the guitarist is a JOY to work with! He gets it.We occasionally have a couple of guitar players who sit in with us. They both have chops out the wazoo... and they're not afraid to show you. They both play constantly, never giving the steel a chance to play a fill or a break. After one night when one of them sat in, I walked over to our guitarist, and told him, I'll say one thing about his playing,NOTHING EXCEEDS LIKE EXCESS!!!

[David Cubbedge]

In one of the bands I play with, the excellent lead player and I just know that solos will usually be split and whomever takes the first half lays out for the other on the second. Works like a charm, although it must be said there are no other lead instruments in the band.

On the other hand, my solution to ride hogs is to use my Twin Reverb, and turn that mother up! That creates a new issue....