I Give Up

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 12 Jan 2011 10:16 am

Bill McCloskey wrote:Charles, I can't take you seriously when you condemn a genre...Because you really have to talk about individual artists, not genres of music.

I don't think that's necessarily true. People who hate bagpipe music (I am not one of them) hate the very sound of the bagpipes; it doesn't matter who the piper is. Personally, the sound of rhythmic poetic recitation (as Herb nicely defines "rap") grates on me the way the sound of bagpipes grates on those people; what the words are or the sound of the particular voice don't matter. So, while I imagine I could find something to like in some hip-hop music, I can say I hate rap as a genre.

But who, other than me, cares what I like or don't like?

And can't we get beyond the silliness of calling what you don't happen to like "not music"?

"Art is anything you can get away with."
--Marshall McLuhan

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 12 Jan 2011 10:29 am

Well there you go: A perfect example. As a former Uilleann pipe player I can tell you there are bag pipes and there are bag pipes.

If you listen to The Chieftains, you hear the magical lilting sounds of the Uilleann pipes, a bag pipe for sure, but much more beautiful than the Scottish bag pipes.

do you think people really hate this for instance, when they think of bagpipe music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rr4IQNn3AsA

that is a bagpipe and I think quite beautiful, certainly musical and a bagpipe. You might think you hate the bagpipe. But chances are, you just haven't heard enough.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 12 Jan 2011 10:45 am

Bill, I certainly hope you were using the editorial "you", not referring to me personally. I love the sound of bagpipes, including the Scottish bagpipes, more so the Uilleann pipes. I'm pretty sure some people don't like Uilleann pipes any better than Scottish bagpipes, however.

Another example: opera. Some people dislike the full-throttle, heavily-vibratoed approach to singing that pretty much defines the genre--yes, I'm sure it is possible to point to moments in operas or even whole operas that use quiet, delicate singing, but those are enough in the minority to be considered atypical.

Nothing is absolute, for me anyway. The verses to "Smoke, Smoke, Smoke That Cigarette" are rhythmic poetic recitation, and I don't hate that (or particularly like it).

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 12 Jan 2011 11:28 am

Editorial YOU Brint.

Listen: most people don't like music at all. Any kind of music. I venture to say that many people on this forum don't really like music: music represents a time and a place that they like to relive, but that is not the same as liking music for its own sake.

I know I'm not going to change people like Charles' mind. But I do believe it is important to challenge these knee jerk "I hate all "blank" music", if for no other reason than to provide an alternative voice.

Personally, I'm a jazz snob, but I've listened to everything and appreciated everything and if I find myself at a hip hop concert, I enjoy it for what it is. But my personal preferences are that jazz is the best music on the planet and everything that isn't jazz is vastly inferior to jazz. I would never say that all country is crap. I will say that country music holds no interest for me. But I've gone to country concerts (mostly to support people on this forum, which I like to do). But would I rather be at the Village Vanguard listening to Wayne Shorter. To quote Charles "You betcha"

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 12 Jan 2011 11:50 am

Bill McCloskey wrote:But I do believe it is important to challenge these knee jerk "I hate all "blank" music", if for no other reason than to provide an alternative voice.

I agree.

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 12 Jan 2011 12:10 pm

Isn't "I've been Everywhere, man" rap? talk about rhythmic recitation set to a simple beat.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 12 Jan 2011 12:23 pm

Haven't heard it in a while, but "I've Been Everywhere" could be said to have a melody, though that melody in the verses is, to say the least, very simple, but adheres to definite pitches, so it's not quite spoken recitation!
(I'm just quibbling for fun here!

)

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 12 Jan 2011 12:54 pm

so it's not quite spoken recitation

Of course either is rap. It also adheres to pitches certainly comparable to "I've been everywhere. ", but of course, hip hop has a lot more soul.

Jerry Hayes R.I.P. · Post by **Jerry Hayes R.I.P.** » 12 Jan 2011 1:21 pm

Well we're into the third page of this thread and there's a lot of repetative things going on from previous threads on this subject so I'll just give my take on it.......

"Today's Country Music".... I like it and I'm almost 71 years old. There are some gems out there and you don't even have to look to far to find 'em. Some of the tunes I like......

Miranda Lambert's....The House That Built Me
Brad Paisly........American Saturday Night
Trace Adkins......You're Gonna Miss This
Carrie Underwood....I Told You So
Blake Shelton.......Some Beach, Somewhere

There's a bunch of others but that's a few that I really like..... I think you hear quite a bit of steel guitar on today's country music and that's proven by the fact of how many sessions Paul F. and others do.....

Alan Jackson's a veteran now but he's still considered one of the "new" artists as his music's current as well as George Strait.

As much as he's hated around here, Kenny Chesney's got quite a few gems on his CD's and some of his singles. I remember when he was just getting going we had him in So.east Virginia as the opening act at an Alabama concert and he did one helluva job. He sang almost classic country the whole set!

Remember, country music like other venues continues to evolve and always will. Thirty years from now, what we're calling "new country" will be considered classic and it'll keep on going like that.

I think I'll go right out and join the Garth Brooks Fan Club simply 'cause he's got more steel on his records that just about anyone you can name.....JH in Va.

Joe Drivdahl · Post by **Joe Drivdahl** » 12 Jan 2011 4:26 pm

Herb: No. As you said, it doesn't matter, but as Bill said, we want to discuss it anyway. I guess in the broadest sense possible, rap can be considered music; although, most has only one component of music: a beat. No melody, certainly no harmony, and no chord structure. But whatever... I don't like it and never will.

Bill: I totally agree. With today's country music, pretty much when you've heard one, you've heard 'em all. Everyone is copying everyone and using the same musicians in the studio, which probably adds to the "sameness."

Theresa: You live in a place where you have access to many, many kinds of music. I don't. I mean, not to live music. I do have access to music. I can download stuff from the Internet and purchase older albums at Walmart, but as far as what's on the radio goes, its either Contemporary Country, Vintage Rock (on AM which kind of ruins it), or NPBR.

But it is what it is. Since I have taken up writing, I am not as interested in music as I was.

Joe

www.4thstbooks.com

Joe Drivdahl · Post by **Joe Drivdahl** » 12 Jan 2011 4:44 pm

People who hate bagpipe music (I am not one of them) hate the very sound of the bagpipes; it doesn't matter who the piper is.

I agree. For me its the harmonica. I don't care who is playing it, Charlie McCoy or Willie Nelson's Harmonica player. I hate the sound of it. Everytime someone takes a lead break on a harmonica I think to myself, "What a waste. That lead could have been played on the steel (pedal or non-pedal), Dobro, guitar, fiddle, twin fiddles, saxophone (or two), trumpet (or two), trombone, piano, mandolin, banjo (4 or 5 string), accordion, pipe organ, flute, recorder, Unukalhai, or even a bagpipe, but no... instead they wasted it on a damn harmonica."

Another one I don't care for is the politically incorrect "Jews Harp". Is that thing even an instrument?

Joe

Mitch Ellis · Post by **Mitch Ellis** » 12 Jan 2011 6:13 pm

"Jews Harp". I've never seen those words in writing until now. All these years, I thought everyone was saying "Juice Harp".

Ya' learn something new every day!

Mitch

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 12 Jan 2011 6:43 pm

Joe Drivdahl wrote: Another one I don't care for is the politically incorrect "Jews Harp". Is that thing even an instrument?

Oh yes indeed it is. But as with so many "primitive" instruments it needs to be heard live to fully appreciate the sound,- it sounds huge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxOapWidM1M

And it goes by many names,- "Jews Harp", "Jaws Harp", "Mouth Harp", "Trump"......

Dr. Hugh Jeffreys · Post by **Dr. Hugh Jeffreys** » 12 Jan 2011 6:58 pm

Marshall Hall is an amazing CLASSICAL type steel guitarist. The last time I heard from him he was in Florida.

Ron Anderson · Post by **Ron Anderson** » 12 Jan 2011 7:02 pm

Well,

I for one really like contemporary country.
I came out of rock n' roll when the grunge rock started and the talent on guitar stopped. I looked around and found country sounding very much like melodic rock and the players and recording production exceeded what I had been into.

Jo Dee Messina is a fav of mine and I really like the steel work. Probably what drew me to the instrument most. That and needing steel to make my country I was writing more country.

That slow weepy stuff isn't my deal. I'm just too sober and happy I guess.

To each one's own though.

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 12 Jan 2011 8:08 pm

One of the classic masters of thew jews harp was radio personality Jean Shepard, the guy who wrote and narrated the movie A Christmas Story. Used to love hearing him play that as a kid listening to him on the radio. I started playing it around that time. Got to watch out: you can take out a front tooth on that thing.

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 12 Jan 2011 8:19 pm

I can find something of value in all kinds of music. There are certainly artists who I don't care for, but I like to listen to sounds: I like to hear how instruments play off of each other, or how vocalists or rappers phrase things, etc. There's a side of me that listens to music for pure enjoyment and then there's the side which listens as a musician/student of music. I can't condemn any genre of music.

Joe Drivdahl · Post by **Joe Drivdahl** » 12 Jan 2011 8:20 pm

That slow weepy stuff isn't my deal. I'm just too sober and happy I guess.

I have heard that complaint about country forever. "I don't like the slow, whiny country." Then you don't like country because that IS country. The "whine" came from the steel guitar.

This stuff today is not country at all. The reason you like it is because it resembles rock and roll, but it definitely ain't country. Its misnamed actually. They say rock and roll is dead but it isn't. Its country thats dead.

Joe

Jim Palenscar · Post by **Jim Palenscar** » 12 Jan 2011 10:30 pm

I have to this day never heard a rap song that moved me anywhere but away~ just my own humble opinion.

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 12 Jan 2011 11:43 pm

Joe Drivdahl wrote:

"I don't like the slow, whiny country." Then you don't like country because that IS country. The "whine" came from the steel guitar.

Joe
Joe,

Country music was popular before artists used the whine of a steel guitar.

Paul

Joe Drivdahl · Post by **Joe Drivdahl** » 13 Jan 2011 5:16 am

Paul,
True. Like Jimmy Rogers and Gene Autry. But did people complain about the whining country sound back then? Maybe. I don't know. It was Country-Western then, right?

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 13 Jan 2011 5:40 am

Country, as far as I can see, has always been an amalgam of styles, incorporating blues, scottish and Irish ballads from the Appalachians, a touch of jazz, a touch of back beat. Where people complaining when Jimmy Rogers incorporated blues into his work? Probably. Jimmy Rogers even recorded with Louis Armstrong.

These threads always sound a bit odd to an outsider in the realm of country music, because to my ears, it all sounds like country. Today's country certainly doesn't sound like rock and roll, certainly not modern rock and roll. The rolling stones made rock and roll sound country and there certainly is a country rock hybrid. But today's Country? I really don't hear any difference: same themes, some twang.

Joe Drivdahl · Post by **Joe Drivdahl** » 13 Jan 2011 6:10 am

Bill,
I'm probably getting in over my head here (I'll do that) but wasn't Jimmie Rogers' entire early style based on the blues? Most of the songs of his that I've heard seem like they were: "Way out on the Mountain", "TB Blues", etc. But then songs like "Miss the Mississippi" were not so bluesy, but I thought they came later in his career. I could be wrong about that, however.

And then didn't Gene Autry try to copy Jimmie's style? I am certainly not an old-time country-western music scholar, so I don't know for certain, but I do believe that country and rock and roll were born in the same place, right? I mean, early rock and roll sounds to me like they took Jimmie Rogers songs and put a rock beat to them... Same blues chord progressions, different beat. I may be over simplifying it.

Joe

Jerry Hayes R.I.P. · Post by **Jerry Hayes R.I.P.** » 13 Jan 2011 7:02 am

Joe, as I said before.... country music evolves just like any other genre of music! I'll bet when Ray Price came out with his "country shuffle" sound and beat that a lot of the old Roy Acuff style fans said that it wasn't country music. And when Ernest Tubb used that "electric guitar" there were the die hards who were against that sound. I worked in a Western Swing band once with a standup steel player named J.L. Jenkins who had been with Johnny Lee Wills group and others in the past. I asked him once if he'd ever played pedal steel to which he replied "To me, pedal steel ain't TRUE STEEL!".....

Personally being both a player and a fan I can assure you that the level of musicianship among todays players is higher than it's ever been IMHO. I remember when I first started playing pro in the early sixties, very rarely did a lick come out on a record which I felt I couldn't cop or at least a reasonable facimile of. I can't say that today. People of the "A Team" such as Paul F. and Brent Mason are doing some downright impossible things on their respective instruments and I love it.

Like some said, if you don't like it, don't listen to it but you'll be missing a lot of good stuff.....Once again JMHO.....JH in Va.

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 13 Jan 2011 7:07 am

Joe,

I never heard a blues artist yodel.