Sorry guys I didn't know there was a height issue with some pickups & the Emmons III. I had no trouble with the TrueTone --just dumb luck, I guess!
-GV
Re: Emmons Counterforce Units
Moderator: Dave Mudgett
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Dave Robbins
- Posts: 803
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- Location: Cottontown, Tnn. USA (deceased)
Greg
The Truetones should be about the same height as the typical stock Emmons single coil pickup. No magic here.
The problem typically comes when trying to install some of the taller pickups like the Lawrence, etc.
Since the pickup height is preset at the factory when the guitar is built, the heigths typically are set for the stock Emmons single coil or the 108 humbucker type pickups.
When I originally ordered my LeGrande III, I special ordered it with E-66 pickups, which required more room. So the pickup height was preset when it was built at the factory for the taller E-66. This however, worked out for allowing me to try other pickups later as well. Had it been built around the factory single coil, there would not have been enough room to try other pickups. At least not without taking the guitar apart to mill the counter force block.
Not much difference in size or basic sound between the stock Emmons pickup and the Truetone, both being single coils. As a matter of fact, I don't see much advantage at all in switching a stock Emmons single coil out for a Truetone. No offence to the Truetone, they're a fine pickup, I just don't see any advantage to doing so.
Dave
The Truetones should be about the same height as the typical stock Emmons single coil pickup. No magic here.
The problem typically comes when trying to install some of the taller pickups like the Lawrence, etc.
Since the pickup height is preset at the factory when the guitar is built, the heigths typically are set for the stock Emmons single coil or the 108 humbucker type pickups.
When I originally ordered my LeGrande III, I special ordered it with E-66 pickups, which required more room. So the pickup height was preset when it was built at the factory for the taller E-66. This however, worked out for allowing me to try other pickups later as well. Had it been built around the factory single coil, there would not have been enough room to try other pickups. At least not without taking the guitar apart to mill the counter force block.
Not much difference in size or basic sound between the stock Emmons pickup and the Truetone, both being single coils. As a matter of fact, I don't see much advantage at all in switching a stock Emmons single coil out for a Truetone. No offence to the Truetone, they're a fine pickup, I just don't see any advantage to doing so.
Dave
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Mike Cass
Dave Doggett;
while Im no expert, I have never really been bothered by minimal cabinet raise. If its there in your guitar I would think it would be minute thanks to the counterforce(if you will)of the return springs combined with the actual tuning(s)currently on the guitar in question. At most I would think that the B's might rise just a hair when lowering the E's. Ive noticed this on p/p guitars from time to time, and with them being more stout than most a/p guitars Id guess that the a/p might be more susceptible to raise as well as drop. But its just a guess.
Cabinet raise I can deal with, cabinet drop just spoils my day
while Im no expert, I have never really been bothered by minimal cabinet raise. If its there in your guitar I would think it would be minute thanks to the counterforce(if you will)of the return springs combined with the actual tuning(s)currently on the guitar in question. At most I would think that the B's might rise just a hair when lowering the E's. Ive noticed this on p/p guitars from time to time, and with them being more stout than most a/p guitars Id guess that the a/p might be more susceptible to raise as well as drop. But its just a guess.
Cabinet raise I can deal with, cabinet drop just spoils my day
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robert kramer
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It seems to me an Emmons LeGrande III with the counterforce and with the return compensators (compensators that return the lowers back to pitch) would be the ideal guitar for the beginning steel player or for players, like me, whose technique is not all that good. With these guitars you can eliminate the basic tuning problems (cabinet drop & lowers not returning to pitch) and concentrate on learning to play.
When I play back the things I’ve done on the III, as opposed to on a push-pull guitar, I can at least hear myself approaching something like being in tune. Also, I can look for more altered chord sounds because they will sound more in tune.
Long time pro steel players can make anything sound good. They’ve had the years, the talent and the dues to work around all the tuning problems inherent the pedal steel guitar. For the beginning player and for me, the LeGrande III eliminates some of these problems. Plus, you still have the Emmons sound. A good, full, musical tone can cover up a lot of tuning problems.
When I play back the things I’ve done on the III, as opposed to on a push-pull guitar, I can at least hear myself approaching something like being in tune. Also, I can look for more altered chord sounds because they will sound more in tune.
Long time pro steel players can make anything sound good. They’ve had the years, the talent and the dues to work around all the tuning problems inherent the pedal steel guitar. For the beginning player and for me, the LeGrande III eliminates some of these problems. Plus, you still have the Emmons sound. A good, full, musical tone can cover up a lot of tuning problems.
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chris ivey
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David Doggett
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Dave Robbins
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David
As I said in my earlier post, the cabinet raise issue can be addressed with the L-III's counter force (CF). It's just a simple matter of the "CF's" system working in reverse. The guitar has to be set up and adjusted for it. The counter force can work just as well one direction as another. The guitar has to have the specific hardware in place and adjusted for it to work. Most counter force units are set up to address the cab' raise only, as that seems to be the thing that bothers most people the most.
I'm like Mike Cass in that cabinet raise has never really been a big issue for me. It is there in my own L-III but not so significant as to mess me up. It's very slight. The major downer is cabinet drop. Plus, I tune 440 as well, so that also helps. The L-III is the perfect candidate for 440 tuning, which was something I could never quite get close enough with on my old push/pull.
My guitar also has the return compensators, which I absolutely love having! It's really great not having to bump my E lowers to get the guitar back in tune after using the LKL. I was always having to do that with my push/pull and just became a habit. When I got the L-III with the return comp's, I no longer had to worry about the tuning returning incorrect.
If you don't have return compensators on your L-III, have them installed. It really makes a difference.
Counter force (CF) has nothing to do with lowers returning correctly...that's not what it's for, it is not a "compensator" as I have heard some people refer to it as. It is strictly a system for correcting cabinet drop without having to roll the bar to play in tune.
You need to have a good understanding of what the intended purpose of the "CF" is before trying to adjust it. It doesn't take nearly as much adjustment as some people think. As a matter of fact, if set up right, it takes very little "CF" adjustment. If set up right and adjusted correctly, you can not feel it working as some people claim. If you can feel it, then it is set up and adjusted "wrong," no matter when, where, or who you bought it from!
Dave
As I said in my earlier post, the cabinet raise issue can be addressed with the L-III's counter force (CF). It's just a simple matter of the "CF's" system working in reverse. The guitar has to be set up and adjusted for it. The counter force can work just as well one direction as another. The guitar has to have the specific hardware in place and adjusted for it to work. Most counter force units are set up to address the cab' raise only, as that seems to be the thing that bothers most people the most.
I'm like Mike Cass in that cabinet raise has never really been a big issue for me. It is there in my own L-III but not so significant as to mess me up. It's very slight. The major downer is cabinet drop. Plus, I tune 440 as well, so that also helps. The L-III is the perfect candidate for 440 tuning, which was something I could never quite get close enough with on my old push/pull.
My guitar also has the return compensators, which I absolutely love having! It's really great not having to bump my E lowers to get the guitar back in tune after using the LKL. I was always having to do that with my push/pull and just became a habit. When I got the L-III with the return comp's, I no longer had to worry about the tuning returning incorrect.
If you don't have return compensators on your L-III, have them installed. It really makes a difference.
Counter force (CF) has nothing to do with lowers returning correctly...that's not what it's for, it is not a "compensator" as I have heard some people refer to it as. It is strictly a system for correcting cabinet drop without having to roll the bar to play in tune.
You need to have a good understanding of what the intended purpose of the "CF" is before trying to adjust it. It doesn't take nearly as much adjustment as some people think. As a matter of fact, if set up right, it takes very little "CF" adjustment. If set up right and adjusted correctly, you can not feel it working as some people claim. If you can feel it, then it is set up and adjusted "wrong," no matter when, where, or who you bought it from!
Dave
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Paul Redmond
- Posts: 1167
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Having to add a 'crowbar' to the changer of any guitar is simply an admission that it has a serious 'drop' problem. I never could understand why anyone would want to admit that their guitar drops so badly that they need a 'pry-bar' to jam it back into place. If you need this arrangement built into a guitar, there are obviously other issues that really need to be addressed by the builder.
PRR
PRR
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Mike Cass
Its easy to indict products/builders, but much harder to understand and possibly improve upon their ideas, the latter being the point of this thread up till now.....
Id guess that most LEGITIMATE builders have torn their hair out trying to solve the detune problem inheirent in ALL guitars,including theirs.
To carelessly insinuate that any builder would build a guitar with a less-than acceptable ammount of cabinet drop and then try to "pry" it back into tune is just plain ignorant and self-serving,imo. Sounds like the old "I could solve it but I'll let 'em suffer" syndrome. That mind-set allows the individual to falsely percieve his intellectual superiority over others without having to come up with a better solution. Unless youve built a guitar with zero detuning and the "Emmons tone", please allow us to continue our formely good-willed discussion.
We get it; you build guitars, you know more than us etc,etc. It sounds like a great recipie for the solution to cabinet drop. Now go get on it, Paul and let us know when youve finished it. But dont forget to make it sound like an Emmons now....
Until then, please feel free to contribute any positive comments or tips to our discussion. Soultions are always welcome, agendas are not.
Id guess that most LEGITIMATE builders have torn their hair out trying to solve the detune problem inheirent in ALL guitars,including theirs.
To carelessly insinuate that any builder would build a guitar with a less-than acceptable ammount of cabinet drop and then try to "pry" it back into tune is just plain ignorant and self-serving,imo. Sounds like the old "I could solve it but I'll let 'em suffer" syndrome. That mind-set allows the individual to falsely percieve his intellectual superiority over others without having to come up with a better solution. Unless youve built a guitar with zero detuning and the "Emmons tone", please allow us to continue our formely good-willed discussion.
We get it; you build guitars, you know more than us etc,etc. It sounds like a great recipie for the solution to cabinet drop. Now go get on it, Paul and let us know when youve finished it. But dont forget to make it sound like an Emmons now....
Until then, please feel free to contribute any positive comments or tips to our discussion. Soultions are always welcome, agendas are not.
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Nick Reed
- Posts: 4771
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- Location: Russellville, KY USA
For Dave Robbins:
Dave, I have a LeGrande III and have never adjusted anything on the counterforce since I ordered it brandnew from the factory in '99. I suppose it's working properly, I've never noticed anything out of the ordinary. But for peace of mind I'd like you to check it over for me. Please e-mail me your phone # and lets talk about it.
Thanks, Nick
Dave, I have a LeGrande III and have never adjusted anything on the counterforce since I ordered it brandnew from the factory in '99. I suppose it's working properly, I've never noticed anything out of the ordinary. But for peace of mind I'd like you to check it over for me. Please e-mail me your phone # and lets talk about it.
Thanks, Nick
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Dave Robbins
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- Location: Cottontown, Tnn. USA (deceased)
Nick
You have mail.
Back on the CF topic...
I just don't understand why people get so worked up over the Emmons counter force (CF). Maybe they're just jealous that they didn't come up with the idea for their guitar first.
My L-III does not have serious cabinet drop...certainly no worse than any other brand guitar, and certainly not worse than the many brands I have personally checked that claimed didn't have any at all.
Simply "claiming" that a guitar does not have cabinet drop is fooling no one but themselves. As I stated before, some guitars are worse than others. That apllies to "all brands, all models."
I have watched people check their guitars for cabinet drop and say "see, no cabinet drop!", only for me to then check the same guitar right after them and fine that it is indeed there.
One thing you have to remember is that cabinet drop doesn't seem to appear "until you step all the way down on the pedal!" Anybody's guitar can look like there is no cabinet drop by simply "lightly stepping on the pedal or not stepping all the way down until it hits the pedal stop.
It is absolutely amazing how many people the Emmons counter force mechanism "fires up." If you don't see a need for counter force, or if you don't hear cabinet drop, don't like Emmons guitars, or any other reason for feeling the need to bad mouth the Emmons, why not just don't respond to the whole subject???? Why not just overlook the subject and pass off the whole thing as stupid and go your merry way...continue trying to convince evryone else how superior your favorite brand is???
I just don't get why people feel it is so important to bad mouth the Emmons guitar every opportunity they get!
As I said, my L-III is no worse than any other brand of guitar for cabinet drop. "Still"...I like the counter force and what it does. It just flat makes it easier to play in tune whether anybody appreciates it or not. Period.
I don't think it is about poor construction, poor design, or whose running the company now days and whether it will survive or not, or anything else. It is just simply about being jealous of the Emmons guitar/name. Doesn't really matter whether it is a LeGrande or a push/pull, there are always those who will go to great ends to bad mouth the Emmons, any model, any chance they get.
If you like some other brand, or make your own brand, fine. Get on with it and quit trying to verbally assault the Emmons.
If the Emmons is not for you...fine play what you want. Stop reading this topic and go read another one. I doubt serious those of us who appreciate the merits of an Emmons guitar will miss you.
For me, I would rather have that "Emmons sound" and "CF," rather than not. Just my opinion...and I'm just as entitled to my opinion as any one else is theirs.
Besides, this topic "is" about the Emmons Counter force.
Dave
You have mail.
Back on the CF topic...
I just don't understand why people get so worked up over the Emmons counter force (CF). Maybe they're just jealous that they didn't come up with the idea for their guitar first.
My L-III does not have serious cabinet drop...certainly no worse than any other brand guitar, and certainly not worse than the many brands I have personally checked that claimed didn't have any at all.
Simply "claiming" that a guitar does not have cabinet drop is fooling no one but themselves. As I stated before, some guitars are worse than others. That apllies to "all brands, all models."
I have watched people check their guitars for cabinet drop and say "see, no cabinet drop!", only for me to then check the same guitar right after them and fine that it is indeed there.
One thing you have to remember is that cabinet drop doesn't seem to appear "until you step all the way down on the pedal!" Anybody's guitar can look like there is no cabinet drop by simply "lightly stepping on the pedal or not stepping all the way down until it hits the pedal stop.
It is absolutely amazing how many people the Emmons counter force mechanism "fires up." If you don't see a need for counter force, or if you don't hear cabinet drop, don't like Emmons guitars, or any other reason for feeling the need to bad mouth the Emmons, why not just don't respond to the whole subject???? Why not just overlook the subject and pass off the whole thing as stupid and go your merry way...continue trying to convince evryone else how superior your favorite brand is???
I just don't get why people feel it is so important to bad mouth the Emmons guitar every opportunity they get!
As I said, my L-III is no worse than any other brand of guitar for cabinet drop. "Still"...I like the counter force and what it does. It just flat makes it easier to play in tune whether anybody appreciates it or not. Period.
I don't think it is about poor construction, poor design, or whose running the company now days and whether it will survive or not, or anything else. It is just simply about being jealous of the Emmons guitar/name. Doesn't really matter whether it is a LeGrande or a push/pull, there are always those who will go to great ends to bad mouth the Emmons, any model, any chance they get.
If you like some other brand, or make your own brand, fine. Get on with it and quit trying to verbally assault the Emmons.
If the Emmons is not for you...fine play what you want. Stop reading this topic and go read another one. I doubt serious those of us who appreciate the merits of an Emmons guitar will miss you.
For me, I would rather have that "Emmons sound" and "CF," rather than not. Just my opinion...and I'm just as entitled to my opinion as any one else is theirs.
Besides, this topic "is" about the Emmons Counter force.
Dave
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Paul Redmond
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FWIW I was not assaulting the Emmons guitar. Quite the contrary, I have always had a soft spot in my heart for the entire Emmons line even though I never owned one. If the cabinets didn't ever drop on an Emmons, there would not have been a need to add a prybar. The late Charlie Ward is a person who was confounded by the addition of this system to the guitars. In his later years, Charlie probably 'tweaked' more Emmons than Heinz has got pickles. Charlie knew Emmons guitars...especially push/pulls...better than anyone on earth. When Charlie critiqued a guitar in my presence, I listened.
Also FWIW my Whitney guitars exhibit zero drop. On a bad day, I've been able to find a half cent on the 4th string. My guitars also exhibit 0.0 cents hysteresis and have since 1984. They were DESIGNED to do that without a prybar. Over the years I have challenged anyone to build a steel with the inherent mechanical accuracy of the Whitney. So far the only guy to come close is Ed Packard.
I don't aim criticism at other builders for any shortcomings I may discover on their products. As 99% of my steel work consists of problem-solving, I am always seeking a better way of doing things without costing the customer a fortune. Most finished results end up being a compromise, but nonetheless an improvement over what came in the front door. You must have, at least at one time, thought enough of my abilities to contact me when I lived in Cortland IL to build a pedal Dobro. I always took that as a compliment.
Charlie Ward removed many a prybar setup from Emmons guitars at their owners' request as, according to Charlie, they didn't like double-bump feel to the pedals and knee levers. To each his own I guess. They also liked the reduction in weight, again, according to Charlie Ward. While living in NC and doing most of his machine work at the time, I was the one who actually put dial indicators on keyheads and discovered that the cabinet drop that was plaguing his customers wasn't drop at all, but that the keyheads were 'skating' on the body. By merely adding two #8-32 screws to each keyhead, we were able to eliminate 60% of the so-called drop which wasn't even drop at all.
I don't hold myself out to have all the answers to all of the problems that plague the steel guitar. But I have routed out a lot of gremlins over the years as any of my customers would attest.
PRR
Also FWIW my Whitney guitars exhibit zero drop. On a bad day, I've been able to find a half cent on the 4th string. My guitars also exhibit 0.0 cents hysteresis and have since 1984. They were DESIGNED to do that without a prybar. Over the years I have challenged anyone to build a steel with the inherent mechanical accuracy of the Whitney. So far the only guy to come close is Ed Packard.
I don't aim criticism at other builders for any shortcomings I may discover on their products. As 99% of my steel work consists of problem-solving, I am always seeking a better way of doing things without costing the customer a fortune. Most finished results end up being a compromise, but nonetheless an improvement over what came in the front door. You must have, at least at one time, thought enough of my abilities to contact me when I lived in Cortland IL to build a pedal Dobro. I always took that as a compliment.
Charlie Ward removed many a prybar setup from Emmons guitars at their owners' request as, according to Charlie, they didn't like double-bump feel to the pedals and knee levers. To each his own I guess. They also liked the reduction in weight, again, according to Charlie Ward. While living in NC and doing most of his machine work at the time, I was the one who actually put dial indicators on keyheads and discovered that the cabinet drop that was plaguing his customers wasn't drop at all, but that the keyheads were 'skating' on the body. By merely adding two #8-32 screws to each keyhead, we were able to eliminate 60% of the so-called drop which wasn't even drop at all.
I don't hold myself out to have all the answers to all of the problems that plague the steel guitar. But I have routed out a lot of gremlins over the years as any of my customers would attest.
PRR
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Dave Robbins
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- Location: Cottontown, Tnn. USA (deceased)
Paul,You must have, at least at one time, thought enough of my abilities to contact me when I lived in Cortland IL to build a pedal Dobro. I always took that as a compliment.
First off...
I have never contacted you about building a pedal dobro, nor have I ever wanted a pedal dobro. I have a wonderful 1928 real Dobro that I prefer.
Secondly...
Exactly what I was talking about when I referred to those who don't know what they are doing to leave them alone! Had he known anything about it, he would have known that all that was needed was a very simple ratio change and minor adjustment and it would have fixed it.Charlie Ward removed many a prybar setup from Emmons guitars at their owners' request as, according to Charlie, they didn't like double-bump feel to the pedals and knee levers.
I didn't know a few ounces could be so heavey!They also liked the reduction in weight,
The late Charlie Ward, while being a very nice man, didn't know "squat" about an Emmons guitar, nor any other brand of guitar. I have re-paired my share of Charlie Ward "butchered" guitars. Although, I must admire his ability to apply "barnyard" parts to a musical instrument.
I'm afraid, Paul, you have more than proved "my" point in my above postings.
You are typical of the self serving types that I was referring to who try to steal the topic about another brand of guitar and turn it into a commercial for your own guitar.
Bottom line...it still don't sound like an Emmons!
This is why I prefer not to respond to topics on the forum and will probably not respond to this topic or any other topic any more. Instead of a discussion on the merits of the particular brand in subject, it has to turn into a bashing by some other manufacturer in hopes of them trying to convince somebody of how superior their brand is over the subject brand (Emmons). It just turns into a self serving commercial. Just how many Redmond guitars have been sold compared to the Emmons, Paul? Or even "recorded" for that matter!
I'll even go an extra step and give you the benefit of a doubt. "Maybe" your guitar is a good guitar, but I hardly think this was the place to advertise it! Did you think you were going to convince the many Emmons owners who replied to this topic to get rid of their Emmons and go buy yours? I hardly think so.
I'm tired of this topic, this forum, and self serving people who tend to use it for "self promotion" or promotion of their favorite product over someone else's.
My opologies to those whose interest in the original beginnings of this topic was about the Emmons counter force. As I stated early on, I regret ever even posting to this topic. I knew better!
Once again, as I posted earlier, if you have an Emmons guitar, be sure you take it for service or repair to someone who knows what they are doing and "like" Emmons guitars (there are "a few" who do) and certainly not to someone with an alterior motive or agenda. Make sure it someone who is interested in preserving your Emmons rather than destroying it for their own personal gain.
I'm through!
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Paul Redmond
- Posts: 1167
- Joined: 3 Apr 2006 12:01 am
- Location: Illinois, USA
Perhaps I should have addressed my post directly to Mike Cass to whom it was intended. I have no ambitions toward promoting my own guitars. Quite the contrary, they speak for themselves. I certainly wouldn't expect anyone to trade in an Emmons for one of mine. Never have, never would!!
No, I never was contacted by you to construct a pedal Dobro. But I WAS contacted by Mike Cass at that point in time. Again, pardon my neglect in not addressing the prior post more specifically. He wanted a pull system made for $500. I couldn't do it for that amount...the deal fell thru. I DID take it as a compliment that a steel picker of his stature would single me out as a prospective purveyor of one of his ideas. How could I not feel a bit flattered? At the time I believe he was working for Tom T. Hall.
I can't speak authoritatively on Charlie Ward's workmanship. I do know that he never had a guitar come back to him for slovenly workmanship. If you have experienced the malady of 'butchered-up' guitars that were assembled by him, my guess is that the owners of those guitars tried to 'fix it all' themselves and got into deeper water than what they anticipated. I run into those scenarios all the time in my shop. Someone thinks they actually know how to make necessary mods to their guitar, and out of desperation, when they finally realize they're in over their heads, they cry out for help and send it my way. Most usually the damage they have done to the guitar is not fatal. The 'rest of the story' would be prudent here where Charlie's workmanship is in question.
My only contention in this thread was that if a guitar needed some form of compensation, then it was an outright admission that the instrument NEEDED compensation in the first place. If not, the builder would never have added the compensation means in the first place. Nothing more...nothing less. No negative aspersions on Emmons guitars. The minimal amount of cabinet drop exhibited on Emmons guitars would not be sufficient to coerce me into having one of those prybars installed on one. They IMO play just fine without the bar. Dave, if it'll make you feel any better, my Whitney's are the absolute worst to work on. They were never intended to be a so-called 'user-friendly' guitar but rather one to be set up once 'and forget it'. I won't use the Forum to 'promote' their virtues. I don't need to. In your off-time, ask Lloyd Green about them.
PRR
No, I never was contacted by you to construct a pedal Dobro. But I WAS contacted by Mike Cass at that point in time. Again, pardon my neglect in not addressing the prior post more specifically. He wanted a pull system made for $500. I couldn't do it for that amount...the deal fell thru. I DID take it as a compliment that a steel picker of his stature would single me out as a prospective purveyor of one of his ideas. How could I not feel a bit flattered? At the time I believe he was working for Tom T. Hall.
I can't speak authoritatively on Charlie Ward's workmanship. I do know that he never had a guitar come back to him for slovenly workmanship. If you have experienced the malady of 'butchered-up' guitars that were assembled by him, my guess is that the owners of those guitars tried to 'fix it all' themselves and got into deeper water than what they anticipated. I run into those scenarios all the time in my shop. Someone thinks they actually know how to make necessary mods to their guitar, and out of desperation, when they finally realize they're in over their heads, they cry out for help and send it my way. Most usually the damage they have done to the guitar is not fatal. The 'rest of the story' would be prudent here where Charlie's workmanship is in question.
My only contention in this thread was that if a guitar needed some form of compensation, then it was an outright admission that the instrument NEEDED compensation in the first place. If not, the builder would never have added the compensation means in the first place. Nothing more...nothing less. No negative aspersions on Emmons guitars. The minimal amount of cabinet drop exhibited on Emmons guitars would not be sufficient to coerce me into having one of those prybars installed on one. They IMO play just fine without the bar. Dave, if it'll make you feel any better, my Whitney's are the absolute worst to work on. They were never intended to be a so-called 'user-friendly' guitar but rather one to be set up once 'and forget it'. I won't use the Forum to 'promote' their virtues. I don't need to. In your off-time, ask Lloyd Green about them.
PRR
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Jerry Roller
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Bob Hoffnar
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Didn't Zumsteels have a counterforce option on there non hybrid steels ? I have also seen a counterforce on a guitar rebuilt by Billy Cooper. I was hanging out with the Franklins a while back and Paul Sr was talking about an experiment he did at Sho Bud that was a string hooked to the changer that ran underneath the guitar that seemed to be the same concept as the counterforce.
Bob
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Mike Cass
Yep, I contacted Paul Redmond some 20 years ago about building me an 8 or 10 string changer for a pedal dobro idea I had at the time. Working off Shot's old original pedal dobro concept of pulling at the left end, and consulting with a couple of well known steel guitarists, I had it pretty well designed on paper and intended to build it with as many p/p parts as possible in its makeup, fingers, mounting, etc. This was due to the idea that the p/p changer as is seems to transmit sound vibrations into a body better than any others Id heard. Not alot to actually machine there. All I got was talk about Rockwell tolerances, etc, etc, and why it couldnt be built, $$ aside. The phone bills for those calls were more than the figure Paul stated above.
I did eventually get a friend and builder, Don Smith, to build one to my specs that suited my needs, and for a lot less than $500.00.
Now, if one more person posts about Charlie Ward's excellent work I may have to vomit I hate to speak ill of the departed, but Ive never seen more cluged up pos's than came out of his shop. If you consider a big ol' wood screw jammed(no pre-drilling)into the body in front of the RKL(thereby splitting the wood out nicely)as a legitimate forward knee lever stop then this is where that discussion ends. But I can go on...... a close friend sent 2 dissassembled p/p's to Mr. Ward. My friend requested 1 good guitar out of the 2 and Mr Ward could keep the rest and build himself a D-10 as payment. Quite a fair deal for both parties. The guitar that came back had unfinished endplates, not even Emmons, rather Marlen, milled by someone to roughly approximate the Emmons, but not shaped, centered or contoured in any way like the Emmons endplates, and barely buffed out at that. The keyheads I believe were Marlen as well. Upon closer inspection I saw that the setup was missing guide cranks and a multitude of parts necessary to make the guitar play correctly.
I couldnt even verify that the body was indeed manufactured by the Emmons Guitar Co. Inc. of Burlington, NC. My friend was somewhat unschooled as to the actual nature of his new axe and it was no great joy for me to have to inform him of this obvious attempt to forge an Emmons p/p guitar.
All in all not a bad sounding guitar, but the above items plus the deciet in ever undertaking such a scheme are reprehensible to me as a potential guitar buyer,player and repairman.
The best one however was Mr Ward enetering Skull's Lounge one night,approaching my newly restored D-10 '65 wraparound which was fresh off the bench, spit shined, and his comment was...."you know, I could really make a nice guitar out of that for you"
I had him ejected from the club, forthwith. Two pros who happened to be seated nearby expressed their shock at his comments and obvious lack of perception. Mr Ward also had a penchant for hoarding Emmons factory parts and replacing them with whatever he decided to unload on an unsuspecting customer, the very thing I called him on to his face in Knoxville one spring.
Thats the facts. Anyone who would knowingly admit to a business partnership with a person like that, I would tend to steer away from and mistrust any advice they might give on the subject of Emmons guitars, p/p or a/p.
Dave R, sorry that youre feeling that urge to split the forum, many here can benefit from your knowledge and wisdom. I too have left and come back a few times, my love for our instrument eventually superceeding the ignorance and ill will of some who post on here.
Im sure that those who seek would your contributions will continue to do so whether youre present or not,at least thats been my experience.
One more thing: I was whining to a friend one day about less-than reputable repairmen and he quietly informed me that their shoddy work would eventually be to my $$ benefit. He was correct as I too have had the unfortunate opprotunity to nullify some of the work performed by such poor contractors as Mr. Ward and a few more I'll not mention. Theres a sucker born every minute, and a conman waiting to sell them this new thing, that shiny new deal, this here thingamadoohickey that'll improve youre "whatever",....but the hucksters come and go.
Scotty once told me that a good reputation is easy to come by and hard to hang onto....how true.
I did eventually get a friend and builder, Don Smith, to build one to my specs that suited my needs, and for a lot less than $500.00.
Now, if one more person posts about Charlie Ward's excellent work I may have to vomit
I hate to speak ill of the departed, but Ive never seen more cluged up pos's than came out of his shop. If you consider a big ol' wood screw jammed(no pre-drilling)into the body in front of the RKL(thereby splitting the wood out nicely)as a legitimate forward knee lever stop then this is where that discussion ends. But I can go on...... a close friend sent 2 dissassembled p/p's to Mr. Ward. My friend requested 1 good guitar out of the 2 and Mr Ward could keep the rest and build himself a D-10 as payment. Quite a fair deal for both parties. The guitar that came back had unfinished endplates, not even Emmons, rather Marlen, milled by someone to roughly approximate the Emmons, but not shaped, centered or contoured in any way like the Emmons endplates, and barely buffed out at that. The keyheads I believe were Marlen as well. Upon closer inspection I saw that the setup was missing guide cranks and a multitude of parts necessary to make the guitar play correctly.I couldnt even verify that the body was indeed manufactured by the Emmons Guitar Co. Inc. of Burlington, NC. My friend was somewhat unschooled as to the actual nature of his new axe and it was no great joy for me to have to inform him of this obvious attempt to forge an Emmons p/p guitar.
All in all not a bad sounding guitar, but the above items plus the deciet in ever undertaking such a scheme are reprehensible to me as a potential guitar buyer,player and repairman.
The best one however was Mr Ward enetering Skull's Lounge one night,approaching my newly restored D-10 '65 wraparound which was fresh off the bench, spit shined, and his comment was...."you know, I could really make a nice guitar out of that for you"
I had him ejected from the club, forthwith. Two pros who happened to be seated nearby expressed their shock at his comments and obvious lack of perception. Mr Ward also had a penchant for hoarding Emmons factory parts and replacing them with whatever he decided to unload on an unsuspecting customer, the very thing I called him on to his face in Knoxville one spring. Thats the facts. Anyone who would knowingly admit to a business partnership with a person like that, I would tend to steer away from and mistrust any advice they might give on the subject of Emmons guitars, p/p or a/p.
Dave R, sorry that youre feeling that urge to split the forum, many here can benefit from your knowledge and wisdom. I too have left and come back a few times, my love for our instrument eventually superceeding the ignorance and ill will of some who post on here.
Im sure that those who seek would your contributions will continue to do so whether youre present or not,at least thats been my experience.
One more thing: I was whining to a friend one day about less-than reputable repairmen and he quietly informed me that their shoddy work would eventually be to my $$ benefit. He was correct as I too have had the unfortunate opprotunity to nullify some of the work performed by such poor contractors as Mr. Ward and a few more I'll not mention. Theres a sucker born every minute, and a conman waiting to sell them this new thing, that shiny new deal, this here thingamadoohickey that'll improve youre "whatever",....but the hucksters come and go.
Scotty once told me that a good reputation is easy to come by and hard to hang onto....how true.
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Dyke Corson
- Posts: 1047
- Joined: 4 Aug 1998 11:00 pm
- Location: Fairmount, IL USA
Well I have learned a lot about the counter force on this thread. I have lent my conter force guitar to a good friend, I never knew what I really had until reading this thread, but my friend can keep it as long as he wants, it's in good hands. 
Mike Cass is right about Charlie, and lucky for me Dr. Cass has fixed two Charlie butcher jobs for me. Charlie kept both of my "projects" for over a year. I never knew he had robbed lots of the original parts until it was pointed out by Mike and a few others.
Mike Cass is right about Charlie, and lucky for me Dr. Cass has fixed two Charlie butcher jobs for me. Charlie kept both of my "projects" for over a year. I never knew he had robbed lots of the original parts until it was pointed out by Mike and a few others.-
Jon Light (deceased)
- Posts: 14336
- Joined: 4 Aug 1998 11:00 pm
- Location: Saugerties, NY
Re: the Zum question; if I recall correctly (big if) Buddy posted that he had (or had access to) both a hybrid and a standard w/ counterforce (probably called something else, assuming that the term is a proprietary Emmons Guitar Co. thing) and that as much as he dug the hybrid, he chose the standard in order to have this feature.
Of course we all know that Zum is a poorly crafted guitar, proven by the need for a pry bar on the changer.
Of course we all know that Zum is a poorly crafted guitar, proven by the need for a pry bar on the changer.
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Tony Rankin
- Posts: 1015
- Joined: 22 Nov 1998 1:01 am
- Location: Land O’ Lakes, FL
Having owned two LeGrande III's, I have, with much interest, read and heard of players removing the counterforce mechanism. To hear about it always made me cringe because, to me, it was very easy to adjust and it worked like a charm...and the pedals were not stiff. I never spoke up about it, because I am a nobody in the steel guitar world.
I am glad that Mike and Dave have so clearly spoken on this subject. I'd hate for any more of these great guitars to be needlessly altered.
I am glad that Mike and Dave have so clearly spoken on this subject. I'd hate for any more of these great guitars to be needlessly altered.
Tony Rankin