"Looking" For Tone In The Wrong Places?

[Brint Hannay]

I really don't understand why some posters keep harping on the "Notes are more important than tone" theme.

War, disease, and famine are more important than notes. So I guess we should all immediately quit posting on this silly music forum altogether?

*********

I myself use different amp settings and tone settings on my guitars depending upon the gig. But I don't listen to a player or buy his recordings because I want to hear his "tone," or because he plays a particular guitar.

But it seems you may play a particular guitar because (in part) of its tone. Most people here are posting not in their capacity as listeners to others, but as players. Herb, you posted somewhere recently that you once bought a '66-'67 Emmons that had a "brash" tone that you couldn't tame, and you let it go in favor of other instruments. Why? You could still play whatever notes you wanted on it. Apparently you felt tone was one factor in expressing your soul.

*********

Well Herb, that makes (probably only) two of us.

The rest think that respect among your peers is something you can buy at the local musical instrument store.

Just once, I'd like to see one of these threads go without this preposterous allegation.

All these other people are blind to the wisdom only you are wise enough to understand? Discussing tone = not having a clue what music is about? You can only have one or the other, but not both? Give it a rest!

[Herb Steiner]

Brint
GOOD GRIEF!! Harping? I think I was the first poster to mention notes, and that was on PAGE EIGHTEEN!!!

I don't believe I ever stated that tone was NEVER a factor in my personal choice of guitar, though I did say I have enjoyed many different tones of other players and myself. That Emmons I mentioned in the other thread was one particular guitar that I chose not to keep because I had others I favored more.

What I was disappointed in was the ad hominem attacks that the thread devolved into. And I'm not gonna get involved in one here and now.

You've picked one particular guitar I made a comment about elsewhere and choose to throw it back in my face. Okay, so be it. That doesn't change my opinion I stated one bit, either here or in the other thread. Tone is not insignificant, but notes trump tone. Reece has his opinions, Sliff has his which he believes to be fact and chose to repeatedly reiterate it to the point of personal insult of a friend of mine, regardless of what his semantics are.

I also said that my opinion is not going to be changed by being drawn into yet another pissing match challenge of what? My opinion???

Hey, you've got yours, and I have mine. Gentlemen can agree to disagree. If you want to take it to the mattresses, go on ahead. It will be a lonely wrestling match for you.

BTW, I'm not a leg-humper or a hero-worshipper who hangs on every word of an idol. Maurice and I are colleagues and friends. Jim isn't the spawn of Satan and Reece doesn't walk on water. But I recognize gentlemanly behavior when I read it.

[Brint Hannay]

Herb, I apologize for the appearance of attacking you personally. My remark about "harping" was directed to Donny, who has posted essentially the same argument as the one I quoted from him probably a hundred times since I've been on the Forum.

I would like to re-state the point I was, more clumsily than I realized, trying to make. I simply feel this: This, or any, thread has a topic. It doesn't seem to me that posting "Such-and-such is more important than this topic" contributes to the topic. That's it.

I've posted a number of times previously in this thread, and I am very certain that you would find that all my posts have been entirely free of vitriol, rudeness, ad hominem attacks, name-calling, or coarseness of language. (In fact, I would beg you to take a look at them--particularly my post on page 15.) In short, I have tried, at least, to participate in a civilized, reasonable, well-meaning, and, yes, gentlemanly fashion. To have you respond to my previous post as if I was a villain of the piece is distressing to me, and gives me pause. Posting in writing on the internet can be a minefield.

[Herb Steiner]

Brint
If I've overreacted to what you've just posted, than you have my apology as well. I never villainized you, or accused you of rudeness, and I never insulted you personally, although there've been insults aplenty tossed about on this thread... repeatedly. I stated my opinion... which is just that: an opinion. It's not a "fact," it's an opinion. You don't have to agree. You are most certainly free to post on whatever topic you feel like. Whatever's important to you is important to you, so say it.

FWIW, IMO I've been on the receiving end of needless grief from Jim Sliff in the past, both publicly and privately, over innocent mistakes by the HOF Board (ultimately corrected and apologized for) that he chose unilaterally to interpret as insults demeaning to one of HIS heros. So his criticism of those who defer to the opinions of players more experienced than he as "hero-worshippers" is amusingly ironic to say the least. Anyway, I'm not gonna get into any more conflicts with him; it's pointless and totally immaterial to my life.

To have you respond to my previous post as if I was a villain of the piece is distressing to me, and gives me pause. Posting in writing on the internet can be a minefield.

I couldn't agree with you more.

[Georg Sørtun]

Georg help me out here. Why would you evaluate a guitar with an amp you would never use practically? I would thank that would be like judging the ride in a new car with out tires on it? Help me out here. thanks Fred

For me it's because that's how I've evaluate everything related to "produced sound" for the last 35 years or so - through a full-range, linear and neutral sound-chain, so it comes naturally to evaluate steels that way. In fact; my oldest dedicated steel-amp is built as linear and neutral as technically possible - by me, and I used it for years. The old amp is just a bit on the heavy side and in serious need of some TLC in order to perform its best, so, being pragmatic I chose to buy and use a new NV 112 - mainly because it's a standard and pretty light steel-amp.

The NV 112 isn't too bad a steel-amp, but it isn't anywhere near what anyone can call "linear" and/or "neutral". The old amp may still surface to beat the NV 112 and whatnot in the steel-amp world in any audible and measurable way imaginable, but at this stage it isn't important to me that it does, as long as I'm only gonna practice and play for the amusement of myself and a few others.

The advantage my preference amp has over most, if not all, steel-amps, is that the entire audible frequency range gets through perfectly clean - no distortion, eq'ing, dynamic limitation or phase-shifting - so the minutest nuances picked up by the steel's PU comes out unhindered and uncolored. Once you've heard that "full" sound of a steel you'll know there's no hiding behind picking styles, as every sub or supersonic characteristics of the instrument itself is presented no matter how it's played. Some will of course call this a disadvantage as they like to narrow in on and or enhance certain characteristics, but (to me) such a neutral, linear and full-range amp reveals the "true tone of a steel, any steel", and I see no point in looking any further for it.

Hope that helps.

Oh, and about judging the ride in a car with no tires on it... In comparison that would be like judging a steel's tone with no strings on it, and I most certainly wouldn't do that

[Fred Rushing]

Thank you Georg. Fred

[Don Brown, Sr.]

Georg, what you said, could in itself, become more argumentive among electronic Techs, and Gurus, as what this thread produced.

So shall we say, we'll suffice to say that you simply compare different steels, using the same amp. Otherwise, it opens up a whole can of electronic worms, shall we say..

[Georg Sørtun]

So shall we say, we'll suffice to say that you simply compare different steels, using the same amp. Otherwise, it opens up a whole can of electronic worms, shall we say..

Sure, no problem Don. I'm not particularly interested in opening for anything but the tone

[Donny Hinson]

I really don't understand why some posters keep harping on the "Notes are more important than tone" theme.

Just a guess...but I'd say it's because some posters keep "harping" on the philosophy that "tone is more important"!

And...speaking of preposterous*:
(your term, not mine)

War, disease, and famine are more important than notes. So I guess we should all immediately quit posting on this silly music forum altogether?

And lastly...

Discussing tone = not having a clue what music is about? You can only have one or the other, but not both? Give it a rest!

Not at all, I do believe tone is important. I do happen to also believe, however, that "tone" is not the be-all, end-all solution to a player's boredom or his lack of employment. I don't think that players usually get hired or fired on the basis of their "tone", but rather on the basis of their chops and their imagination, on what they can contribute musically to the band. Yes, I know it's a strange concept, but I believe that the emphasis should be put on playing and the players - not on endless, mostly fruitless searches for some elusive, ephemeral "sound".

And if professing that idea labels me as a "harper", "know-it-all", "guy with the cardboard ears", or just a general "a-hole", so be it.

[Twayn Williams]

Most musicians obsess about their tone. Just think about those Strad violins!!!!! Miles Davis talked about how he'd worked for years on his tone and if he couldn't hear his tone he might as well not play. I've know violinists to spend thousands of dollars on their bow alone searching for that elusive tone.

Are notes more important than tone? Well, that's another topic all-together! I'd have to say that if your tone is not up to your preference, your notes suffer. In other words, notes and tone are inseparable.

[Brint Hannay]

I really don't understand why some posters keep harping on the "Notes are more important than tone" theme.

Just a guess...but I'd say it's because some posters keep "harping" on the philosophy that "tone is more important"!

Really? I challenge you to find one post from anyone that says or even implies that tone is more important than notes. Your straw man doesn't exist.

And...speaking of preposterous*:
(your term, not mine)

War, disease, and famine are more important than notes. So I guess we should all immediately quit posting on this silly music forum altogether?

I believe you're not unfamiliar with the "eye roll" emoticon--it indicates, in instances like this, sarcasm.

Are notes more important than tone? Well, that's another topic all-together!

My point exactly! The rest of Twayn's post is good, too.

[Joe Miraglia]

Would you say that, you would sound or have better tone if you played a different guitar? If you could buy that Steel with that tone would it make a big difference in your playing.The people who make and sell steels would love your answer to be ,yes. Joe

[Georg Sørtun]

Would you say that, you would sound or have better tone if you played a different guitar?

"Better"; I have no idea, but different, yes, once I've grown accustomed to the instrument.

If you could buy that Steel with that tone would it make a big difference in your playing.

Over time, well, yes, probably...

The people who make and sell steels would love your answer to be ,yes.

Don't know about that, as a good steel isn't just tone, and so far none of the builders/sellers I've been in contact with has presented a convincing "case"

[Stephen Gregory]

Great players have a command of all the elements!

[Wayne Franco]

I would say if you are happy with your tone its just another thing you don't have to worry about so you can concentrate on the notes.

Wayne Franco

[Donny Hinson]

I challenge you to find one post from anyone that says or even implies that tone is more important than notes. Your straw man doesn't exist.

'Ya think not, sonny? Okay, here 'ya go:

A main starting point is TONE. Get your desired tone and all else will follow much easier. This is aided by getting the best instrument and amp you can afford / find.

I'd trade technical proficiency for tone any day. I have no interest in impressing other steel players with my playing.

One note with good tone well played is worth thousands of notes played with lousy tone

Honestly, Brint...

[Eric West]

"Looking" For Tone In The Wrong Places?

Like anywhere under the "topic"...

EJL

[Reece Anderson]

The answer to finding the perfect tone is to be in touch with one’s overall perception and identifying with their pre-conceived physiological reasoning .

To access one’s unique reasoning, one must first search for and identify the guitar which has the design, mechanics, features and color that best adhere’s to that which is compatible with one’s individual perception.

When this is achieved only then will they hear and "see the tone" they have been searching for. Until then……the search will continue.

[b0b]

The answer to finding the perfect tone is to be in touch with one’s overall perception and identifying with their pre-conceived physiological reasoning .

To access one’s unique reasoning, one must first search for and identify the guitar which has the design, mechanics, features and color that best adhere’s to that which is compatible with one’s individual perception.

When this is achieved only then will they hear and "see the tone" they have been searching for. Until then……the search will continue.

Doesn't "the perfect tone" depend on the song? Sierra and MSA allow quick pickup changes between songs. Takes less than 10 seconds to swap a pickup, and you suddenly have a very different tone. Which one is "perfect"? Both, perhaps. The perfect tone changes from moment to moment, in the context of the surrounding music. It even changes depending on who is listening - what's perfect to one person may be hideous to another.

[Joe Miraglia]

They say -Money can't buy happiness- Can it buy tone. Just looking Joe

[Dave Mudgett]

Money can't buy me love.
Money can't buy me happiness.
Money can't buy me tone.

That said, it can be damned useful at times if I just know what to do with it.

[Brint Hannay]

Donny--I appreciate that you made the effort to find quotes from posts. But I think you misunderstand the import of those quotes.

Come on, seriously--do you honestly think that any of those posters think that wrong, out of tune, poorly chosen, or sloppily executed notes are trumped if the tone is good?

If any of them are reading this and wish to contradict me, I'll stand corrected, but it's my belief not one of them would endorse the statement "Lousy playing with good tone is better than good playing with bad tone".

Jude said "...starting point...everything else will come easier". Doesn't sound like tone is the goal to me.

Chris's point clearly is in the context of distinguishing musicality from technical proficiency.

Jim said "well played".

People who post in any thread whose topic is about tone discuss...tone. It's safe to assume that the amount of attention each gives to tone varies with the individual. But there's no reason to assume that, because they are interested enough in tone to post about it, it's the primary focus of their musical lives.

[b0b]

I will confess to tone envy every time I hear an Emmons push-pull through a Fender Twin Reverb. It doesn't matter if the player is good or bad. It never made me want to own that equipment, though. Too heavy, too tempermental, too inflexible.

I believe that combination is unique, and that I could identify it blindfolded. Prove me wrong, Reece!

[Reece Anderson]

b0b…..as we both know, only in a perfect world could we ever expect to hear the perfect tone for every song we play.

However, I agree with you in that there’s no question that having the ability to quickly change pickups “on the fly” is a marvelous advantage. I have also always felt that the amplifier control panel should be easily accessible by being close by on the players right, which could also be helpful in achieving the desired tone for each song “on the fly”.

That which is “perfect” is in the eye’s/ear’s/perception of the player and each listener, and…… who’s to say everyone hears the exact same tone at the same time. I believe the answer to musical contentment and advancement is pleasing ourselves with the tone "we" like, and not concerning ourselves with the opinions of others.

……….most importantly, listen enjoy and appreciate everyone’s playing and tone and never try to compete with anyone but ourselves.

[Twayn Williams]

To access one’s unique reasoning, one must first search for and identify the guitar which has the design, mechanics, features and color that best adhere’s to that which is compatible with one’s individual perception.

With respect, I have to disagree with one part of this, and that is that "color" has anything to do with tone, even the perception of tone. I really do not believe this to be true (unless, of course the perceiver has synesthesia!)

Now, I DO believe that the appearance (i.e. "color") of the guitar can affect a player's enjoyment of the instrument. As an example, I hate pointy headstock 6-string guitars. It wouldn't matter to me how good they might sound, I still won't play one if I can get the same sound in a different design. I choose my GFI over a Carter because I liked the look of the GFI better. I like the look of my Goldtone over my Chandler, but I vastly prefer the tone of my Chandler.