To Twang or not to twang?

ajm · Post by **ajm** » 2 Nov 2002 8:26 am

Some of you guys are making one of the oldest mistakes in the book. You are assuming that musicians (for that matter, anyone involved with the music business, like reviewers, DJs, sound people, vocalists, salesmen, club owners, band members' wives, etc.) know something about music.

I've touched on this before here. Forget about the general public (who often consider themselves "experts") for a minute. How many MUSICIANS do you know who do not know what a steel guitar (or pedal steel) is? How many of you have talked to a country musician who does not know what one is? It's frustrating, but it's a cross that we have to bear. Deal with it.

Someone once said that "If it sounds good, it is good". Jimi Hendrix once said that "It's not styles that clash, it's people that clash". I contend that it's not the twangy sound that doesn't fit with a jazz tune. It's not the jazz tune that doesn't fit with the twangy sound. It's the musicians playing them that are the problem.

But I have to admit that I do have my limits. I don't know if I'd be drawn to a version of Purple Haze played on a Tele through a clean Twin. But then again, until I hear it I guess I won't know.

Looks like I have something to try this afternoon. And if it sounds good, it will be good.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 2 Nov 2002 8:39 am

The issue as far as I'm concerned is that, for a number of reasons, the steel guitar has a very limited profile in the jazz community. It's due to a myriad of issues that we can only guess at based on anectdotal evidence and common sense - the perceived "twang" of the instrument, the number of players, the knowledge of jazz shown by the players, the lack of exposure in journals and publications, etc. etc. etc..... The point is, it's easy to bellyache about the unfairness, but that won't correct anything. Does anyone actually have a realistic plan, or even an idea about would could be done to correct this. That is what should be debated, what the plan/ideas should be. It's pointless to debate the unfairness of it, or to blame jazz musicians or producers or whatever, since they don't care what we think. So what's the plan .. Any ideas?

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 2 Nov 2002 9:48 am

So what's the plan .. Any ideas?

Just do your thing, and don't worry about that.
What attracted you to steelguitar? Where you forced to listen? Keep that in mind, and play the **** out of your axe, for people that like it, and the biggest lover of it: Yourself!

------------------

my bands CODand TSC

Dr. Hugh Jeffreys · Post by **Dr. Hugh Jeffreys** » 2 Nov 2002 9:56 am

If one wants to become a SUPERSTEELER, he/she might trace the footsteps of ALBERT VESCOVO. When he left Memphis in the '50's, he went to Colorado to study guitar with the great Johnny Smith; a few years later, he went to the W. Coast. There he has done TV, Movies (i.e., Charlies' Angels, Fantasy Island), numerous TV variety shows, recorded/played with Stan Kenton, Les Brown, Alvino Rey...etc on & on. And he's still going strong, a member of the UCLA faculty jazz orchestra. He used to do some teaching; I don't know if he does now. He has done/doing great things for and with his steel. I hope he gets the recognition he deserves one day. (I met Johnny Smith at the Grate 'N Pinup in Miami Beach once; I learned how he retuned his guitar to record Moonlight in Vermont, etc. in closed harmony position; the tuning is fun to play with). Albert, being the intelligent gentleman that he is, was able to re-route what Johnny had taught him to the steel and has done great things. HJ

Roy Ayres · Post by **Roy Ayres** » 2 Nov 2002 10:13 am

Mike, I appreciate your starting this thread, and I have enjoyed reading the many opinions that have been expressed here. I agree with a comment you made about "twang" in your original post, where you stated, " . . . there are times and styles of music where it just doesn't fit." But I submit that there are many places where it does fit, and -- in fact -- is demanded by the musical context.

But I don't feel a need to have great concern over this. There were and are many sub-genres of jazz: the big band stuff like Stan Kenton; the small band jazz (often quartets) of guys like Hamp; the great horn men like Parker; BeBop; New Orleans jazz; etc. To me, the steel guitar is the basis of a whole NEW genre -- not jazz, not country, not pop -- just STEEL. I don't feel that we need to make our music fit into someone else's genre. I can get my kicks listening to Oswald, Little Roy, Jerry, Joaquin, Alveno, Buddy, Reese -- all of them and all of you.

And, speaking of "twang" I have heard jazz musicians put down Boots Randolph's chicken-clucking sound. But before Boots' time there was a great jazz sax man named Sultan Powell who used that same sound and style in playing all of the jazz standards. I heard him at Birdland, and he brought down the house full of jazz mucians and fans. The very fact that the steel CAN be used in so many different ways to play so many different sounds is what makes it unique. "Twang" is but one of the myriad of sounds that can be elicited from the steel -- and even "twang" sounds good in certain musical situations.

You guys who are still active in music just keep on advancing the instrument with your individual styles, techniques, tunings, tones, and all the other variables that make the steel what it is. No need to force it to fit into someone elses category.

Roy

Andy Alford · Post by **Andy Alford** » 2 Nov 2002 10:15 am

Mike

The answer maybe in the rainbow of ones mind.What ones hears well its in his or her ears.Music to one might be noise to another.

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 2 Nov 2002 10:41 am

In my local jazz station there's an album in rotation with prominant pedal steel all over it, the latest Brian Blades release. Also an album getting heavy play is forumite Orville Johnson's 'Slide and Joy', which features the dobro. So I don't think there's a conspiracy to keep out the steel. In my experience with jazz players locally I have found virtually no negative responses about the instrument. On the contrary, if I were a sax player with my jazz chops I doubt whether I'd ever play in town. Most of the players are really intrigued by the instrument.
But that doesn't mean that if you sit down a jazz musician and play one of our favorite tracks by our favorite steel players you are going to get a response like 'wow where has this unkown jazz icon been all my life'. It's going to be more like 'that's interesting, I didn't know you could do that on a steel guitar'. I think we just need to deal with the fact that most jazz players/fans aren't going to be as excited about our favorites as we are and not try to blame it on predjudice. I know that people like Buddy Emmons and Paul Franklin aren't trying to blame external factors on the lack of acclaim for their recordings in the mainstream jazz world. Buddy himself (on this forum and elsewhere) has said that he doesn't consider himself a jazz player, and I don't know any steel player who plays jazz better than Buddy.

------------------
www.tyack.com

Dave Birkett · Post by **Dave Birkett** » 2 Nov 2002 10:50 am

I've heard some Larry Coryell and Martin Taylor recordings when they're playing acoustic guitars (maybe even flattops) and their tone is as twangy as that of Doc Watson. It is unexpected and, at first blush, it does indeed sound inappropriate. But then what they're playing takes over and all is forgiven. BTW, "inappropriate" is an interesting word: not only does it mean not proper, but also not property of. Twang seems to be the property of country.

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 2 Nov 2002 10:54 am

I submit that there are many places where it does fit, and -- in fact -- is demanded by the musical context.

I don't disagree Roy. And in those situations, it should be used. My point is that we need to taylor our sound to fit the context. In the case of the album I mentioned, that was not done, and the record suffers as a result. The same tone might well be totally appropriate on a different recording.

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 2 Nov 2002 11:15 am

Mike- Great post! I read everyone's replys and there was a lot of good ideas and thoughts in them. I don't believe that I can add anything to them.

However....I had been lucky enough to play with horn men and small jazz situations. Hotels, Country clubes, restaurants,jam sessions, etc.We played a lot of what was called jazz, and everything else too.

In the 40's to the 60's I had plenty of work and was accepted by the Horn players.

I played a Gibson Electra-Harp just like the one Alvino Rey had. Tuned E6 lot like the C6 pedal job of today.

All we had was 6 pedals 8 strings, both feet on the pedals, no knee levers.

I listened a lot to George Shearing, Charlie Ventura, Paul Desmond, guys like that.

I learned the Chord style from Alvino Rey, but the jazz interpretations from the other guys. So in those days, I didn't have that "twang" as Mike put it.

I believe we don't have to prove anything to the jazz guys.

A whole new style evolved with the E9 tuning and A and B pedals. I had to learn it just like anyone else did.

But I never could get that true country "twang". Darn it!

That is what the Jazz guys hear on records and they think that is the steel sound.

If they heard Reece Anderson or Tom Morrell, they would change their way of thinking. But the general public has not been exposed in a big way to them.

They are wrong, of course, the steel is a lot more versatile than they can imagine...........al

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 2 Nov 2002 11:27 am

I understand completely Al...in those early days I worked with many groups that didn't use a guitar player, but never with a group without "horns"! The steel was accepted as long as he didn't do "slides" or "stretch any strings", or play any "open strings". www.genejones.com

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 2 Nov 2002 11:31 am

One thing you hardly ever hear on jazz radio, except for the occational open minded and tolerant college stations, are blatantly amplified electronic reverb sounds, overly bright EQ settings, and the tempered tunings that most steel players gravitate towards. It's really no wonder that all the idiomatic(and sometimes annoying)things that we've all come to love here on this forum are really not gonna grab the average jazz fan. Right or wrong, it's still considered not "hip" to admit liking anything C&W for most jazzers out there. (e.g. the old Buddy Rich quote concerning his "allergies"...)

Even though Django was an incredible player, I still don't hear his kind of jazz a whole heck of a lot on mainstream jazz radio. I think his brand of acoustic swing probably turns on more country musicians than just about anybody else. It wasnt until Charlie Christian came around that the standard of amplified string instruments started evolving into what is considered the "jazz guitar" sound of today....and that in itself took awhile.

It's gonna really take something totally different, but not too "gimicky", to turn the steel into an accepted jazz radio sound.

Chris Walke · Post by **Chris Walke** » 2 Nov 2002 12:03 pm

"Right or wrong, it's still considered not "hip" to admit liking anything C&W for most jazzers out there. "

SShhhh...don't tell Bill Frisell!!

Frisell is a guitarist who doesn't really change his tone for anything. Yet he finds a way to fit into just about any genre he tackles. He is also a fan of the steel guitar and features it on several albums.

I think Frisell's biggest strength (and the strength of the players he records with) is the fact that he can find the jazz in country, blues, rock, etc. And it goes both ways. He sure knows how to find the country in jazz, and so forth.

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 2 Nov 2002 12:08 pm

True story:

I was playing a gig with a band called Crack Sabbath here in Seattle, which could (very loosely) be described as 'jazz'. I just finished a 2 hour set with them and the leader/sax player Skerik (who has an international rep) asked me 'hey do you do any of those Joaquin Murphy steel instrumentals?' Not to typecast the steel, but because he loves Spade Cooley.

------------------
www.tyack.com

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 2 Nov 2002 12:18 pm

If one wants to become a SUPERSTEELER, he/she might trace the footsteps of ALBERT VESCOVO.

The difference between Al and every other steel player is that Al is not a steel player who plays jazz. He is a jazz musician who plays steel (as well as guitar and dixieland 4 string banjo.)

Al does not play in a country band. He has a gig every Thursday night with a jazz band that is unique in that they have a steel in the group, but is otherwise rather typical in instrumentation (guitar, piano, trumpet, trombone, bass and drums.) His concert last week (which everybody here but me missed) took place in a jazz club, with jazz musicians,(steel, piano bass and drums, no guitar or horn players) before an audience of jazz entheusiasts, who all loved what he did.

Al is accepted in jazz circles because he belongs there. His steel (a single MCI 12 string tuned to a C6) is a jazz instrument. His tone is similar to that of a jazz guitarist.

Al is one of the finest players I've ever heard. He is in the same league and Buddy and Reece. He deserves more recognition than he has received. I consider myself privileged to live close enough to him to be able to hear him play often.[This message was edited by Mike Perlowin on 02 November 2002 at 03:46 PM.]

Bob Knetzger · Post by **Bob Knetzger** » 2 Nov 2002 12:38 pm

Try this...read this entire thread, and every time you read "steel guitar" substitute "banjo."

And maybe drop in "Bela Fleck" or "Tony Trishka" or 'Allison Brown" for "Buddy Emmons" or "Doug Jernigann."

Still feel the same?

; - )

Roy Thomson · Post by **Roy Thomson** » 2 Nov 2002 1:07 pm

Twang: 1. Sharp, quick, ringing sound.
2. Harsh nasal vocal sound.

------------------
<A HREF="http://www.clictab.com/royt/tabmenu.htm ... abmenu.htm
</A>

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 2 Nov 2002 1:09 pm

I just came back from taking my son to his sax lesson with a new, very jazz-oriented teacher. This guy goes way back with a lot of the big names in jazz and is an outstanding player (and teacher, by the way).

Anyway, at one point in the lesson, he turns to me and says, "I hear you're a pedal steel player. So you must know Buddy Emmons, right?"

Well, I nearly dropped off my chair! Here was this "legit" sax-man telling ME about Buddy Emmons! He proceeded to tell me how much he loved the "Minors Aloud" album by Buddy and Lenny Breau, how he thought it was one of the best albums he'd ever heard, and raved on and on about Emmons and Breau.

I was dumbstruck, especially after reading this thread earlier in the day.

We departed with a promise that next time I'll lend him my "Jazz by Jernigan" CD. He can't wait to hear it.

Voila!

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 2 Nov 2002 2:49 pm

My experience has been almost all positive from working jazz players in NYC.I have no problem being accepted and the better I get the more gigs open up. (The gigs I have been getting are often way,way,way over my head but they dig the steel and I'm having fun) I don't think there needs to be any big stars or coherent plans to bring the steel into the jazz scene. Just more steel players willing to get out there and play. I meet old jazz guys that are into it and often know quite a bit about Emmons and Chalker. The young guys coming up out of the New School scene are way into the steel as a new voice to work with. The main response I get from the young guys is "Oh, man that is such a cool sound ! What is your phone number."

I would play in more of those bands but they don't pay well enough for me to give up my more commercial gigs.

As far as the initial post goes, who gives a crap what that guy thinks.

Bob[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 02 November 2002 at 03:00 PM.]

Billy Johnson · Post by **Billy Johnson** » 2 Nov 2002 2:56 pm

Wow!! Could it be that even "Jazz" musicians have different opinions between them??
I heard jazz on a tuba one time, it didn't sound anything like jazz guitar either and it was just a little too bassy for my taste. wow!! [This message was edited by Billy Johnson on 02 November 2002 at 03:11 PM.]

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 2 Nov 2002 3:44 pm

Again I must point out that the guy like Doug's playing, (as well as the stuff I played him by Buddy and Reece) and only objected to the tone of his guitar.

And again I suggest that eveybody listen to the album in question.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 2 Nov 2002 4:44 pm

Mike

It looks like your original point has been forgotten! A lively discussion has ensued nonetheless....

In the mid-90's, I was doing a tour of Germany with an 'Elvis' show. I found myself in the same hotel as Bucky - he was doing a jazz club with trombonist Jimmy Cleveland - and we had a chat that night in the bar. There was some good-natured ribbing about Telecasters v. archtops - he feigned a look of horror when I described my B-bender, and I pulled his leg about adding strings to his guitar (he plays a seven-string) - but, when he learned that I played steel as well, he was quick to mention the album he made with Doug, and added some very positive comments about the experience.

I'm afraid I STILL have never heard this record ('though I have all of Doug's other releases), so I'm unable to give an opinion about his tone. I can attest to the fact that Bucky didn't say anything detrimental, though - quite the opposite!

Dare I say this? I don't care for Buddy's tone on his New York session all those years ago. I know he's expressed his frustration with the way that day went for him - as ground-breaking as his playing must have seemed in '63, I wonder if the harshness of his sound prejudiced those guys against the instrument, despite Buddy's obvious ability...

------------------
Roger Rettig

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 2 Nov 2002 4:58 pm

Roger
If you ever see Bucky P.again,ask him if he still has his Fender Jazzmaster Guitar,,and ask him where he got it..OK?

1965 Bucky played a Jazzmaster and till today
still uses that same guitar on many sessions
as well as live dates.

I think this thread is going "NO WHERE". And
it should stay where it came from,,"NO WHERE.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 2 Nov 2002 5:09 pm

Jody

I don't know about this 'thread' going 'nowhere' - it's as valid as a great many others on the Forum. There are a number of different viewpoints expressed on a myriad of subjects, but rarely do I read of someone publicly changing their stance as a result...

Regarding Bucky: He did tell me he had a Jazzmaster - as I said, the leg-pulling was good-natured.

Roger

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 2 Nov 2002 6:07 pm

I don't think jazz musicians have quite as much problem with the sound of pedal steel as much as jazz radio program directors might have. Most of the really great players that I know show alot of interest in the steel's possibilities.