How did the steel guitar get into country music?

Orville Johnson · Post by **Orville Johnson** » 10 Jun 2005 4:50 pm

"...today's PSG and the way it's played, is NOTHING like'slide'instruments."

could you play pedal steel without a slide bar? no? then i'd have to say there is a relationship.

"I'm just saying that while the evolution is obvious..."

there you go, back on topic!

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 11 Jun 2005 6:32 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
made the jump into country music?
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I think that's what's making the answer difficult to come up with. It's only today that genres are so categorized and labelled.
For the record, the term "country & western" was officially born in 1949, when it started to be used by Billboard as a category. I think the steel's inclusion in this sort of music predated that.
Some people do Jimmy Rodgers is the father of country music...maybe he is... even though he recorded with ragtime sounding rhythm sections and horn players. Same for Emmett Miller. The Dorsey brothers and Jack Teagarden in the studio bands !
So, that's why I think it's a hard question to answer. Which came first ?
-John
p.s. I still laugh at the pictures of Bill Monroe's early band, with the accordian player. ha.

Ron Whitfield · Post by **Ron Whitfield** » 11 Jun 2005 7:40 pm

Hey Orville, maybe 'pedal' steel can't be played without a bar, but I watched my buddie play steel in public the other day with the business end of an little bulb horn!

Tonky Honk!

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 11 Jun 2005 8:05 pm

As a matter of fact, you make an EXCELLENT point Orville!
YES, give me a song in E or A or even D and I CAN play it without a bar.

And that makes my case EXACTLY!

Ummm... B also, now that I think about it.[This message was edited by Marty Pollard on 11 June 2005 at 10:10 PM.]

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 11 Jun 2005 9:51 pm

b0b, are there any more of those Steel Guitarist mags in your inventory? There's a lot of excellent and relevant information in the "History of Western Swing" series contained in issues #2 through #4 and issue #5 has a great article on the history of the hawaiian guitar. Here's your marketing opportunity, as in "hold the product a little higher, please"....

While he is undeniably the first such artist to genrate the attention (and the ensuing revenue stream) of a nationwide audience, I think you'll find that the "country" music label pre-dates Jimmie Rodgers by a considerable number of years.

For many years "country" and "western" music were considered to be two mutually exclusive genres, with different labels, artists, geographical sources, distribution systems and audiences.

Let's not forget that as late as the 1940's the musicians union wouldn't let Bob Wills and his group join because it featured hawaiian guitar, fiddles AND horns at the same time and everybody knew that whatever it was that they were playing wasn't really MUSIC.[This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 11 June 2005 at 11:06 PM.]

Archie Nicol R.I.P. · Post by **Archie Nicol R.I.P.** » 12 Jun 2005 2:53 am

It sneaked in through the `bar` during a `lap` dance.

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 12 Jun 2005 6:45 am

As someone who plays Dobro, Weissenborn, and is learning Lap Steel and Pedal Steel for me, for the most part, each instrument is unique and I've found little that I learned on Dobro that I could apply to the Lap and Pedal Steel. Certainly the Dobro and Weissenborn are the most similar but Dobro style which relys on lots of rolls, pull offs and hammer ons is so dissimilar to lap and certainly pedal steel that it really is like learning a new instrument. The only similarity is that I'm used to the intonation requred using a bar over strings but moving from a Stevens bar to a bullet bar took a lot of adjustment.

As far as why Pedal steel became associated with country, that is an interesting question. The question I have is why it did not become more associated with Jazz. Many of the earliest steel recordings, from Sol Hoppi on, were very much in the contemporary jazz idiom of the day. Why it did not evolve beyond the 30's in Jazz is a mystery to me.

Bryan Bradfield · Post by **Bryan Bradfield** » 12 Jun 2005 8:47 am

Bill. You said:

"As someone who plays Dobro,Weissenborn, and is learning Lap Steel and Pedal Steel for me, for the most part, each instrument is unique and I've found little that I learned on Dobro that I could apply to the Lap and Pedal Steel."

What tunings did you go to with each new instrument?

Was there a logical progression in the choices of tunings, or did you go to widely different tunings with each new instrument, which did not build upon the knowledge gained in the prior instrument?

This is a question from one who is trying to evolve gently from one tuning to the next in this evolution of instruments, which I believe are all closely related.

By the way, didn't some of the earliest successful pedal steel players usually modify Fender, and other non-pedal steels? That would not only help link the instrument ancestries, but would also support the slow evolution of tuning changes.

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 12 Jun 2005 3:18 pm

Well Dobro is in the traditional gbdgbd tuning which was new to me when I first started playing Dobro. I had played slide and finger style guitar and was used to open D and open G tunings (although the Other G tuning). When I learned Weisenborn I tuned to an 0pen D tuning so I was already used to that.

When I moved to lap steel I experimented a lot and played mostly with c6 tuning, which was similar to Dobro G but different as well.

On Pedal I'm on a Universal 12 string E9/b6. So to answer your question: yes I played with a number of new tunings and that has added to the learning curve. I've also experimented with Sacred Steel E tuning, a6 (which is basically c6) and Leavite tuning.

I now have settled on C6 ( Reece's 12 sting version for my Superslide 12 string) D tuning for my two Weisenborns and my Rick 6 string, G tuning for my Dobro, and Universal for the Pedal.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 12 Jun 2005 5:39 pm

Cliff Carlisle, as already mentioned, deserves the majority of credit for introducing the Hawaiian guitar into country music. Whether or not the steel first used in country music was acoustic or electric is rather immaterial, the technique is identical.

Cliff learned steel from recordings of Frank Ferera (several spellings exist on his last name), who is credited with introducing the Hawaiian guitar to the mainland around 1900. Cliff cut his first record in 1924, and he featured both country songs and Hawaiian numbers in his playing. Bob Dunne, who joined the Wills' Doughboys in 1934, was one of the first to use an electric steel guitar. He may have gotten the idea from Roger Crandell, who used an electric steel guitar which he made in 1932 to play country music. (Roger also claimed to have invented the first pedal steel in 1933.)

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 12 Jun 2005 5:47 pm

I keep hearing generic references to the 1920's hawaiian music craze, which introduced the steel to popular music of the day, but.... I never hear any concrete references for it.
Surely someone on this Forum knows something about that.
Fill us in.
-John

Ron Whitfield · Post by **Ron Whitfield** » 12 Jun 2005 6:36 pm

As I mentioned, it was indeed the 1918 event that took what had already been around for years and catapulted it into popularity. This lead to Hawaiian troupes joining the vaudville circuit and such, and thus American audiences having the opportunity to see real Hawaiians/Polynesians perform before their eyes took to the new guitar sound like never before. Since many US mainlanders had guitars already, raising the nut was simple and allowed them to 'get it on' Hawaiian style. That's were Jerry Byrd and countless others got their intro to steel guitar. In it's heyday's, the steel was second only to piano in the amount of households that included one.

And gentlemen please, it's spelled Hawaii/Hawaiian with a capital H, just like your particular Province/State's name starts with a capital letter. Anything else is slighting the people and the 50th State of the Union.
Unintentional I'm sure, but I see it too often.[This message was edited by Ron Whitfield on 12 June 2005 at 07:41 PM.]

Larry W. Jones · Post by **Larry W. Jones** » 12 Jun 2005 8:31 pm

Here's a little history lesson from hulapages.com: http://www.squareone.org/Hapa/

Until 1912, most Hawaiian songs were written in the Hawaiian language. That year, a stage play opened on Broadway, Bird of Paradise, which featured five Hawaiian musicians. Songs included in the show were "Mauna Kea," "Old Plantation (Kuu Home)" and "Waialae." The play was a success, and The New York Times called the music "weirdly sensuous." The play toured extensively and has been filmed twice.
Then in 1915 a troupe of Hawaiian entertainers went to the Panama-Pacific International Exposition in San Francisco and, in the Territory of Hawaii pavilion, the main attraction proved to be a show of Hawaiian music and hula performed by The Royal Hawaiian Quartette, led by George E. K. Awai.
Suddenly, every Tin Pan Alley tunesmith decided to write Hawaiian songs--with English words, a few words in Hawaiian, and often, pseudo-Pidgen gibberish. By 1916, there were hundreds of Hapa Haole (half "foreign") tunes written. That same year, more Hawaiian records were sold on the mainland than any other type of music. And they came in all the popular styles of the day: in ragtime, blues, jazz, foxtrot and waltz tempos, as "shimmy" dances and--even--in traditional hula tempos, but jazzed up a bit.

Over the years, most of these songs with English lyrics reflected the music of their times. There were silly, wacky songs in the 20s, swing in the 30s, rock 'n' roll in the 50s, surf-style in the 60s and so on. Many New York and Hawaiian composers provided the introductory verse common to published pop songs, but that part was rarely performed. The rest--usually put to hula rhythms--became the songs everyone heard.

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<marquee direction="up" scrolldelay="400"> <center>It ain't got that FEELIN' if it ain't got that STEELIN'!</center></marquee>

Orville Johnson · Post by **Orville Johnson** » 12 Jun 2005 9:18 pm

a little more on the introduction of Hawaiian music to the mainland. Chris Knutsen lived in the pacific NW around the turn of the century and was building harp guitars. he visited two expos that pre-dated the SF 1915 event both of which featured Hawaiian musicians. the Lewis & Clark Expo in 1905 in Portland OR and the Alaska-Yukon-Pacific Expo in Seattle WA in 1909. He was fascinated with the music and developed the first hollow-neck lap guitars that bore his name and were the precursors of the Weissenborns, made later on by a guy who originally worked for Knutsen.
There's a book on Knutsen available (don't recall the name) and a website run by Gregg Miner which you can Google up and see many pictures of the early Knutsen guitars.

R. L. Jones · Post by **R. L. Jones** » 18 Jun 2005 7:13 pm

seems as many Ideas and answers as we have players ,

Question was how did Steel guitar get in Country Music , Oswald ( Pete Kirby_) played the Banjo in a band . He met a Rudy Wakiki, who taught him to play the Hawiian Accoustic steel guitar . Oswald was playing country music on the steel guitar , Manad=ger heard him and told Oewald , if he were going to play in the band he would now play hawiian steel guitar . ( Per ) Pete Kirby

have used old spice bottle to play with , when no steel was available ,,

Oh one note ,this guitar has been called steel guitar ,because you use steel to play it with

R. L.

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 18 Jun 2005 7:24 pm

There's a book on Knutsen available (don't recall the name) and a website run by Gregg Miner

Website - The Hawaiian Guitars Of Chris Knutsen

Book - Chris J.Knutsen: From Harp Guitars To The New Hawaiian Family by Noe and Most.

Highly recommended.

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

Chris Scruggs · Post by **Chris Scruggs** » 19 Jun 2005 10:54 pm

Marty,

I've been reading your posts, and while I se where you're coming from, here's a few things I'd like to say:

Listen to "Admirable Byrd" by Jerry Byrd and tell me the pedal steel is a completely different instrument. Just because a standard guitar has a B-Bender doesn't make it a completely different instrument from any other standard guitar, and that's basically the same mechanism as a pedal.

You're right. A banjo isn't a steel guitar. It takes more than fingerpicks to make a steel guitar, it takes a steel bar. A banjo isn't played with a steel bar (heck, clawhammer banjo isn't even played with fingerpicks), and is therefore not a steel guitar. And you can play a Dobro or straight steel steel without a bar (again, listen to "Chime In" on the above mentioned Byrd LP).

Basically, "violin is to guitar as Dobro is to pedal steel" just isn't a convincing comparison in my book. Jerry Douglas' right hand playing is different from a pedal steel players. Not because his guitar lacks pedals, but because he plays in a different musical style. Johnny Sibert played electric steel guitar close to that of a dobro player, and Alvino Rey played pedal steel nothing like those who would follow him. It's the same as Jimmy Martin playing a different style of standard guitar than Grady Martin (their instruments are related, even though they're not).

Of course the two (pedal and non-pedal steel) are different, but they are still in the same musical family, they are both Hawaiian steel guitars. The gradual evolution over the first half of the 20th century is what keeps a Stella with a warped neck and a D-10 8/5 Emmons so close. It's a beautiful thing, I think. So different, yet still so close.

Most steel tunings from Hawaii were based in either E or A chords. The concept behing Bud Isaacs tuning, was he could have E7 and A6 on the same tuning. How he stumbled upon that "gliss", and why he chose to make a style of it, I don't know, but it sure did change things. However, is his two pedal Bigsby guitar that different from any other Bigsby D-8 that didn't have tone raising pedals? My point is, it's still the same musical instrument.

And on the subject as bar slants, Buddy Emmons, Lloyd Green, Weldon Myrick, Jimmy Day, and countless other "pedal pushers" consider this fine art to be a cornerstone of their playing. I don't see how one can view the pedals as playing a bigger role in steel playing than the actual steel does. If I had started on pedals, I might think a little differently, but a tone bar is more than just a vibrating capo.

Just my thoughts,

CS

P.S.
This next song is in C#.

[This message was edited by Chris Scruggs on 20 June 2005 at 12:03 AM.]

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 20 Jun 2005 7:46 am

Chris (I had kinda forgotten this thread), sometimes the ability to exactly express myself eludes me and that may be the problem behind my concept here.

One comment made quite a few times here and in 'Bar Slants' regards having started on pedal or non-pedal. I started on pedal (after wood-shedding your grampa's stuff on b@nj0 for 5 years). A few years ago I bought a dobro and a tele.

The only thing they all have in common for me is the basic right hand technique of using finger picks and rolls.
BUT; I think differently when playing dobro than pedal; and not just a little diff but like it's a completely diff instrument.

One thing I've noticed is that some guys play pedal mostly from the perspective that the pedals give them new/altered tunings on an otherwise 'static' neck, ie: mash a pedal then slide and slant your way around to find the scale tones and chord grips you want.

The other guys, Green being the epitome, make the pedals the focal point of the actual real-time playing, IN PLACE OF, sliding and slanting around a static tuning. In other words, the pedals are dynamic within the style, not passive 'tuning changers'; so that we hear constantly changing voices harmonizing or counterpointing; glissing from tone to tone WITHIN a phrase.

This is not available in the same fundamental way on a non-pedal instrument.

So, THAT, my dear friends, is how steel got into country music.

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 24 Jun 2005 7:55 am

Everyone seems to be in general agreement that acoustic, lap and pedal guitars are at least "kissing cousins", but I had never heard the definition "slide guitar" used in reference to a steel guitar (lap or pedal)until the last three or four years, and it was by the twenty-something musicians that I was working with.

For many years I had always associated a slide guitar as a being a standard guitar played with a metal sleeve or stall worn over one finger. Blues were the original venue, but later some of the rock guitarists also used the one finger slide for special effects.

At first I attempted to explain what I thought was the difference in a "slide" guitar and a "steel" guitar, but I was usually met with a blank stare, so I finally accepted that to younger musicians any and every guitar that is played with an object instead of fingering...is defined by them as a "slide" guitar.

Definitions and language seem to change from one generation to the next...and I accept that.

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[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 28 June 2005 at 04:04 PM.]