What other famous LP moments were fabricated?

Dan Sawyer · Post by **Dan Sawyer** » 17 Jan 2005 2:46 pm

Andy, Thanks for that. What a great story about Ella.

About Jay Graydon; he is a friend and colleague of mine. The reason there were so many takes on Peg is not because Jay couldn't play a great solo all the way through. It was because of Steely Dan's nit-picking studio process. They were famous for taking years to produce records. It wasn't uncommon for them to hire 4 different drummers to play on a tune, then spend few days with each one getting the "perfect" groove, punching each quarter note if neccesary. After all this, they would then spend another week listening to all the drummer's performances to find out which one sounded the best on the chorus, the intro, etc. Then they would use that for the final drum track! So, Jay was used the same way. He played many versions of the solo, with lots of punching in untill the Steely guys were happy.

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 17 Jan 2005 11:40 pm

Jeez guys - y'all sound like you just fell off the turnip truck. Welcome to show biz. Gigs is gigs and records is records. Speaking of splices, "C'mon Let's Go" by Richie Valens has countless splices in it but are expertly done and virtually undetectable. However,the two weirdest splices I ever heard were in the solo section of the radio single version of "Sunshine of Your Love" by Cream and the one in the Chuck Berry tune "No Money Down" where the tune speeds up and goes slightly sharp on the downbeat of one of the choruses. There's also a downward tempo shift at the beginning of the solo on "Street Fightin Man" by the Stones but thanks to engineer Jimmy Miller,(who accidently thrashed the multi-track tape on the 2nd half of the #1 take and secretly spliced the 2nd half of the 2nd best take onto it before the band returned from lunch)and then cleverly masked the splice by the introduction a sloppily played maracha overdub at that point but you can hear it if you listen for it. BTW,I hate to pop anyone's bubble but I'd say that at least 90% of "Live" records are doctored if not outright phoney. Always have been and still are. Worse yet of course are doctored and outright phoney live GIGS. -MJ-

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 18 Jan 2005 2:40 am

There are almost no classical symphony recordings released in the last 20 years,
that were not edits of MANY different takes.

I was in the Studio with DOnald Fagin several years back, and yes they wil record several tracks and decide what they like.

He will have an A roll (23 of 24 channels) on machine 1 with the basic tracks,

and then differing B rolls synced on machine 2
and record MANY tracks of dubs, then bounce the ones, or parts, they prefer to a master B reel for final mixing.

I don't mind composit work, but I don't care to be TOLD it is a live set,
I could care less about live a PLUS studio.

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 18 Jan 2005 3:17 am

I'm not talking about editing - I've worked in television for 20 years - so I know that you can't trust, with anything close to 100% verisimilitude, much of what you see. As Mike says, editing has been a part of recorded music since forever but we're talking mostly about famous moments in supposedly live, spontaneous concert recordings that were not as they were purported to be. A different ball of wax.

Smiley Roberts · Post by **Smiley Roberts** » 18 Jan 2005 4:49 am

I spoke w/ Linda Flanagan,(now Linda Blue) re: Ernest Tubb's "Midnight Jamboree" album. (Decca DL 74045) She told me that it was a "studio job",which didn't surprise me,because of the comparison of acoustics between the audience reaction,& the artists performances.

Back in 1975,I did a live album w/ Tommy Overstreet,at the "Silver Slipper" in Las Vegas. Dot Records # DSOD-2038) The album was a true live album,however,the audience reaction was "enhanced". The room was not a typical large Las Vegas room,therefore,the recording company,(Wally Heider of Hollywood,Ca.) "tripled" the audience reaction,making it sound like we were in some huge auditorium,in front of thousands of people. Before the show,I was asked to go out & "warm-up" the audience w/ some "test" applause. Little did I know that they were,all along,recording it for the album. I,now,listen to "live" albums w/ a "tuned" ear. I,also,was VERY UNHAPPY w/ the final mix.It sounded like half the band was out in the casino,which was not Heider's fault. It was the producer,Ricci Mareno's fault,while "mixing down",in Nashville.

------------------
<pre> ~ ~
©¿© It don't mean a thang,
mm if it ain't got that twang.
www.ntsga.com</pre>

[This message was edited by Smiley Roberts on 18 January 2005 at 04:55 AM.]

Glenn Suchan · Post by **Glenn Suchan** » 18 Jan 2005 9:23 am

It would be hard to believe any live recording would be perfect enough to pass muster (untouched) with the engineer and producer. Even legendary "live" recordings have had some "clams" corrected in the engineer's studio. The trick is to get the studio correction to sound (acoustically) like the master recording. In the old days it was a matter of "punching-in" (start recording) and "punching-out" (stop recording) at the right time. How seamless that ended up depended on how good the engineer's timing was and how fast his finger was. The risky thing was if the musician didn't nail the correction on the first try a little bit of the original recording would be lost and that patch had to be covered. If a second take wasn't good, chances were the "lost" patch was slightly longer. Nowadays, electronic gadgetry and a little help from "Pro Tools" goes a long way in cleaning up mistakes in performance. Oh yeah, and adding audience response if it wasn't as enthusiastic as the producer would have liked.

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn

Drew Howard · Post by **Drew Howard** » 18 Jan 2005 9:41 am

Great thread!

thanks guys,
Drew

------------------
Gazornktron T-16 w/ FranistatSUX2000 mod

Howard Tate · Post by **Howard Tate** » 18 Jan 2005 10:49 am

I heard that "Live at the Johnnie Mack Brown High School" by Road Hog Sam and the Cadilac Cowboys was faked.

Thomas Bancroft · Post by **Thomas Bancroft** » 18 Jan 2005 11:11 am

Peter Frampton has gone on record that the only overdub on "Frampton Comes Alive" is the acoustic guitar on "show me the way" as the road crew forgot to move a microphone during the performance.

Joey Ace · Post by **Joey Ace** » 18 Jan 2005 12:37 pm

The producer of Lou Reid's famous album "Rock and Roll Animal" told me this story.

The album was recorded live in a NYC club with the production board in a truck parked outside.

After testing the mikes that were set up for the crowd noise, someone leaned on a cable and disconnected it.

Those channels were not monitered during the performance, so the missing crowd noise was not noticed until later.

The label had some live John Denver tracks that they used to cover the applause.

I find it really funny, since Lou Reid and John Denver audiences are about as different as you can get.

Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 18 Jan 2005 12:42 pm

About Jay Graydon; he is a friend and colleague of mine. The reason there were so many takes on Peg is not because Jay couldn't play a great solo all the way through.

I never meant to imply otherwise-he is one of my favorite guitpickers; just that that solo which sounds so "of a piece" was painstakingly crafted from many pieces. I also never meant to imply it was his idea to do so... a studio musician is a"tool" to the producer/artist as much as a tape deck or mixing board is...

Glenn Suchan · Post by **Glenn Suchan** » 18 Jan 2005 1:35 pm

Dave,

This may not be true with all producer/engineers, but it is with most: When you, as a singer/musician enter the recording studio, you are in the engineer and producer's domain. In that domain they will use your talents as a "tool". The more successfully they are able to do that, the more respect they will afford you. In the studio, a musician as a "star" projects "ego" to the engineer and producer. They have a job to do and expect musicians to have the same attitude. The story about Jay Graydon tells me the engineer/producer and Brecker and Fagen all had total confidence in him. Otherwise, he would have been outta there.

Regarding Steely Dan: Gary Katz was the producer for much of their recording. Gary is brilliant and incredibly innovative. Who else would be able to work with Brecker and Fagen? In fact, Gary may have pioneered the modern approach to the "cut & paste" technique in the studio. One story I heard was a new engineer had accidently erased some drum and bass tracks that were painstakenly laid down. Gary cut & pasted samples of the remaining tracks in an all night marathon. The lost tracks were "grafted" so close to the original in sound, when Donald and Walter arrived the next day they never suspected any mishap.

Gary Katz ranks with Tommy Dowd of Blue Note, Stax and Capricorn fame, and Jimmy Bowen of Nashville.

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn

OOOPS! Dave I just re-read your post and realized I said the samething you said but with about 300 more words. My bad.

[This message was edited by Glenn Suchan on 18 January 2005 at 01:44 PM.]

Chris Walke · Post by **Chris Walke** » 18 Jan 2005 4:51 pm

Along the lines of Cash's concert album, I heard that Cheap Trick's "Live at Budokan" was overdubbed with LOTS of crowd noise. As far as the performances, I don't know how much is real and how much overdubbed.

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 18 Jan 2005 6:28 pm

Saw somewhere that the Capitol Records "Beatles Live at the Hollywood Bowl 1964" had Paul's bass overdubbed...

And speaking of bass, how about Mingus on "The World's Greatest Jazz Concert" with Bird, Diz, Bud Powell and Max Roach- the bass on "Perdidio" (1st track) is way louder than the bass on any other cuts- 'cause he overdubbed it later- and man, it is SO far ahead of the beat at times it's unsettling!

------------------
http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

Bill Llewellyn · Post by **Bill Llewellyn** » 19 Jan 2005 8:33 am

A couple obvious not-really-live performances are the Beatles' "Seargent Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band" (opening track) and "Bye Bye Love" from Simon & Garfunkel's Bridge Over Troubled Water LP.

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 19 Jan 2005 9:24 am

Is it not safe to assume that ANY crowd noise on a live record has been added later?
I know any time we've recorded live, the audience was barely audible. I've heard live albums where the crowd was mixed up to the point of being annoying, then some where you couldn't tell it WAS a live record.

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 19 Jan 2005 9:52 am

When we did "Live at the Variety Playhouse" with Blueground Undergrass for Phoenix Rising Records, they requested "as much of the audience as you can get in there"- the CD was for a series of live recordings. The site engineer (Doug Oade)did a great job with the tracking, but when I went to mix, the audience tracks had distortion that made them unusable. Doug sent me a copy of a DAT tape from the board position, which had a great audience vibe- but since I was mixing at the time on an analog board with no automation, delaying the master tracks to sync with the board tracks from 150 feet away was a daunting task. I ended up spinning the audience tracks into the master by hand one song at a time. But it was at least the real audience... Another interesting thing about that recording- without ever consulting or paying the band, Phoenix negotiated a European release. There are apparently double-LP vinyl sets of that recording all over Europe that we never participated in. I got my copy off ebay. Ya gotta love the record business.

------------------
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 19 Jan 2005 9:12 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The "Live from Northern Quebec" medley on Gram Parsons' "GP" album was a studio job. Apparently they just brought in some friends, and used audience sounds from some live show. It was never pointed out, and for many years fans allegedly searched for more "lost tracks" from a Northern Quebec concert which never did take place.
-John
p.s. The medley is "Hickory Wind" and "Cash on the Barrelhead"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Actually, the medley was on "Grevious Angel", and the folks who made the crowd noises are clearly credited on the LP cover. It says "Background blah-blah on Northern Quebec Medley by Kim Fowley, Phil Kaufman, Ed Tickner, Jane and Joe Doe".

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)

Rick McDuffie · Post by **Rick McDuffie** » 20 Jan 2005 2:07 pm

I like the sound of a breaking glass just before "Hickory Wind". That's realistic!

Jon Light (deceased) · Post by **Jon Light (deceased)** » 20 Jan 2005 3:16 pm

Sgt. Pepper's wasn't live??!! But they said that they were such a lovely audience and that they'd love to take them home with them, they'd love to take them home!!! What a rip!

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 20 Jan 2005 5:09 pm

Yeah, and what about that laugh before "Billy Shears"-if the audience wasn't there, what the heck were they laughing at?

------------------
http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

Steve Stallings · Post by **Steve Stallings** » 25 Jan 2005 1:09 pm

Hmm... what about my two favorite "live Cd's"
"Live at Panther Hall" and "Buck Owens Carnegie Hall CD"?

------------------
God Bless,
Steve Stallings

Andrew Buhler · Post by **Andrew Buhler** » 25 Jan 2005 2:28 pm

The vocals on the Grateful Dead's Europe 72 are definitely overdubbed. Those guys never harmonized so well live. Perhaps I'll catch some slack on this next one, but the great Bobby Black's steel breaks on Commander Cody's "We've Got a Live One Here" sound overdubbed to me. If you listen closely to some of the breaks you can hear completely different steel tracks in the background--bleedthrough from the microphones? No offense to Mr. Black, of course.

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 25 Jan 2005 2:49 pm

b0b,
I stand corrected. Thank you.
-John

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 27 Jan 2005 4:44 am

"Authentic Hawaiian Guitar" on PlayaSound.. Jules Ah See (Hawaiian Trio)..
DESTROYED with vibes and percussion overdubbed much later by Yves H. Roche..
According to Michael Goldsen, (the owner of Criterion who leased the master to Yves Roche for him to tamper with), Yves Roche is "The final authority on South Sea Island music"
The "Final Authority" played vibes absolutely everywhere there was a gap and tried to play harmony to the steel guitar as well.. The album is basically a Vibes Solo with steel Guitar accompanyment..
Some kind of "Ego Trip"...
How would you like that to be done to your recordings after you died..?
http://www.waikiki-islanders.com/assets/multimedia/mp3/Authentic%20Hawaiian%20Guitar/

Basil
BTW the August 2004 issue of Aloha Dream has the letters from Criterion and Yves Roche re-printed as proof of this travesty..

------------------

Steel players do it without fretting

http://www.waikiki-islanders.com