Music and Politics don't mix!

Alvin Blaine · Post by **Alvin Blaine** » 20 Jul 2004 8:19 am

The Aladdin can fire her over this (I don't know if it's legal... her contract is probably pretty complicated), but it is her belief system she is speaking from, and it saddens and disgusts me a little bit that we are so accustomed to mindless commercialized music that we can't accept someone owning their own careers, and saying whatever the hell they want.

On the side of the casino,if she offended customers and they asked for their money back then the casino will do something about it.
After 18 years of playing in casinos out here I've learned one thing; Casino don't like to give away money. They may want you to think they do, but they really don't.
And if they have just one big roller complain then it doesn't matter who the star is they just wont be playing there again.

I do agree that the audiences reaction to things like this may be a little to much, and then the media takes hold of it and blows it into something bigger. Then someone goes and starts a thread about it and it just get worse.

I guess some folks are just real sensitive about their beliefs. It just get tough when both the audience and performer have strong beliefs.[This message was edited by Alvin Blaine on 20 July 2004 at 09:37 AM.]

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 20 Jul 2004 8:29 am

Brad, that was brilliant. If anyone thinks that music and politics don't mix just look at Dylan, The Byrds, Beatles, Rolling Stones or any number of groups from the sixties. I go with Chris Scruggs on this one. Besides the fact that the Oil Companies have taken over the Republican party and the U.S. government (look at the Carlyle Group), both miss Ronstadt and Michael Moore have every right as an American to express their opinions. The audience also has a right to react. I choose to support both Michael Moore and Ms. Ronstadt. I just hope something happens before the middle class is completely destroyed.

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 20 Jul 2004 8:44 am

Drew,
Rush spreading Lies & Hate? That's probably one of the most uninformed statements I've heard in a long time. Be specific! What lies? What hate? Rush is one of the most truthful people I've ever heard. I'm sorry if anything he says hits too close to home for some folks. Are you in that group?. A lot of people I've heard like to downgrade Rush, Sean Hannity, and some of those folks but it's amazing that they can never do it with facts. Whatever they say can't be disputed so they resort to calling names and that sort of thing. Have a great day....JH

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 20 Jul 2004 8:47 am

if i may, i'd like to add Woody Guthrie to Kevin's list.
Brad S, i dig what you're puttin' down

Joey Ace · Post by **Joey Ace** » 20 Jul 2004 8:51 am

Amen, Brother Kevin!

(a quick comment before someone locks this one)

Burr Oxley · Post by **Burr Oxley** » 20 Jul 2004 9:19 am

In my opinion, Ron Page is RIGHT ON THE MONEY! If I go to a performance, it's for the music, not some "star" to proclaim his/her political ideology. IMHO, performers who think that their opinions are avidly sought by we "civilians" are full of equine feces.
And, IMO, anyone whose opinions are easily swayed by those of some "star" are lacking in judgement or common sense.[This message was edited by Burr Oxley on 20 July 2004 at 10:24 AM.]

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 20 Jul 2004 9:22 am

Hey Ron,
I'm not clear on what part you think I got wrong. I'm just saying, no matter what side of the aisle you sit on, don't have a double-standard about the issue. That's all.

Alvin Blaine · Post by **Alvin Blaine** » 20 Jul 2004 9:23 am

"The Times They Are A-Changin'"
Is going to hear Bob Dylan sing political songs at some rally in the '60s the same as going to a casino to hear Ronstadt sing "Blue Bayou" only to have her tell you what her political beliefs are?

If they use a public forum to let you know their beliefs, either with music or in their public life, then I don't think its a problem because people should know what to expect.

Like an animal rights activist going to a Ted Nugget concert and being shocked and leaving upset. I don't have a problem with that because they should have known.

Then on Linda Ronstadt's behalf she was with Edmund G. "Jerry" Brown for a while when he was Governor of California. That audience should have known what they were getting into......

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 20 Jul 2004 9:45 am

is this relevant ?
(this is from CNN's vote box)
Should Linda Ronstadt have been kicked out of the Aladdin casino for dedicating a song to Michael Moore?

Yes 42% 53088 votes

No 58% 74157 votes
Total: 127245 votes

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 20 Jul 2004 9:46 am

"For there is a way that seemeth right to a man, but the way thereof is death."

A very nice German lady was once asked (long after the war), "How did you German's ever let Hitler rise to power". She replied, we really didn't realize it until we were enslaved by him and it was too late.

We do (so far) have a right to protest and have oppossing opinions in this country. Linda Rondstadt of course has that right. So does the man who made the film.

So did the Pharisees and Saducees and elders of the church when they protested Jesus. In any era of mankind, there are protesters and there are protesters.

History has proven that the Hitlers who rise to power PROTESTING, used their freedoms NOT so much to protest as to enslave. Sadam is another. In his case he seized power by forcing it. So did Castro. But the avenue which they chose was thru protesting.

The problem is, unless one is on the side of "good" versus evil, their protesting is against God, whether they believe it or not.

The entire population during Noah's time laughed and scoffed at Noah. They excercised their right to do that; almost to the person. But they were ON the side of evil since they had disobeyed God. So they felt they were right but God said the above quote.

So did the people of Sodom and Gamorah. And endless other peoples throughtout history. Those that protest for good, WILL always in the end win life's greatest battles. Those that protest for evil will always lose.

Such as the US and its "good" Allies in WWII. But sadly people do NOT learn from history. But the saddest part of all is, those who condone the use of protesting to further evil, under the cloak of "freedom" to protest.

It is NO accident the United States is THE most powerful and most blessed nation on earth. It did not just happen. There WAS and IS a reason for it.

Sadly, that reason is fast becoming overstomped by those who would use its freedoms to malign, hurt, destroy "good" versus evil.

The facts are, George Bush was HATED vehemently LONG before IRAQ. Indeed that is true. He was bitterly hated by many many many people LONG before IRAQ. There is a fundamental reason why he is hated soooooo badly. That reason is not new. It is from birth.

IRAQ is being "used" as a politically correct means of destroying him. But it will NOT work folks. Laugh, scoff, malign, hate all you wish. George Bush is a human being sinner. We ALL are. But he is a God-fearing sinner.

And whether anyone accepts it or not, He IS on the side of "good" versus evil. Linda Ronsdadt may state her opinions as long and as hard as she wishes. So can Barbara Streisand; or the maker of that film. They can go to sleep at night laughing about how they will bring to an end, THE....

"GWB who IS the terrorist. He is worse than Osama Bin Laden." Etc.

But Linda and Barbara and that film maker will loose the war, because they are on the side of "evil" versus good. They too are wretched sinners just like Bush is and every human that has ever walked on this earth is.

But they are on the wrong side of good versus evil in their protests. Jesus foretold everything that is happening today long ago.

Let me give you some more facts. Iraq is just the beginning. Bill Clinton, if he had done precisesly what Bush did, would be lauded all over America by the same folk who hate Bush for it. So would the mainstream media.

Iraq is the beginnning of the mightiest most horrendous war that will ever be fought. It will be a war against Israel. It was prophesised over 3000 yrs ago.

This war will be for one purpose and that is to "drive the jews into the sea". This is why there will NEVER be peace in Israel NEVER! It does not matter who is president of the United States.

The only reason it has not already happened is the United States is the most powerful defender of Israel the world has ever known. And that is as it should be. And I would to God it will always be. But sadly the US will turn from its righteousness and turn against Israel (also foretold long ago)

When this happens, the evil nations (including the US) and all other evil in all nations will try and assist the middle east in destroying Israel (foretold long ago). And the mightest most horrendous war in histroy will take place.

Over 1 million soldiers will die horrible deaths (it will be and atomic war). And the war will rage on for a very long time. But Israel will NOT be destroyed. They will NOT be driven into the sea. They ARE God's chosen people.

The most powerful force for good versus evil (Jesus) WILL come destroy all those that were on the wrong side of those protesters of evil versus good. And Jesus will end that horrible war and save Israel.

Scoff, malign, castigate, use evil debate, use hate openly or subtly all you want to. But as I stand on this earth the above IS Truth. And I am NOT the message!

I am only a lowly wretchedly sinful messenger.

My prayer is this. If only ONE person is brought to Salvation, EVEN if I am tarred and feathered, even if I am killed for it, it would have been worth it to save that person from the most horrible future this world has ever known.

Whoever you are, rergardless of your beliefs, listen to God speak to you in this post. Put away your biases for just a moment and hear truth. The words are NOT mine. They are his. HE said them. I didn't.

May Jesus bless each of you always,

carl

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 20 Jul 2004 9:46 am

Linda lost a bunch of fans, and probably gained some admirers from the publicity surrounding this incident.

The Aladdin probably will now have fans of Bush choosing to stay there, and detractors of the president choosing to stay elsewhere.

In both instances, the parties are accepting the consequences of their actions. The system is working, IMHO.

Performers have an opportunity to say what they will onstage, as is their right, just as it is the right of every American. I don't buy the argument "why should we listen to a leftist entertainer who doesn't know anything." Just as I don't buy the argument, "why should I listen to the opinion of a rightwing farmer/mechanic/retail store clerk/orthodontist/et.al. who doesn't know anything."

Both are speaking their opinions based on the limited knowledge we as a people are allowed to have, and based on what their values are and how they want this country to behave on the world stage.

Not knowing anything has NEVER been a reason to stop anyone from expressing a political opinion in our country, regardless of their profession or their celebrity. That, my friends, is what makes this country work, to whatever greater or lesser degree is does work.

BTW, though it hasn't been mentioned, the First Amendment restrictions apply only to Congress and state and local governments. The Aladdin was perfectly within its rights to cancel Linda's show. I would bet that future contracts will stipulate no specific references to any controversial political opinions.

Personally, Brad Sarno gets my nod of agreement here, though I do believe that the worldwide fundamentalist Islamic uprising we are experiencing is not a canard. Rather, the Western industrial complex, while worried mightily about the real threats posed to world stability by these Muslim terrorists, has found a way to profit from it regardless.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Jussi Huhtakangas · Post by **Jussi Huhtakangas** » 20 Jul 2004 9:46 am

Hmm, 1/4th of the audience didn't like it and walked out, 3/4th stayed and watched the show and Ms Rondstadt gets the boot. What if the 3/4th of the audience would go and strongly voice their opinion to support her? What would they do at the Aladdin? They were a majority, right?

Ron Page · Post by **Ron Page** » 20 Jul 2004 9:47 am

Jim,

I think what you got wrong is that the audience only reacts with the artists' speeches if they disagree. The audience makes their feelings known either way-- applauding or walking out. And, if they choose to walk-out, that's no less appropriate than applauding.

My man Merle has repeatedly defended The Dixie Chicks, and criticized their critics, based on their right to free speech. What about the audience's right to free "speech"? If they want to express a viewpoint that is largely unpopular-- outside the context of their art/craft-- then they need to be prepared for unexpected consequences.

Again, I maintain that the audience is largely taking exception to speeeches, not songs.

Regarding Michael Moore, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts. That's about as restrained as I can put it.

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HagFan

[This message was edited by Ron Page on 20 July 2004 at 10:50 AM.]

Ron Page · Post by **Ron Page** » 20 Jul 2004 10:10 am

I've edited and re-edited this several times. In the interest of not taking this thread far afield, I'm leaving it alone.

I doubt that I was on the verge of changing any minds on the subject anyway.

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HagFan

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 20 Jul 2004 10:22 am

The issue here in not her First Amendment rights, it is the cheap way she decides to excercise them and therefore cheapen them. Instead of introducing her music with something that relates to her music, she uses the occasion of a concert to fans who paid to only hear her sing to spew forth her political views.

She is a pig.

I was working a gig one night with Joan Baez. Now you know that all her life she has been a bed wetter so when you go to see her you expect to hear some sort of lame political crap. This was after the Marine complex had been bombed somewhere in one of those very peaceful and very loving Muslim countries. Baez made a comment on stage that she wished more Marines had been killed. There was quite a reaction from the crowd, BUT no walkouts etc. because her fans were used to hearing this.

The people who came to see LR did not come to hear her political views. They came to hear her sing. This was not the right situation to talk about Michael Moore.

He is a pig too.

It takes one pig to know another.

Mark Metdker · Post by **Mark Metdker** » 20 Jul 2004 10:31 am

Aw c'mon Bill. Tell us how you really feel!

Ron Page · Post by **Ron Page** » 20 Jul 2004 10:48 am

Isn’t Linda being at least a little hypocritical?.

"This is an election year, and I think we're in desperate trouble and it's time for people to speak up and not pipe down. It's a real conflict for me when I go to a concert and find out somebody in the audience is a Republican or fundamental Christian. It can cloud my enjoyment. I'd rather not know."

Anyway, it looks like she's well on the way to solving her stated dilema. I'd like to "Cheyney" her.

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HagFan
[This message was edited by Ron Page on 20 July 2004 at 11:51 AM.]

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 20 Jul 2004 10:54 am

I'm really sorry she came on like this as I've always been one of her biggest fans!! I'll still love her music and won't stop playing her recordings as I believe she's made some of the most important records to ever come out. The girl can sing anything she wants to. I love the old standards with Nelson Riddle and her country things but I've always thought she was one of the prime artists in the country rock movement of Southern California which is my favorite music to say the least. I'm just sorry that she had to end up this way, she was really a ground breaking artist so I'll always respect her for that but I'm really disapointed in this side of her...JH

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 20 Jul 2004 11:00 am

Having read and reread the Koran, I find it impossible to believe that these conflicts are entirely financial in origin. As stated by the purported author Muhammed, the goal of the Muslim faith is world domination. As stated in the book, all infidels must either convert or die. Support for Bin Laden and his policies runs somewhere between 40% to 60% in the Muslim world. Some liberals are really missing the boat on this one, because they haven't done the research. Read the book before you argue. I certainly can't take the exact opposite position of the American right, however; the exploitation of religious ideals for financial purposes is even more obvious, here and in Iraq. When we allow anyone to frame this as a simple white hat/black hat cowboy movie, it does great disservice to complex issues. When higher powers are held to be a better tool for governing human affairs than reason, bad things seem to happen because the higher powers sure do disagree. But then, if singers can't express their opinions, why should steel players be allowed to either?

Russ Young · Post by **Russ Young** » 20 Jul 2004 11:02 am

I wish I could characterize the situation better than Herb Steiner did ... but I can't. So I'll just say "yeah -- what Herb said!"

The facts are, George Bush was HATED vehemently LONG before IRAQ. Indeed that is true. He was bitterly hated by many many many people LONG before IRAQ.

I agree with Carl on this! He was so hated that a majority of the voters in the 2000 election voted against him ...[This message was edited by Russ Young on 20 July 2004 at 12:04 PM.]

Bill Simmons · Post by **Bill Simmons** » 20 Jul 2004 11:13 am

Linda lost my support with her bold prejudice statement in the San Diego Union Tribune (see Ron Page's above post). In my opinion only, she definitely now crossed the line...

I'm for free speech, but if a club hires you to perform your music...stick to what they hired you to do...entertain the people... Call a press conference or whatever to voice your opinion as a someone with influence, but to address it in that venue?!?! Again, her statement against the Republicans and fundamental Christians is very outrageous...sad, I still love her music.

George Kimery · Post by **George Kimery** » 20 Jul 2004 11:24 am

Linda was hired help, pure and simple. She was hired to sing, not to make a political speech. She has the right to speak freely about her political or other beliefs in situations where she has not been hired to sing. When you are hired to do a job, you do the job you were hired for. That is what a professional does. If she had been hired to "beat up" on Bush at a political rally, then OK if that is what she was hired for. Clearly, the Aladdan didn't hire her for this purpose, she was hired to sing. Just my 2 cents worth.

Orville Johnson · Post by **Orville Johnson** » 20 Jul 2004 11:29 am

for those who seem to think that when you buy a ticket to something you have a right to dictate what is presented i would suggest you stay home in front of your TV where you have an on/off button. when you buy a ticket to a concert (by any performer) you have a right to your seat PERIOD! if you don't like it, you have a right to boo and/or leave. the performer has a right to present whatever they want that is not prohibited by their contract.
according to a more complete report in the las vegas sun, apparently LR made her comments after returning for her encore, not during the main portion of her show... some people were already leaving and among those left a small number walked out. the majority of the people stayed and many cheered her.
music is an art form as well as just "entertainment" and art has a long history of commenting on politics and other horrible crimes. she has as much right to state her views as we steel players do in whatever forum we are able to commandeer.

Chris Scruggs · Post by **Chris Scruggs** » 20 Jul 2004 11:47 am

Mark,

I am 50% German.

I am also an American and hope dearly that someday they won't use phrases like "good American".

On the light side, at least Hitler was ELECTED in the first place.

CS

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 20 Jul 2004 11:48 am

In that article that Ron Page linked to, it says that she has been dedicating a song to Michael Moore on every night of this tour.